Machines Vs Hand-Stitching

[bluehorse]

Hi everyone! I am new to the forum and most certainly new to the leatherworking world!

I am debating on sewing machines... Here are my intentions:

I want to be able to sew horse tack such as breast collars, headstalls, and halters. Eventually, I would like to start builing a saddle or 2.

I have been looking at different machines and I am just curious to get input from anyone about their thoughts, opinions, and experiences with certain machines.

I am looking into the Tippman Boss Leather Sewing Machine as first choice...or would it be just as cost effective and easy to truly hand stitch with an awl?

I have also been looking at the Tech-Sew...for a motorized option.

Opinions, thoughts, and experiences DEFINITELY appreciated!!

Thanks in advance!

[TwinOaks]

Welcome to Leatherworker.net!

Yep, you've got a real pickle of a decision...but we can help you out.

Hand stitching - If it can be machine sewn, it can be hand stitched, and sometimes the hand sewing is the better option. Hand sewing using a saddle stitch is less likely to unravel when a stitch breaks, if all other considerations are the same. The reason for this is the saddle stitch uses two needles and the thread weaves through the holes, alternating sides, and crossing its counterpart. This means if a stitch should break, there's still another separate thread holding the item together. With a lock stitch (most sewing machines) or chain stitch, the top thread goes into the stitch hole, the bottom thread wraps around it (the lock) and then the top thread comes back out on the same side of the hole. So if one breaks, there's no stitch holding the seam anymore.

The downside to hand sewing.....time. If you hand sew with one of the little "stitching awls" where you are actually making lock stitches instead of saddle stitches....well, you still spend the time, but give up the advantages. Hand sewing should be done with a diamond awl (or harness awl, bridle awl, etc.) and two needles. There are several discussions about it, and Al Stohlman's book.

With the new generation of machine sewing, the strength of the stitch really isn't a problem anymore. Bonded nylon and polyester thread is very durable, and with the better glues we have today, a broken stitch doesn't necessarily mean anything will come apart..

So....if you are making things for yourself and have lots of time, or there's no reason to hurry, hand stitching is a very cost effective way to go. If you have deadlines, look into a machine.

But which machine?

A Boss is a good entry level machine, and will have you making things in less than half the time it took to hand stitch, plus being able to just pull a lever instead of shoving an awl through thick leather is really nice. But, in the ~18 months I've had mine, I've already started to "out grow" it. It has a pretty narrow throat, which limits the size of what you can sew. It's also an arm ache and a half on long/large items because each stitch requires a pull and push of the lever. I've added the cost of Advil to the price of my belts. You'll sew faster than hand stitching, but you only get to use one hand to guide the product. Being manually operated, there is very little chance of losing control of the machine, and you can literally put each stitch where you want it. Stitch length adjustment is kinda quirky. It's done with a screw that has ZERO indicators on it, and no lock method...you adjust it and it sorta stays there. A detent of some sort would be a vast improvement. Because of this, I've pretty much set mine and everything is sewn at that spi.

That's some of the downsides. Here's where it shines - I make holsters/sheathes and often times need to go to my friend's gun shop to have access to either one of his guns or a customer's because there's a lot of 'one-off' items. I pick up the machine, take it to the store, and make the item. If you are doing tack repair, you could easily put the machine in your vehicle and carry it to where you need it. Also, being human powered, there's no requirement for electricity.....which comes in handy if you happen to lose power in a storm of some sort....or there's no power wherever you need to use it. It's also a pretty small set up. Mine is permanently mounted to a base I built and if I need the space I pick up the whole unit and put it under my bench.

Powered machines - typically MUCH faster than a Boss or hand sewing, especially on long runs where you can crank up the speed....but with the servo motors that are being offered, you can slow down to 1 stitch per day if you need to. The 441 clones (16" arm) are among the cream of the crop, and have at least a 3/4" clearance so large items are very easy to do. But they don't do everything. Most shops have at least two machines - one set up for heavy work, one set up for light work. This also applies to the Boss - there's a bottom limit to what it can do, and for really thin stuff I go back to hand stitching. Powered machines (complete stands) are also much heavier. Though they might be on caster feet, you still need a place for them to be - no tossing it in the back of a car either. But, for most things, one of the big machines can handle it quite well. Since I don't do a whole lot of light work, I'm trying to save up for one of the Cobra 4 machines. Depending on your location, there's also Techsew, and Toledo Industrial.....both of whom are offering comparable machines.

Any really thick items would require a special type of machine called a Campbell High Lift. It can sew over an inch....all day long. It is a needle and awl machine, which is a completely different type of sewing than the modern (441 clone and Adler clones) machines. A needle and awl machine uses an awl to punch the hole, then a needle comes up and grabs the thread. Some are fed by the awl, some by the needle - both are well known for good tight stitches that look good front and back. Be careful of picking a neeld and awl machine though - most of them are fairly old and may need rebuilding or at least some TLC. My Champion is from around 1912, and is "in process" of becoming operational. Campbell is the only current producer of needle/awl machines that I'm aware of.

