A Few Questions On Stitching With Linen Thread

[kwelna]

I have been using the Tandy linen thread and it is OK but i find it a bit "chunky" at times and once in a while it actualy breaks while stitching. I have tried other threads from Tandy and they are all good, but are not what I am looking for. Their linen comes the closest. It seems that on this site, eveyrone really likes the Barbour linen thread so i am about to jump in and go this route. My questions are: (Yes, they are numbered as I am that analy retentive at times......LOL)

1. Waxing the thread. I can get of bees wax (Wife makes candles and hand balm), but I need to know about rosin do I just use violin rosin which is quite hard or bass rosin which can be quite soft. (I have a small crock pot that I can use to melt this stuff down.)

2. Why the rosin - does this addition help secure the stitchand thread?

3. What proportion of wax to rosin? (Is this by weight or volume) - Ha! I slipped an extra question in there.

4. What weight\number of strands. I am thining 4 strands of like an 18 weight?

5. When I look on most sites for the thread, they list barbour and the number of strands, but no the weight, is there only one weight?

6. Is there a source for smaller amounts of this thread? I would like to determine if this is infact what i am looking for before I drop $50-$60 on a whole pound.

Additional information:

I do a bit of everything in my leatherwork but mostly Mesenger bags, mag holders, wallets\moneyclips and a few holsters.

I work mostly with multiple layers of 2-3 oz. and 4-5 oz. leather. Sometimes 7-9 oz for holsters.

I am lookng to expand into purses using a softerhanded leather, but that is a ways out yet.

Thanks for the help

[katsass]

From the grumpy old guy; Before you go to the trouble and expense of puting together a pot of goo to wax your (expensive) purchase of Barbour's, why not go to another suplier, and try their thread first. I used Tandy almost 50 years ago - when they were pretty decent, however, after the failure of the original Tandy Corp. (Tandy Leather, Radio Shack, American Handicrafts, etc.), the new Tandy Leather Factory opened up and IMO isn't anywhere near the quality the old outfit was (and they weren"t the BEST back then). I use Springfield Leather, and do all of my ordering from them online or by telephone. You migh give them a try (they advertise on here) look them up online, go through and look at some of their stuff, and order a small spool of their waxed linen thread. Use that for a bit and see if you feel that all of the extra work and expense is worth it. I use their stuff most of the time, and don't feel the need to mix a special wax compound -- of course I'm not an expert, but feel that I've done passable work over the years. I do rewax ANY thread I get by simply pulling a length of it through a beeswax block a couple of times, then pulling it through my hand (most folk will use a little piece of brown paper bag for this) a few more times to remove the excess, and then go to stitching. Here are a couple of pics of my stitching with Springfield's waxed linen threads. It may just save you some money and effort. Mike

Edited October 4, 2012 by katsass

[Mijo]

I bought a pound of the 5 strand barbour linen thread awhile back and I'm just working through the rest of the waxed linen thread I already have before I start using it. I'm curious to see how other forum members respond to the OP questions. The only question I can really answer is Question 6, when I researched vendors for Barbour's linen thread I could not find anyone that sold less than a pound.

Katsass - i'm glad to see that your not mixing bee's wax with anything else as that's what I intend to do myself when I start using the barbour spool (just use bee's wax and nothing else). It seems like a lot of other members mix their wax with something else and that's a process I really didn't want to get into

[kwelna]

thanks!

[kwelna]

The idea of having a bit extra of someithng to help lock in the stitches , especially the ends after you back stitch a couple of times is attractice to me. A bit of CYA as it were.

Forgot, Katsass, I do do business with Springfield and they are great. I am planning on another order in the near future. I will look at their prewaxed thread.

[katsass]

FWIW from the grumpy old guy; I've heard a number of folks saying that they add the rosin the the beeswax to increase friction on their stitching. My primary understanding is that this is done to preclude the stitching from coming undone when ending the stitch line. I was taught by an old WWI cavalry soldier when I was a kid, ( that was a day or two ago) and he was a lot grumpier than I am (at least I like to think so). One thing has stuck with me (more than one thing actually) but that was him growling in my ear that "if you can pull the needle through the leather by hand - - - your holes are too damned big". My awl is less than a tenth of an inch wide, and the holes it makes requires me to pull the needles through with a pair of smooth-jawed pliers - at least on holsters and knife sheaths, which is about all I make. To finish off a line of stitching I pull the first needle through, tug it snug and throw a figure eight knot over that piece with the other thread. I then poke that second needle into the same hole and gently work the knot down to the hole, pull it into the leather and snug it up well then trim the ends flush. I apply a damp sponge to the stitching, wait a minute or two and run the overstitch. Stitching stays tight for me. Mike.

