A Few Questions On Stitching With Linen Thread

[electrathon]

If you are going to grind your own allen wrenches and drill bits are a good starting point. The metal is very hard and easily available.

[ramrod]

excellent idea.

[kwelna]

OK Guys, slow down just a bit LOL. For now I will cough up the $5-6 ea for a few more tandy awls to work on . I have a dremmel and a couple of different poishing compunds. In the mean time I will save up for a "good" awl blade and handle. I do not mind spending money on tools especially good one. Although you cant go wrong with harbor freight for occasional use tools and there is a store only 5 miles from my house.....very dangerouse. Not that I don;t beleive you , but I went to a leather guild meeting for the first time last night, (found it by accident while surfing) interesting meeting and group. Very nice and friendly as well. They seemed to be mostly toolers but everyone said the same thing, tandy awl blades are too dull and too large. Call me a fool, but I think I am starting to see a pattern here........

Katsass, did I read your post correctly in that when working with thiner leather (2-3 oz (Money clips \ billfolds so may be 3-4 layers)) you do not make\use a stitching groove? I am going back to the basics and I am going to make a bunch of smaller items such as money clips and mag holders to get the hang of not using a pricking iron and using only an awl and an oversticther.

So to recap for an old fool, start witht the leather totally dry, groove - (if thick enough leather), run the over stitch wheel to mark the stitch holes, make the holes using an awl with the stitching holes (at an angle) barly large enogh to allow the needle to pass through the leather. Sitch using even tension. Once stitched, lightly moisten the leather and go over the stitches with the overstitch wheel. That about sum it up? I will give this a shot later this week \ week end.

You guys are great I appeciate the help.

PS just ordered a cataloge from Weaver I don't know how much business I will do with them, but some times it is great to have an alternate source for stuff. $250 minimum first order......at first I thought wow that is a lot ,but, I can hit that pretty easy.......I really need to find cheaper hobbies than shooting, glass blowing\lapworking and leather. At this point I think fishing might be cheaper, now that IS a scary thought. But then again, I have the tools......maybe I could make some really nice leather flyrod cases............................

Edited October 9, 2012 by kwelna

[katsass]

"So to recap for an old fool, start witht the leather totally dry, groove - (if thick enough leather), run the over stitch wheel to mark the stitch holes, make the holes using an awl with the stitching holes (at an angle) barly large enogh to allow the needle to pass through the leather. Sitch using even tension. Once stitched, lightly moisten the leather and go over the stitches with the overstitch wheel. That about sum it up? I will give this a shot later this week \ week end."

_________________________________________________________________________________

kwelna; Looks like you have it. Give it a go, but remember, there is no 'one way only' in leather. If something works out better for you, and you obtain the result you want - -go for it.

And as an aside, it's getting time for me to get the old Ponsness-Warren out and set up to load 12 gauge trap loads. I also have one of the original Hollywood turret presses that I can set up with three sets of dies - - two pistol and one rifle . May get carried away and load up some .44 Spl. too. Mike

Edited October 9, 2012 by katsass

[St8LineGunsmith]

Katsass you give sage advice I agree with everything you advised in all of your posts not that my opinion matters much but advice well worth listening to

just looking at your stitch work on your projects should be enough indication that you know exactly what you are talking about.

and your methods are very close to the same as how i prep a stitch line and stitching

however i rarely use an awl for making my stitch holes i usually use a drill press or a dremel and a small numbered drill bit but i always glue my seams and make sure the leather is dry before making any holes i especially like using a dremel on holsters with thick welts i can make good straight accurate holes with ease

I also feel the same about tandy leather factory, they are no where near the caliber they once was. it seems to me the quality went down when the prices went up

I also use Springfield for buying most of my leather tools and hardware

[katsass]