If you want to see some examples of really nice hand stitching, look at some of the work by Katsass - all hand sewn items

If you think you'll go with a sewing machine, go ahead and save enough money for TWO Tippmann Boss sewing machines.....and purchase one of the 16" 441 clones from Steve (Cobra), Bob (Toledo), or Ronnie (Techsew). You'll have just as much learning curve as with a Boss, but more capability in the end.

[rickybobby]

Hi everyone! I am new to the forum and most certainly new to the leatherworking world!

I am debating on sewing machines... Here are my intentions:

I want to be able to sew horse tack such as breast collars, headstalls, and halters. Eventually, I would like to start builing a saddle or 2.

Opinions, thoughts, and experiences DEFINITELY appreciated!!

Thanks in advance!

O.K. you asked for thoughts... My first thought is to use your time learning to work with leather "( most certainly new to the leatherworking world! )" by this I mean how to cut, edge properly, skiving leather properly, construction techniques, types of leather to use, and then there is tooling, a whole other art to decorate your tack with. Hand sewing is a needed requirement as not everything is accessible for a machine.

A sewing machine will not make you a leatherworker, the other skills will, the machine will just help your production times!

I would put my money towards...

• a couple good knives (a round knife and a trim knife)
• better quality basic stamping tools (a very good set for not a lot of $ is from Hackbarth Tools. Lonnie is a great guy and his basic set of tools is about $145.00 it is about double Tandy tools but the quality is 10X's you will use them forever and have a clear impression every time making learning much easier.
• Use a Tandy store for beginner tooling classes they are free or $10.00 this will give you the basics

Use this forum search function and post questions, there is a saddle and tack forum for equipment questions and several years worth of information available by searching your topic. Don't be afraid of searching other areas of the forum, many construction techniques are the same and you will learn more seeing it used in different areas of leather work.

You can hand sew many projects, this provides a good foundation for you skills and if you must have something stitched you can take the project to a saddle shop, shoe repair, or an upholstery shop, for $10.00 or $20.00 they will sew most projects for you. (breast collar, chinks, chaps)

My advice is to get some projects done, learn some construction techniques of what your main projects will be at first, hand sew as much as you can, then search for a machine. (For petes sakes, read as much as you can in this forum about sewing machines, forum member Wiz has several excellent post on machine types, styles, abilities to match your needs in the sewing machine section).

Buy books!! There are several that are a must for everyone starting out...

https://www.leatherc...l-stohlman.aspx

This one will help you understand, use, care for, and sharpen many tools you will be using

https://www.leatherc...-ja-wilson.aspx

https://www.leathercraftlibrary.com/search.aspx?searchterm=hand+sewing

These are just a start, many others can be found used on Ebay or here on leatherworker.net if you post wanting to buy some, many members have duplicates they may want to sell.

Others may jump in with their opinions, this is just my thoughts on the content of your post.

Good luck and keep reading! Welcome to the forum!

Rick

Edited August 29, 2012 by rickybobby

[bluehorse]

Wow!

Thank you for such FAST and INFORMATIVE responses!!!

I am looking at the Stohlman books now! And also doing research on the Awls...for hand stitching. I can make most anything out of fabric, and hand-sew and machine-sew fabric, I just want to start working with leather....mainly because there isn't anyone around where I live that does it and because I have encountered much frustration with finding someone who will make custom items.

I do GREATLY appreciate everything!! TwinOaks and Rickybobby, THANK YOU!!

[katsass]

From the grump: For sure, rickybobby and TwinOaks have said it all - almost. Now -- I don't know beans about a sewing machine, don't profess to, never have used one, nor have I actually wanted to. I hand stitch everything. My suggestion is to learn to hand saddle stitch -- well. It will take practice, patience, and concentration, and IMO is becoming less and less seen -- at least seen done well. Along with that, learn what YOU can do with a chunk of dead cow skin - and what CAN be done with it, then perfect your abilities and technique - then go to a machine to speed up production -- IF you feel the need. One thing I'll mention, and as once said by one with more smarts than I have, 'leather working is not for those looking for instant gratification'. I say it a bit differently --- "slow down and take your damned time!" Mike

P.S. My grandson heard a LOT of the 'slow down' comment from me (among other comments). He's the one that named me 'a grumpy old man'. He wanted to make a holster for his dad as a gift - spent about three weeks with me working on it - mostly on learning (and practicing) to stitch. Here's a pic of that holster - the absolute first piece of leather work he ever put his hands to, and every bit done by him. He learned to stitch pretty well, but he could profit for a bit more practice, but he was proud of his work, and so was I. Learning to stitch will serve you well - IMO.

Edited August 30, 2012 by katsass

[Techsew Ron]

Great suggestions on those books! Might even buy a couple for myself..

Bluehorse, I'd be happy to answer any machinery questions you may have.

Ron

Edited August 30, 2012 by Ronnie

[bluehorse]

Thank you, Katsass!! Your grandson did a very nice job! Thanks for sharing the pic!

I am definitely looking into the hand stitching for now...I don't have any reason to have a machine at this point. The saddle stitch is the one that I have been studying the most since it has been recommended the most. And like TwinOaks said, if one thread breaks, there is always the second thread. It looks like a much neater stitch as well and will work great for breast collars and headstalls.