Edited October 4, 2012 by katsass

[Les No6]

I have been using the Tandy linen thread and it is OK but i find it a bit "chunky" at times and once in a while it actualy breaks while stitching. I have tried other threads from Tandy and they are all good, but are not what I am looking for. Their linen comes the closest. It seems that on this site, eveyrone really likes the Barbour linen thread so i am about to jump in and go this route. My questions are: (Yes, they are numbered as I am that analy retentive at times......LOL)

1. Waxing the thread. I can get of bees wax (Wife makes candles and hand balm), but I need to know about rosin do I just use violin rosin which is quite hard or bass rosin which can be quite soft. (I have a small crock pot that I can use to melt this stuff down.)

2. Why the rosin - does this addition help secure the stitchand thread?

3. What proportion of wax to rosin? (Is this by weight or volume) - Ha! I slipped an extra question in there.

4. What weight\number of strands. I am thining 4 strands of like an 18 weight?

5. When I look on most sites for the thread, they list barbour and the number of strands, but no the weight, is there only one weight?

6. Is there a source for smaller amounts of this thread? I would like to determine if this is infact what i am looking for before I drop $50-$60 on a whole pound.

Additional information:

I do a bit of everything in my leatherwork but mostly Mesenger bags, mag holders, wallets\moneyclips and a few holsters.

I work mostly with multiple layers of 2-3 oz. and 4-5 oz. leather. Sometimes 7-9 oz for holsters.

I am lookng to expand into purses using a softerhanded leather, but that is a ways out yet.

Thanks for the help

Hi

I’m not familiar with Tandy thread but it certainly shouldn’t break while sewing, it’s a common beginner’s mistake to pull stiches in to tight. Not a fan of Barbour thread I prefer Sewmac it’s more consistent. Bees wax and rosin makes a better wax it holds the fibres of the thread together and holds up to the rigour of hand sewing better than bees wax alone, it also glues the stiches in place and gives you more grip on the thread and needles. You want hard rosin (I use pine rosin) mix equal amounts of bees wax and rosin being careful not to overheat pour a little in cold water and squeeze it between your fingers if its brittle add more bees wax if too soft add more rosin when you have the right consistency pour the whole lot into a bucket of water gather together use wet hands when cool enough remove from the bucket and knead and pull the mixture until it floats in water. For black wax use pitch instead of bees wax if you live in a cold climate and have a cold workshop add a little oil to the mix. As to weight of thread linen is available in many weights, have you thought about making your own threads with hemp (actually linen) http://www.abbeyengland.com/Store/tabid/77/CategoryID/202/Category2ID/109/catpageindex/1/Level/2/ProductID/68760/Default.aspx this may be more cost effective for you with a little more labour always handy to have around even if you go the pre spun route.

[kwelna]

Interesting, I thought linen was made form flax and hemp from hemp. The thread actually broke under little stress, it has only happened a coulpe of times and all on the same 'roll" of linnen thread. Once bitten twice shy I guess. I think i will try it both ways, with and without rosin, I can get a "cake" of rosin for about $2 so ithe cost is not prohibitive. Tried to go to Abbyland and the server looks to be down, I will try again later. I am in a fairly cold climate, Minnesota, but I will be moving wm shop into the basement later this month. Still it is a bit chilly down there as well. I any case, looks like I need to use smaller needles, smaller awl, learn to sharpen my awls and wax up my own thread. then maybe I can start stitching....thank god I all ready made my own stitching pony. LOL Really I do appeciate the assistance. Thank you all again. There is a lot to learn and i am enjoying the journey. I suppose I had better start posting more of my work..

Edited October 5, 2012 by kwelna

[ChuckBurrows]

Two things - shouldn't that be Somac thread and not Sewmac? and I agree that in the finer sizes such as 18/3 it's more uniform but once you go 4 cord and above Barbour's is just as even at least in my experience. Plus Somac is much harder to find here in the USA.

With respect but hemp thread is not the same as linen - hemp thread is made from cannabis sativa (yep the same plant as marijuana) while linen is made from flax. Hemp thread is in fact the strongest plant based thread while silk is the strongest commonly available natural thread of all (spider silk is stronger but is not very common).