Well St8Line, 'bout all I can say is 'thanks'. I know that I don't do as many others, and that I was taught to stitch in a somewhat different way than others - - but, what the hell, it works for me. I use a Dremel with a 3/64" bit to teach beginning leather workers, and am damned sure that many stay with it instead of going on with the awl, as I show them, but, unless the bit is too damned big, I don't think there are many out there that can tell any difference. As far as I'm concerned, whatever cooks the rooster works for me. Thanks again. Mike

Edited October 9, 2012 by katsass

[St8LineGunsmith]

Mike

thats about the size bit i use too and a dremel and drill bit speeds up the stitching process 100 times faster

than stabbing through with an awl haft. many will argue but i think it makes a cleaner neater looking stitch line and

i find that you stand less of a chance cutting into the leather when pulling the stitch tight than with a diamond shaped

stitching awl. I do believe a stitching awl has its place but i am a lot more apt to using one for lacing than making a saddle stitch

Mike.

[kwelna]

Now you have me thinking even more, A dremmel with a 3/64 " bit..... I will try this as well. At least until I get a decent awl and blade.

[ramrod]

the one thing to keep in mind is that when you drill instead of use an awl, you're removing material from the leather with the drill bit. i personally don't like the thought of doing that. using an awl removes no material as it simply spreads the leather fibers aside.

[kwelna]

Alright, i am using less tension and it seems to be working, I have taken a awl blade and have shrank, reshaped and sharpened it. it does seem to be going through the leather better and smoother. I still need to ge a better \sharper point on the blade......when I have time that is. I have not had much time to practice so it will be a bit before I post another example of my stitching. Now, I am still confused on the thread and needles. I go to the sites suggested and I see the barbour thread but no size\weight is listed only cord count (3,4,5 etc). is it all the same base cord and the total thinkness is determined by the number of cords? Can some one please clarify this? Even down to stating "Go to this web site, buy this needle and this thread." I do beleive that I am using too big a thread and needle at this point.

Katsass, do you purchase your thread and needles from Springfield leather? as I said before I have been using the linen thread from Tandy and I find it a bit "chunky" and thick and not very round or thread like. It actually looks more like string than thread........Is this what all linen thread looks like? I will keep stitching and practicing and again I thank you all for your help and guidance.

Kevin

[katsass]

From the grump: YES - - NO - - YOU'RE WELCOME. Mike

[seanafk]

Hi Kevin,

I tried to answer some of your questions in more detail, I hope this helps (and more experienced folks, pls feel free to correct me):

I go to the sites suggested and I see the barbour thread but no size\weight is listed only cord count (3,4,5 etc). is it all the same base cord and the total thinkness is determined by the number of cords?

For Barbour's, essentially yes. They use the same base thickness of thread and then twist 2-12 of them together which yields the total thickness of thread. I snapped a picture of the 2ply to the 12 ply so you could see the thickness difference. Other brands of thread usually list their thickness in different ways.

Alright, i am using less tension and it seems to be working, I have taken a awl blade and have shrank, reshaped and sharpened it. it does seem to be going through the leather better and smoother. I still need to ge a better \sharper point on the blade......when I have time that is.

A super sharp awl is, as others suggest, very key. If it is dull, it will stretch the leather before piercing and you'll get saggy, inconsistent edges.

Also consider using a stitching/pricking iron or a stitching wheel. This will both help even out the spacing of your stitches but also pre-marks where each stitch goes. If the stitches are pre-marked with an an iron, you don't have to go 'fishing' for the other side of the stitch, the awl serves to just temporarily widen the hole until you put the needle through. Your awl ideally only goes through just to fit the needle through; less than 1/2" poking out the other side or wherever your awl stops tapering if you've made your own. Any more and it overly stretches the hole.

For wax, opinions vary but I usually count 5-6 passes over my wax button and it's fine to start. You can alway re-wax later. An indicator of not enough is that the thread starts to look fuzzy and unravel near the needle. An indicator of too much is when your hammering your stitches flat and you see a lot of wax coming off of the hammerhead. This takes bit of time to find the right balance.

