How much to charge...,

[TwinOaks]

Hi to all,

I"ve been presented with an opportunity to do some custom carvings for some people, and wondered how much $$ is considered appropriate. The work will be done on purses, jacket panels, and some may be as large as a double bend. Also, I've made a few 5x8 pieces that are frameable. I've had some input from several people locally, but none of them are in any type of leather production. So, as asked: How much is this type of work worth? The inlcuded pic is suitable for 8.5 x 11 inches, framed.

[Regis]

Difficult question because you are asking the price of artwork because you are not making the final item. Plus we haven't seen/felt it. Your horse looks very good but, will these each be custom designs or same images over and over with little change. I've shown in some galleries (jewelry) and artwork pricing depends on quality AND reputation of maker. Artwork simply brings what someone is willing to pay. A lot will depend on complexity and how much you need to make per hour. At minimum, decide and hourly cost plus leather and be sure to allow for loss. Then see if they are willing to pay.

One caution though, don't use their leather, use your own. Reason is "when" (not if) you mess one up, you can replace it at your leather cost and not their's(which may include other costs like cutting). And, you need paid when you deliver not when they sell the finished item.

my 2c

[whinewine]

Twin Oaks: I know what you mean, & I don't wish to be a naysayer, but...

What I have often found is a snobbish, or an uninformed attitude of... 'Oh- that's not really art- it's just "leather"' or, 'that's not really art- it's just "photography"' (or "welding" or "quilling" or "...whatever_____{fill in the blanks}______...").

Most people won't pay for quality because:

1) they don't believe it's art

2) they aren't cognizant of the amount of time we put into our work

3) most of the Art Community doesn't recognize leather as a viable artistic medium

4) people truly believe they can get exactly the same thing at walmart for $9.99

But, by God, they'll spend $29.95 for a velvet elvis ('well, it's a real paintin', ain't it?), stick it on their walls & proclaim their ignorance to the world.

Best of luck. Regis also makes good points & good sense.

[Spider]

Well, I have had the same situation with my pieces. I am currently making some skulls out of leather with sort-of a Day of the Dead theme and I was wondering how much to charge. I am just gonna figure $15 per because the piece of leather I use is less than 20 bucks. It takes me about 1 hour to do each. The dye is not alot for each of them. Most of it is my labor...like everything else. I will post some of them as their own topic in a bit.

Edited January 18, 2008 by Spider

[Michael Sheldon]

My shop calculations:

Materials cost x 2

plus

Standard labor charge $35/hour

plus

Artistic Labor charge $50/hour

Standard labor charge=assembly, stitching, stamping, dying, etc

Artistic labor charge= fancy carving, painting, etc

Logic:

First, I always double materials costs. There's waste/loss, cost of shipping/gas to get them, then just the cost of having the stuff hanging around until you need it. Trust me, this will *just* cover your actual costs.

As far as the labor charge, some might think it high, better craftsman might think it low. The trick is to honestly asses what your time is worth. Keeping in mind that this must cover taxes etc. Also keeping in mind that it's rare to be able to bill 8 hours of labor in an 8 hour day averaged over time. Don't think of it as like you were being paid by an employer, your employer charges/accounts for a lot more than what they actually give you. The labor charges are also where you make back the cost of equipment and facilities.

The hard part is often estimating the time needed for a job ahead of time. This comes with experience.

[TwinOaks]

I forgot to mention this in the original post, but here goes- my target clientele won't really be stretching to afford anything. The money is there, and this will more or less be my break into this type of business. That said, I'm looking for a fair pricing guide. Michael Sheldon's $35/hr seems pretty fair to me, and seems to jive with other professional labor costs. This will hopefully get me introductions to folks who want more of this type work. The pieces will not be the same- I'm shooting for custom carvings- portrait style Being fairly new to leather, I may run into requests for work that I'm simply unprepared for, and if that's the case, I'll certainly post it here.

The pictured piece will most likely end up as a jacket panel. I've got a source for stitching this to a jacket, and simply need to put a good finish on it ....Neat-lac? Resolene?

[freak]

Also you gotta keep in mind what if they do want 100 more. Are you willing to do 100 more at that cost. I say always go high. No one is going to fight you over a price being lowered but, try to raise your price and see what happens.