From the grump: For sure, rickybobby and TwinOaks have said it all - almost. Now -- I don't know beans about a sewing machine, don't profess to, never have used one, nor have I actually wanted to. I hand stitch everything. My suggestion is to learn to hand saddle stitch -- well. It will take practice, patience, and concentration, and IMO is becoming less and less seen -- at least seen done well. Along with that, learn what YOU can do with a chunk of dead cow skin - and what CAN be done with it, then perfect your abilities and technique - then go to a machine to speed up production -- IF you feel the need. One thing I'll mention, and as once said by one with more smarts than I have, 'leather working is not for those looking for instant gratification'. I say it a bit differently --- "slow down and take your damned time!" Mike

P.S. My grandson heard a LOT of the 'slow down' comment from me (among other comments). He's the one that named me 'a grumpy old man'. He wanted to make a holster for his dad as a gift - spent about three weeks with me working on it - mostly on learning (and practicing) to stitch. Here's a pic of that holster - the absolute first piece of leather work he ever put his hands to, and every bit done by him. He learned to stitch pretty well, but he could profit for a bit more practice, but he was proud of his work, and so was I. Learning to stitch will serve you well - IMO.

[dirtclod]

Everbody is always talking about having the second stitch when hand sewing that it will hold things togeather and that's true. But when and if a stitch wears through on a machine stitch it just doesn't unravel and come apart as soon as the stitch breaks. Dose you shirt, skirt or britches come apart when a stitch breaks ?

Hand sewing is fine but you better be able to get a big price out of what ever ever your selling. Because if your not you will be loseing money with ever stitch. Lots of people can hand stitch myself included but in IMHO their are very few people that can hand stitch well.

[WinterBear]

Biggest advantage for handsewing--I can take it with me. A small pony, a pillbottle with harness needles and a piece of beeswax, the awl, and some cord, and I can sew just about anywhere, as long as I don't have to worry about jabbing someone with a needle accidentally. I can also scoop it up in a hurry and get it out of the way, and store everything in a drawer.

[abn]

TwinOaks, FWIW, that was the best concise description of the pros and cons of hand-stitching and machine-stitching that I've read to-date. Thanks for taking the time to write that up.

And I'd like to cast my vote as another craftsman who prefers hand-stitching. Until a machine is absolutely necessary and unavoidable, it's best to forego the cost and learning curve. And hand-stitching can be an enjoyable and meditative process if you're not rushing things.

[daleoffshore]

Being a "newbie",well away from leather work for 40 yrs,I would be hand stitching everything except My Father bought a Luberto's no9; [ new ones are classics ] and I have it now.They're not commonly sold and Tony is gearing up for production again. They're a needle machine,can sew leather and fabric, and heavy.Dad set this one up w/motor and clutch,and I love using it when I want to Get-er-done on a project.Nothing but straight lock stitch but I'm not complaining.

[St8LineGunsmith]

I had a machine back 25 years ago but sold it when I sold off all my other leather tools now 25 years later I am kicking myself in the head for selling everything.

A sewing machine would be nice because the speed in which you can sew however unfortunately they are way out of my budget.

but being that i am at the hobby level i see no need for a machine.

a stitch groover, divider, overstitch wheel, an assortment of punches chisels, needles, small drill bits, a dremel and a good stitching pony suffice well

for a saddle stitch once i glue together my parts to be sewn I will make a stitch line or groove then use the overstitch wheel then i will drill the holes with a dremel.

I use sewing palms on both hands to help push the needles through and have small pairs of pliers handy if i need to pull the needle through and the stitching pony is a big help to keep the piece in position to speed up the stitching process, I have a stitching awl but i don't see where it would be any faster to stitch with an awl and i think a saddle stitch is stronger than a lock stitch so i rarely use the stitching awl.

I do a lot of loop and double loop lacing and buck stitching on a lot of my projects too which require different types of chisels to make holes and a sewing machine can't do lacing.

I probably have close to $150.00 in just hand stitching & lacing tools alone.

it would be nice to get to a point to where I need a sewing machine but there a lot other leather working tools I need more than a sewing machine at this point .

Edited October 7, 2012 by St8LineGunsmith

[St8LineGunsmith]

Wow!

Thank you for such FAST and INFORMATIVE responses!!!

I am looking at the Stohlman books now! And also doing research on the Awls...for hand stitching. I can make most anything out of fabric, and hand-sew and machine-sew fabric, I just want to start working with leather....mainly because there isn't anyone around where I live that does it and because I have encountered much frustration with finding someone who will make custom items.

I do GREATLY appreciate everything!! TwinOaks and Rickybobby, THANK YOU!!

if you are wanting to know how to make a saddle stitch ,Buck stitch, lacing and double loop lacing here https://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/home/infoandservices/Leathercraft-Videos/Leathercraft-Videos.aspx and scroll down. there are a lot of tutorials for basic leather crafting

and you can find a lot of tutorials on youtube

the books will go more indepth about how far the stitch line needs to be from the edge, spacing of the stitch and the tools you will want to get to make a professional looking stitch line.