And I agree about the wax/rosin mix being better over all and not just for ending the stitches - once I starte using it I have never gone back to plain beeswax. Another plus is rosin adds anti-bacterial properties to the thread which helps prevent rot.

[kwelna]

I am still a bit confused on the thread size I should be using, I am stitching either 4 layers of 4\5 oz. stitched with a 3mm spacing ( I think) for my 22 rimfire mag holders or 3 to 4 layers of 2\3 oz. for my billfold\money clips stitched with a 2mm spaced stitch. Here are some pictures of each suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

[Northmount]

Some of the stitching in your examples is pulled way too tight so it is cutting into the leather and causing puckers. Were some of these wet when they were stiched?

On others, the taughtness of the thread seems to be random. Practise trying to pull up the same taughtness consistently. Thinner leather has to be treated a little more tenderly than thicker. If holes are too close together on thin leather, it is very easy to cut through the leather when pulling the thread tight.

How are you punching your holes? If using an awl, the awl should be angled so the little slots aren't point to point. I can't see from you pictures will enough to be sure what your method is. There have been a number of stitching questions in the past couple weeks and some really good advice given by the Old Grump and others. Do a couple searches to see their comments and instructions.

CTG

[katsass]

OK kwelna, first off, this grumpy old guy's mind just can't wrap itself around common usage of the metric system. I understand it in two areas - - our monetary system, and cartridge designation. For most of my stuff I use 5 or 7 strand (or 'cord') waxed linen threads. I don't particularly like synthetic threads, but Nyltex is a good synthetic thread if you are going in that direction. I generally use 6 spi (stitches per inch) as spacing. It's a good general purpose size. For smaller stuff I MAY go to 8 spi, and on really larger stuff (rifle scabbards) 5 spi. I also use a corresponding overstitch wheel.

As to your stitching, on these smaller things I don't use a groover - - it doesn't look as though you do either, but you seem to be applying a varying amount of tension to set each stitch. It appears to me that you are making a pretty large hole for the stitching OR, pulling the stitch so tight that it cuts between holes. I does seem that you are getting a good linear stitch, but It's also obvious that you are not using an overstitch tool.

I'm also wondering what kind of leather you are using, looking at your magazine holder, I see wrinkles - and that ain't good. . You need a good, firm leather like 'shoulder' leather for these projects IMO, and it appears to me that you may be using belly leather (which IMO isn't too good for much of anything I make) for your projects, or a poor quality of leather. Using the wrong type (or a poor quality) of leather can really frustrate a person.

From what I'm seeing it appears that you may have TWO problems - - the leather you are using (or quality thereof), and a lack of full understanding of the use of all tools and procedures needed for good stitching. I would suggest that you get Al Stohlman's book "How To Sew Leather", It's an old publication, inexpensive, still readily available, and it contains the true 'ins-and-outs' of doing this kind of work. Now, I'm definitely not trying to discourage you, or put down your efforts, but without looking you in the eye, having my grubby mitts on your work, growling in your ear, or slapping your hands, this is about all I can do. Hope this helps a little,

Edited October 6, 2012 by katsass

[kwelna]

To be totally honest, it was a little depressing to hear, but then again if no one tells me the truth, how will I know what needs improvement and how to improve. I am in the process of moving all of my leather working and glass lampworking equiptment back into the house for the winter, as well as switching out and updating my reloading bench(s). I am trying to make more room for this leather stuff. As soon as it is all back in order (in about a week) I hope to be back at it once again. So hang on as I am sure I will have more questions and ber looking for more honest opinions of my work as well as sugestions on what I can do to improve. Sans the hand slapping hopefully. Looks like I need to do and try a few different things.

Thansk again I do apprciate the honesty

[katsass]

The old grumpy guy back again - - with one question. Where are you obtaining your leather supplies? Mike

[kwelna]

tandy and sprinfield. tandy is handy but springfield has better prices ddn better leather. currently I am working off of a 2-3 soft handed leather and a 5-6 regular leather from springfield. most of my tools are tandy. Looks ike I need to upgrade my awl and awl blade first. I have been punching all the way through my pwices with their 6 prong diamond stiching chisel, it is the "finest" spacing that I could find at Tandy. but since my holes are too big , looks like I will have to start using my awl and a small blade. I will be buying a better awl and blade when funds free up. Until then I will try my hand at re shaping. polishing and sharpening a few Tandy awl blades I have layng around the house. SO do I want the entire awl knife sharp or just the tip?