I've charged prices that people thought i was crazy to charge. If they don't like it then i tell'em thanks and walk away. 9 out of 10 times i'm stopped and asked how long does it take to make. Then they start to understand the price. Remember they don't work for free and neither do you ! Then again i might be slow also. LOL !!

[Tina]

I agree with Freak & Michael Sheldon Big Time!

The only people that can raise the staus of handcraft is the handcrafters:-) We need many times colletivily to have the guts to value our time, work and knollage and get paid properly.

For some reason the many people has the idea that..."Handcraft, you do get something for nothing" and it seams to be universal.

Whishig you all the best of luck TwinOaks :-)

Edited January 20, 2008 by Tina

[Billy P]

Hey everyone, first let me say that I am probably the last one to give advice on pricing. However I have changed my way of doing that in the last year. Our own Bruce Johnson says that he likes to get at least per hour what the UPS driver gets for delivering what he orders, LOL, wouldn't we all. I don't sell anything at all, but If someone wants me to make something for them I do suggest a certain donation to replace my leather and to pay for other materials, plus by a new tool when it comes out. I can't do leatherwork and charge for it because I'm disabled and on SS Disability. The Gov. won't even let me volunteer to feed the dogs at the local Pet Facility, LOL, disabled folks, not dead yet. Lately I have hardly been doing anything at all Diabetes, tearing me up, big time. However I got to where I'm worth at least what the people that change tires at Wal-Mart is worth per hour. If the Dentist around here can charge $75 on up to spend 20min. pulling a tooth then I am for sure worth more that the $1 or 2 an hour they want to pay someone like up to make them nice belts, wallets, purses, etc. After reading some of the post by Bruce, David G, Frank Z., and a bunch of other knowledgeable Professional and Semi-Professional leather crafters I changed the way I charge for my work. I want to be fair to them, but I also want to be fair to me and my wife too. When I'm working on there stuff 1) taking time from my family, 2)using up leather and other material, 3)cost of the space and power for lights, water, etc., all have to be paid for from somwhere. I've got a shop building out back, not big, but enough for my use, however it was running my power bill up $75 to $100 a month and I wasn't getting it back either. Paying for it out of my little SS check. Now if they ask I'll tell them how much donation and if they want it fine a deposit and we'll get-er-done if not get the hell on out of here, cause I am going to watch T.V. with my wife for awhile. Since I've had to retire, my job where I used to work was cut out, but a comparable job there would be paying me about $17 to $18.50 an hour, so shouldn't I get that if I am paying all the over head expense and doing all the work. If I went back to the construction work that I did for years in Nuclear Power Plants I could expect to get $28 to $35 an hour plus another $75 to $125 a day tax free per deim. So to get to the point if they don't want to pay at least a good part of what it's worth tell them to go to Wal-Mart and let them make it for them. Some years back I made a good friend a belt for himself and another for his son. Sometime later he came up an brought his wife, who I didn't hardly know anyway. She liked their belts and wanted me to make her a pocketbook, she picked out one like the MarketPlace bags that Tandy, Hidecrafters, etc., sold. Then she looked through some things and picked out what she wanted tooled on it along with her name. She finally asked me how much for that and because Troy and I were friends I told her $165.00, LOL, I thought she was gonna choke to death or something. Not no, but Hell no that's too much, so I asked her how much did you pay for the bag that you've got with you and she said I got a good deal on this bag it was on sale at such and such for $239.95. Then I liked to have choked or something, but the end result was I told her to get the hell out of my house and told Troy to come see me when he could, but I would not do any thing for her. Later she asked me several times about doing some things always same answer she gave me not no but Hell no. Just a few times and she has left me along about it. Anyway enough rambling for now, but remember this if you're gonna make like you're proud of it then price it and sell it like you're proud of it. Different areas will have a different amount that the market will stand, but find it and go for the top especially if you're the only one around that can do what you do. Billy P

[broncobuster]

well put Billy. Ive been one who dont charge enough then I got smart lol took a while but when you get comments like I can get it cheaper at walmart or the truck stop I finally said go there and get it. youll be back cause you know what the quality is. Ive got people who give me a hard time on replacing zippers in coats n stuff Im going it takes this long to take it out this long to put the new one in then this amount for the zipper a good metal one. then i get well i can get a whole new coat for that. then I go youll be back cause that zipper will go out. they wake up after a bit or they never come back. never a loss there is always more to show up and do pay what its worth. when I have time at shows Ill do some tooling then i have watchers then they start to realize that its not one big stamp that it takes a lot of time to put in those patterns on something. then I get orders. just do what ya got to do. if this is your living ya got to charge.