Hope this didn't confuse you more and good luck!

Sean

[kwelna]

No that helps i am less confused......maybe down to disoriented?? LOL It all Helps and I am getting ready to do some more stitching this week endI ( I hope) I have been using a pricking iron to mak the locations, and trying to use the overstitch wheel after stitching......it tends to wander off the stitch line, although that seems to be an issue of the nut behind the tool...I am assuming you press down on the overstitch wheel fairly firmly when running it over the stitches.

Still having fun and learning

Edited October 26, 2012 by kwelna

[katsass]

From the grump: OK, I just posted this pic this morning in another thread. Even went out to the shop to make the little sample and take the pic - - before my second cup of coffee this morning. Marking and punching holes isn't rocket science! You gouge, mark and then punch holes, it took me just a minute or two to make this sample. IMO most folks make their holes so big that Granny with the 'rumatiz' could run a line of stitching like hemming a dress. For good, tight stitching you need small holes, that close back up after running the overstitch when done with pulling thread. An example of what I'm talking about: That's a #1 size needle (smaller than the #0 used by most folks) and my awl blade for comparison, and that is the gouge left by the standard stitching groover. Mike

Edited October 26, 2012 by katsass

[seanafk]

No that helps i am less confused......maybe down to disoriented?? LOL It all Helps and I am getting ready to do some more stitching this week endI ( I hope) I have been using a pricking iron to mak the locations, and trying to use the overstitch wheel after stitching......it tends to wander off the stitch line, although that seems to be an issue of the nut behind the tool...I am assuming you press down on the overstitch wheel fairly firmly when running it over the stitches.

Still having fun and learning

I actually don't use an overstitch wheel after stitching; instead I lightly hammer them flat over a granite tile. This might also help with your stitches puckering. If they don't hammer flat, then you know you pulled too hard when stitching. Sounds like you're on the right path and the stitches should improve over time.

[kwelna]

Seanafk, thanks I will give hamering a try as well. by the way, your card with the theads attached was of great help. As was your description of the amount of wax needed. I am getting closer and closer to understanding and possible competnecy.

Katsass thanks for a pix of your awl. Now I have a shape to work towards also lets me see just how sharp and "pointy" you guys are actually talking about. I have a lot of work ahead of me with my awl(s)....a lot of work. Looks like you moisten the leather after groving and before you run the overstitch wheel. Mostly I can see I need to make my awl blade(s) MUCH "pointier" and sharper!

[Les No6]

Two things - shouldn't that be Somac thread and not Sewmac? and I agree that in the finer sizes such as 18/3 it's more uniform but once you go 4 cord and above Barbour's is just as even at least in my experience. Plus Somac is much harder to find here in the USA.

With respect but hemp thread is not the same as linen - hemp thread is made from cannabis sativa (yep the same plant as marijuana) while linen is made from flax. Hemp thread is in fact the strongest plant based thread while silk is the strongest commonly available natural thread of all (spider silk is stronger but is not very common).

And I agree about the wax/rosin mix being better over all and not just for ending the stitches - once I starte using it I have never gone back to plain beeswax. Another plus is rosin adds anti-bacterial properties to the thread which helps prevent rot.

Yes Somac, I must admit I haven’t purchased Barbour thread for a considerable number of years, it was very inconsistent in thickness had a large number of knots and lumps of lint in the twist in all weights of thread. Somac also performs much better in the sewing machines. I do have some very old small bobbins of white and red Barbour thread which is excellent quality made at a time when they earned their reputation.

Hemp and linen are different but hemp sewing thread is no longer used (apart from some handmade shoe bottoms) Hemp is a name that stuck for thread that you spin yourself but its actually linen made from flax, at least on this side of the pond http://www.abbeyengland.com/Store/tabid/77/CategoryID/202/Category2ID/109/Level/2/ProductID/68760/Default.aspx . Hemp a course thread was predominantly used for work gear finer linen thread for higher quality items and silk for the highest quality products. Industrial strains of hemp are of no use as a drug unlike marijuana Mexican slang for strains that do.

