Stack Of Pancakes

[chiefjason]

OK, so it's a small stack. I've been busy building a lot of hybrids lately. So when I was contacted to make some leather holsters I jumped at the chance to make a few and tweak my pattern a bit. It started off with just the Shield, then a M&Pc 9mm and Glock 27. Front and back pics.

Here is the Shield. Retention is good but I may shrink the pocket just a touch. It was by far the easiest gun to get into the holster to mold. I'm very happy with the muzzle end too. Worked like I wanted it too.

The M&P was pretty difficult to get into the holster. Certainly got the stitch lines closer this time. I need to get just a little more length on the muzzle end. It's flared open a bit at the front sight.

Then "the beast". The G27. I started developing the patter with my G19 as width reference and using the length measurements on the Glock website. I'm not sure how they are getting their measurements, but I can't replicate them on my G19 or G26 for length. Which is the reason the holster ended up a touch longer than the others. I also managed to trace the silhouette a bit too wide when I was making a pattern for my pocket. Luckily I found it before molding and moved the stitch line in on the trigger side. And I had to stretch and beat this thing in the leather. It was a beast to get in. But it sure holds well now. I've already tweaked my patter for future use.

Now for the downer. I'm having issues with the guy actually paying me. No mention of not liking them. But I've gotten a couple of checks in the mail emails and no check. He's got another week or so and they are off to a local gun board then ebay if I have too. I guess you get a few knuckleheads occasionally.

As alway, criticism is fine. One of the reasons I post them is to get them looked over by you guys. Thanks.

[katsass]

FWIW from the grump; They all look like pretty damned good, usable rigs, from what I see - - except the 'shield'. Not that, overall, it's not a good looking piece of equipment, I like it, it's just that I feel pretty damned sure that it will loosen up in time. I found out long ago that the first (and to me) the most important thing to determine, and anchor down when drawing my pattern, is the stitch line at the FRONT of the trigger guard, followed by the bottom of the trigger guard. They 'contain' the gun in the leather. That bottom line defines and regulates the depth that the shooter WILL drop into the leather, the other regulates whether the gun will cant slightly in the leather over time, and loosen up the whole thing. From those two lines the actual location of the mouth and toe can be determined when drawing your pattern, If you can't say for certain how deep the gun WILL (in time) go into the holster, you can't properly determine exactly where the mouth will be ultimately situated, and the same with the toe. On that one holster you may find that down the road, the muzzle may start peeking it's nose out. Your molding is great, but molding will not retain the shooter in place with a loose stitch line. SO, as you say, tighten her up a bit and you're off and running. JMHO Mike

P.S. When drawing and working up a new pattern, I'll make up a sample holster out of belly leather. I wet that thing down and stuff the gun it's made for down into the wet leather just as far and hard as possible, just to be sure those stitch lines are where they need to be. It takes a little time at first, but actually saves time and problems on the other end.

[dickf]

My suggestion would be to really look at the pattern for each one and make sure it fits the gun it's intended for. It seems like the same pattern was used for each model and there are a few issues with them that can be easily rectified with some tailoring to the pattern.

As pointed out by Katsass, the M&P is the best of the bunch. It has the best stitch line and it has the best spaced slots. I completely agree that the stitch line is where your attention needs to be. You'll probably have to make multiple prototypes to get it just right, but it will be worth it in the end. The forward slot on the other two are way too far back toward the slide stitch line. When the holster is worn, the wings are going to want to bend back and conform to the curve of the user. With the slot put under the stitch line of the slide, the forward wing will not have the opportunity to bend back and will create a pinch point. The Glock holster shows this more than the Shield, which makes me think the same pattern was used for all 3 with the Glock being crafted last. I'm not sure why you would rely on Glock's website measurements when you have the gun/mold in your hands, but, perhaps you didn't have the mold when you were drawing up that pattern to measure yourself (which still wouldn't make much sense). Be sure to use a straightedge when drawing straight lines on your patterns and when possible, on the leather itself.

Also like Katsass, I make prototype holsters for new patterns (I think this is very necessary), but I don't use belly leather. My experience is that the belly stretches too much and doesn't compare to using quality back or shoulder leather. What fits perfectly right in a holster made of belly will not fit in a holster made of proper materials. My advice would be to use parts of the hide that are blemished or have a nappy/fleshy back but are otherwise of the same density and thickness and you'll have something comparable in the end.

It looks like the leather was really wet when you started molding. For me, molding is one of the best parts of the build. It's easy to get carried away and usually, what's done is done with it. If you ease off the water a bit and let the leather case, you'll get a really nice mold on the inside and the outside will be buttery under your tools. This will also eliminate any drag you might experience with your tools when molding. (You didn't mention this, but I thought I'd throw it out there.)

Your pattern reminds me of Horseshoe's ML holster, minus the tunnel loops (http://www.holsters....ide-holster.htm). That's a wonderful little holster and I have used mine quite a bit. I think it's underrated because it seems so simple, but when done well, is very comfortable and fast. Mine was made for a Govt 1911, and even with the muzzle exposed, doesn't hang up. It hugs really tight and is very effective.