[Jordan]

I appeciate this post as I am one who is learning the how much to charge lessons, It is a difficult topic to ponder in a day and age that most everyone has been brainwashed into the walleyworld definition of price and quality. I have to constantly remind myself to steele my resolve and ask a realistic price for my items, reactions be damned. I admit I am guilty of it myself when I need to purchase something or other. And as stated in prior posts, let-um go to walmart, works for me. The way I try to see it is if a customer wants real quality and has some understanding of the time and effort I put into my stuff, they WILL be back and pay the price I ask. If they don't then chances are pretty good I don't need them as a customer, some are just not worth the trouble. I have not sold alot of stuff but I have found that there are not alot of people doing leatherwork around here, so the market is ok... Just my 2cents worth on the subject, anyway glad to see there are a few other rambling old farts hangin around. LOL Jordan

[Michael Sheldon]

Another interesting bit I've learned, and it's true on both crafts and in retail.

The less a customer pays, the more they demand.

I first learned this in the printing industry. The guy who comes in and haggles you for every penny down to your rock-bottom price for a few hundred prints, will go over each and every one with a magnifying glass and make you re-do ever one that has even the slightest imagined flaw until you find you've lost significant money on the job. On the other hand, the guy that comes in for a few thousand prints and doesn't even *ask* for a discount will take the job without more than a couple random checks. He trusts you to do your job properly and knows you need to pay your expenses.

If a customer tries to haggle you down, stand firm. If they say they will walk away, let them. The customer is *not* always right, and customers who do not value your work as much as you do will cost you in the long run.

[YRsaddles]

Amen Michael,

I found that people will consantly try to get something for nothing...I've had plenty of people I've had to politely show the door...they seem to think a one man operation can crank out 20 saddles a week and that I should be able to compete with all the other manufactured saddle company's price...I say I don't manufacture saddles here I do custom work and it comes with a custom price.

Dave

[AKRob]

Don't be embarrased to get paid!

Don' sell on consignment, heck I hate to sell wholesale:-) If you get too buy, raiseyour prices a bit. This does not always work, you'll reach a point when potential cliants can see the value and are attracted by the higher price.

One thing most ofmy customers realize is that they are not buying a something that will only last a few years.

Rob (who needs to charge more for his belts)

[Kimmee]

My shop calculations:

Materials cost x 2

plus

Standard labor charge $35/hour

plus

Artistic Labor charge $50/hour

Standard labor charge=assembly, stitching, stamping, dying, etc

Artistic labor charge= fancy carving, painting, etc

Logic:

First, I always double materials costs. There's waste/loss, cost of shipping/gas to get them, then just the cost of having the stuff hanging around until you need it. Trust me, this will *just* cover your actual costs.

As far as the labor charge, some might think it high, better craftsman might think it low. The trick is to honestly asses what your time is worth. Keeping in mind that this must cover taxes etc. Also keeping in mind that it's rare to be able to bill 8 hours of labor in an 8 hour day averaged over time. Don't think of it as like you were being paid by an employer, your employer charges/accounts for a lot more than what they actually give you. The labor charges are also where you make back the cost of equipment and facilities.

The hard part is often estimating the time needed for a job ahead of time. This comes with experience.

Thanks Michael! I have been looking for a way to price my items and this will be a great guide for me!

Cheers!

~ Kim

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I am a member of the Vegas Artists Guild, and they don't care what medium you work in , or if you have any artistic talent at all. They are more interested in that you have an appreciation for art.

This subject is common with any medium used in art. I am also on the blacksmithing forum iforgeiron.com where this subject was covered at length. You may want to check that thread out in the business side of blacksmithing section, as a lot of the principals are the same no matter what is being worked.