Linen is very resistant to rot and can be considered rot proof considerably more than nylon thread that’s marketed as rot proof but degrades comparatively rapidly in sunlight and acidic environments i.e. veg tan leather. I mostly use harness makers black wax, a pitch and rosin mix.

[kwelna]

Well I did it. (Sort of) I sharpened and reshaped a tandy awl blade to the point that it slides through a single layer of 8/9 with almost no pressure.. unfortunately it is also so thin at the tip that the awl blade will bend after about 4-5 jabs. LOL, so it's back to Tandy for a couple more blades and try again. I will say that as I have been playing with reshaping and sharpening this frist awl blade, it is quite important to not only get the awl sharp but polished. I do beleive that I can tell "feel" when I hit a less polished portion of the blade. Ah the training and learning continues........

Edited November 5, 2012 by kwelna

[electrathon]

Well I did it. (Sort of) I sharpened and reshaped a tandy awl blade to the point that it slides through a single layer of 8/9 with almost no pressure.. unfortunately it is also so thin at the tip that the awl blade will bend after about 4-5 jabs. LOL, so it's back to Tandy for a couple more blades and try again. I will say that as I have been playing with reshaping and sharpening this frist awl blade, it is quite important to not only get the awl sharp but polished. I do beleive that I can tell "feel" when I hit a less polished portion of the blade. Ah the training and learning continues........

The steel that the Tandy blades is made out if is very soft. You will do far better to start with am allen wrench or a drill bit. Both a commonly available and are made from quality steel.

Aaron

[ramrod]

i was told that you could even fashion an awl out of masonry nails, somtimes calld "cut nails". i don't have any on hand or else i'd try it. but i'm going to use a hex wrench on my next go around.

[kwelna]

I will try allen wrenches as well. It can't be that much more grinding etc. I did order 1 lb of Barbour 5 cord and 10 size 1 or 0 needles from Cambell-Randell. Next is leather from Springfiled....Guess I am gearing up for the long winter. Lots of ideas and I need lots of practice. Thinking of modifying my messenger bag into a range bag with a built in holster and pocket for ammo boxes and shot timer. Maybe even a bit of tooling.....

[kwelna]

Received my 1lb spool of 5 cord Burbuar lined thread todyay. Tested the breaking strengh with my hands, This stuff is strong. It looks to be about half the diameter of the stuff I was using from tandy, although I have not waxed it yet. I do not see that doubling the threads diameter by waxing. Looks like I will be doing a bit of stitching this weekend. I have a couple of dog collars I started just for practicing tooling and stitching. If anything turns out , I will post it for a critique of al least the stitching.

[ramrod]

i ordered from them last saturday. i thought that the thread would be here by now.

how long did yours take to arrive?

[kwelna]

I ordered mine last Saturday as well, It came via UPS. if you give them a call, they will give you a UPS tracking number. They were very nice and helpful. Thinking I may need a spool of 3 cord for lighter items. But first I gotta learn to stich

[kwelna]

OK as I am gearing up to do my stitching, I have gotten the Barbour thread , the correct needles size 1, shaprened my awl and now, since I am using unwaxed hread, I decided to make some "coad" (sp?) I used a mix of 2 parts rosin, a few drops of neetsfoot oil and 20 parts beeswax. It melted down and mixed togeather just fine....as far as I can tell. I then poured it off into a bowl of water ], let it cool enough that I could hadle it and then needed it for a good 5 minutes and formed into balls about 2\3 the size of golf balls. It looks to be just fine and it sticks to the thread, but it strikes me as a bit "lumpy". does any one have a picture of their coad that I can look at to see if mine at least looks the same?

Edited November 11, 2012 by kwelna