[ramrod]

i used to think that the entire awl blade needed to be sharp. but others on this forum have written that only the point needs to be sharp - and crazy sharp at that!

that's pretty much how mine is now. and if you think about it, it makes sense - you really just need the penetration from the point and the blade will naturally follow. i'm overstating the obvious here, but you probably can understand that it makes sense.

[kwelna]

• yes it does, now all i need to do is cough up $100 for a new handle and blade and away I go , but in the mean time I can practice and play with cheaper awl blades from tandy. So much to learn , so little brain.....LOL
  

[David8386]

There was also on another thread about how you always want to penetrate the leather the same amount on every stitch. Someone, I do not remember who said to put leather washers on your awl to help make consistent sized holes and keep the awl tip super sharp. I have not stitched a lot but sharpening the awl tip helped me a lot and it was a cheap Tandy one. Good luck

David

[katsass]

From the grump; both ramrod and David have brought up good, viable points to help you out. Now, as I have said before, i was taught by a WWI cavalry soldier when I was a kid. He taught me - - contrary to anything else ever heard - - that when using the awl, you work it GENTLY, (most folks seem to jab with gusto) with your opposite thumb backing up the leather. You learn VERY quickly to ease the sharp damned thing into the leather, right where you want it, then get your thumb out of the way and open the hole only as far as you need.. It's a slower process, but you can be sure of placement and ultimately depth. Be sure that I had a tender thumb for a while, but now I can ease that pointy thing in 'till I just feel the tip, and don't get any blood showing. UH - it takes practice, painful practice and I'm not suggesting it.

As for an awl, mine is an old (around 40 years old) Osborne, single fixed blade. The handle has a flat side that I sanded into it which places my thumb in the same place every time I hold it. That, in turn, places the blade at the proper angle when I use it. I don't care much for the multi blade types. Mike

[kwelna]

When stitcing thicker items suach as Holsters, do you put a stitching groove on both sides? if so how do you ensure you hit the groove on the back side ? I am assumiong your answer is practice, but maybe there is bit of a trick for us newbies? I read somewhere that you ease the wl through till it is almost out the ther side and then adjust your angle to hit the stitching gooove. Does that sound about right? So that will kkep the stitches the coooect distance from the edge, but what about keeping the stitches even...... yes i know, practice but nay other trick(s) to this? I like the sanding teh handle to keep the angle of teh blade consistent, that is an excellent peice of advice.

[katsass]

You are about correct. I push ALMOST through from the front, then go to the opposite side and 'fish' around 'till I hit the right place.. The first hole placement is critical, as after it is done, I run my overstitch on the back for the location of all following holes. For a holster such as this one (pic) it can be a real challenge. Mike

Edited October 8, 2012 by katsass

[Horrrk]

WOW.! Mike, that's a beast of a holster to stitch!!

I love seeing the quality of your stitching and this is very tidy, as always, but WOW.! lol..

Regards

Phil

[katsass]

Thank you for the kind comments Phil. Actually, heavy welts in holsters are not all that uncommon, however, this one is more so than most. This is due to the fact that I began working on it prior to having my paws on the actual firearm. The firearm's owner told me what he desired and what pistol the holster was for. It wasn't until four days after I began work, when I obtained his gun, did I find out that didn't know what the hell he was talking about. The heavy welt was the only way to salvage my work. Mike

Edited October 8, 2012 by katsass

[electrathon]

There was also on another thread about how you always want to penetrate the leather the same amount on every stitch. Someone, I do not remember who said to put leather washers on your awl to help make consistent sized holes and keep the awl tip super sharp. I have not stitched a lot but sharpening the awl tip helped me a lot and it was a cheap Tandy one. Good luck

David

If your awl is the proper size you want it sharp along the sides and you push it all the way in. The reason for stopping short is they the awl is too big. If you stop short you will have a tapered hole, wider at the top and narrow at the bottom. Definatly a case of people trying to use improper tools for the job.

[ramrod]

• yes it does, now all i need to do is cough up $100 for a new handle and blade and away I go , but in the mean time I can practice and play with cheaper awl blades from tandy. So much to learn , so little brain.....LOL
  

if you are handy with a grinder and a drmel tool, you can make some very nice awl blades. i make mine out of roofing screws. they are quite hard and can still be worked quite well. i have several of differing lengths. all are very sharp. what i really need is some awl handles! i'm swimming in blades.

david mentioned putting washers on the blade to get a consistent depth of penetration. i simply use my index fingertip to guage the depth. i keep it a fixed distance from the tip while using the awl. it works quite well - and it's free.