Chris

[SooperJake]

Is there a rule of thumb for slot spacing? I get the whole pinch and bend part of the analysis, but figured I'd ask if anyone had a sort of "standard" for slot placement. On one holster I made a while back, I had them too far out it didn't hug very well.

Also, on the Horseshoe's holster..Is that a weaker loop design? Seems like the back side leather around the loop would have more stress on it than a regular loop with two thicknesses of leather taking the load. Looks nice from the front though.

Jake

[Shooter McGavin]

Youve had a few great comments regarding construction, so I will move on to your next issue, which is the money problem.

Even when I first started, unless I knew the buyer personally, it was always payment up front. I still do this. People have buyers remorse, things break, etc.. and too many people will flake out on a purchase. Payment up front, then I build the holster. Otherwise you are the one taking all of the risk and getting none of the reward, especially if you end up sitting on them.

[SooperJake]

Any purchase made online or in a store, even, is payment up front. Shouldn't ever be any other way. Period.

Was this an ebay sale? If so, how'd they get the merch without paying upfront? I cut my association with ebay and paypal years ago.

Jake

[Shooter McGavin]

I despise paypal, but the convenience keeps me using them until I can afford to pay for webstore software and a credit card merchant account.

[SooperJake]

I thought you get all that with an account like godaddy?

[chiefjason]

Wow guys, thanks. A lot to think about for sure. As for the patterns, similar yes. Same, not quite. I try to tweak each one for size of the firearm, sweat guard, etc. For the Shield and G26 I shortened the pattern a bit, and may have gotten too short from Chris's assessment. And I see what you mean now that you point it out. I certainly have a basic design that is beltslide inspired. And the holster the guy saw was a beltslide. He just asked for complete coverage of the muzzle. In the process of building for the smaller guns I guess I went a touch too small.

As for the payment issue. The holsters are still in my garage. No way am I going to ship them before being paid. I got the request off of a gun board I am a member of. I've had several orders like this and this is the first problem. The plan was for me to begin work and him to send payment. Once the issues started I was into the build and just went forward figuring either he pays or I try to sell them somewhere else. I did get a "payments in the mail" email today. So we shall see. I normally use paypal. Checks, MO, etc are much less common these days.

One of the reasons I got started on them so quick was I have been wanting to get back on an all leather holster. I've not done one in a bit and pretty much just jumped all over the opportunity. I need to work on tweaking those patterns a bit while I have the holsters in my possession for comparison. I've already reworked the stitch lines on the G26 pattern.

Now, to the leather and casing. Generally I run water over the outside until it loosens, then run a bit on the inside. After that I let it sit a while before I mold them. So I'm guessing the solution is 2 fold, less water and wait longer?

Also, this is a different leather than I have worked with before. It's great for the hybrids I have been making. But I've pretty much decided that any new leather holsters will get treated to better leather. It did not seem to mold as easily, which certainly could be a water issue as well. And I'm not as happy with the overall finishing process. This leather was harder to groon and seemed to have a more matt finish in the end.

[IngleGunLeather]

I see that you mentioned using a different leather next time. If you haven't tried Hermann Oak, Wickett& Craig or RJF, I'd recommend any one of those three. I personnally use Hermann Oak B grade. I like RJF as well. Never tried W&C, but have read many great reviews. As previously mentioned, cheap leather is great for mock-ups, and nothing else. Now that's just my opinion.

As far as design wise, I personally would curve in the sweat shield back towards the slide after it passes the rear sight. Not sure if it has been mentioned previously, but I'd invest in a punch for your belt slots. A punch will make those slots nice and clean.

I don't consider myself a professional by any means. I've lost money on orders before by going through 2-3 mock-ups because I feel I can do better. That forum member that bought that holster from you is more than likely going to post something about it. If he or she posts something good about it, that's great for you. But if he/she posts something bad about it, not too many people on that forum will buy from you in the future.

Edited October 24, 2012 by CountryTrash

[chiefjason]

I tossed one that had some leather issues I did not think I could work out. I was trying to cut around a soft spot and still got into it. Real fleshy and would not sand well. I changed leather because I had not been doing any all leather holsters. This works great for the hybrids. But a lot of the leather is covered anyway. I'm looking to just order 2 different leathers in my next order. The import shoulders are not quite what I like for this work.

Also the HO B side leather has been hit or miss. Don't get me wrong, a lot of it is great. Just a lot of softer belly side leather sometimes. Some orders I can use nearly all of it, some orders I'm tossing a pretty large piece in the odd leather box. I may look into ordering a shoulder instead. The square foot price has kept me from it. But if it's only for all leather rigs then it should work out.

My 1.5" punch arrived a few days ago. I am already liking it. Kicking myself for not ordering it sooner.

Could the holsters be better? Certainly. Are they functional? I believe so. I would not ship them out if I did not think they were going to function properly. And I can assure you I'm not breaking the bank on my price either. I'm not saying I'll turn out a low quality product because of the price point. But since I am just getting going I'm not fetching the prices that other makers are. I'm going to deliver the best quality I can. But at this price I think I'm generally on or exceeding expectations. I'm working towards more exceeding and less meeting. If they are not happy I would either buy it back or replace it. That's what I do with my other holsters. Although I've only refunded one in the last 8 months. But before that happens, the check actually has to arrive. Still waiting.