Labor, supplies, and overhead are fairly easy to calculate, but it is the perceived value of your item to the customer that is the tough one to get right. Some items are sold on the brand name alone, not so much the quality of the item. Gucci, Calvin Klein, and a host of other brands to numerous to mention come to mind. Some customers will question your quality, or skill, if you don't charge enough-perceived quality.

We also have to deal with the Wal-Mart, made in China effect on handmade goods. Why is that hand thrown coffee mug $25? I can get a ceramic mug at the 99 cent store. Wal-Mart has "forged" candle stands for $9.99, and you want how much for yours? We need to really impress to the potential customer that if they want a one of a kind truly hand made quality item that they come to us. If they want an item that millions of other people can buy all over the world, then they need to go to Wal-Mart.

Just because what we do may be considered a craft it still takes skill to pull it off right. That skill comes after a big investment in tooling, materials, and years of practice. The biggest investment we make is in ourselves. If they want to make the same investment then they can do what we do too. They are coming to you because they cannot do it themselves, or they do not have the equipment to do the work. You need to make a decent wage to keep a roof over your head, and food on the table. Do not be ashamed to charge what you need to in order to accomplish that. There will always be someone that is willing to do the work for less, let them. If you compete with them you will not make a profit either.

One way that I read about setting prices when it came to gunsmithing was to watch the customers face, and do not give a blanket price. Say I am doing some work on a rifle, it would go something like this. OK, that will be $50 for the recoil pad-no reaction, $10 to R&R the stock-no reaction, $20 to trim and dress the stock-a reaction is noticed-stop there as you have reached the pain level of that customer. Each one will be different. A guy who owns a $200 Mossberg shotgun will have a lower pain level than the guy who owns a $100,000 Holland and Holland side by side. Give a basic price then start adding details till you get a reaction.

One of the blacksmiths was at a show where another smith was selling similar items for far less money. He went to his booth, and bought all of his inventory to get it off of the table. Folks who do this as a hobby, and have little to no overhead can sell for far less than someone with a business. In the end though the lower prices will cheapen everyones perceived value. Just because your overhead is low doesn't mean that you shouldn't charge what it can bring. If you get every job you bid, your prices are too low.

So what happens if you give a low price than a few months down the road your costs go much higher due to something like fuel prices going through the roof which jacks the shipping of your materials up? Your leather supplier has a fire which wipes out their stock, and they won't be up and running again soon, so you have to go to someone that charges a higher price. Do you want to spend all of your free time working for that customer just to make ends meet? I would look at what skilled tradesmen in your area are making; plumbers, electricians, welders, machinists, HVAC techs, and auto mechanics at the local dealerships. You pay for their skills when you need something done, why shouldn't someone pay for yours if they want something done by you?

BTW, I never charged enough when I had my machine and fab shop back when I was in my late 20's. This was driven home many years later when I was working at the Jelly Belly Candy Co. Our purchasing agent asked me if I could have made a part that they had just bought. I looked it, and it was a simple enough part. "How many?" "20" "I'd have a hard time telling you $100, probably more like $60." "Really?" Yea, they would take less than 1hr each to make, and material cost is a couple of bucks." "We paid $300 each, and that is less than what the OEM wanted." So some company got $6,000 for a job that I would have had a hard time charging $1,200 for. My problem is that I know what it takes to make something, and for me it is easy to do. I never thought about the fact that if it was that easy they would be doing it themselves.

[WanderingStar]

I have the same problem, or almost the same problem. People ask me what I charge for something and I'm never quite sure what to tell them. I've only just started selling things for profit, most of my other work has been for family and they they basically just pay for the material and I do the work. I've only been leather crafting for three years now. Like for a belt... what should be base price for a custom belt be, where do you draw the price range lines, people balk at how much a custom piece of work costs. what about other things. I'm never quite sure what to say. because I hate saying one thing and then discovering that it was more and then they don't want to pay more.

Help please.

[TwinOaks]

I broached this subject with Johanna sometime after I posted this thread. She related some info from John Henry that goes something like this: You know you're at the right price when the customer gets a pained look on his/her face, but still reaches for their wallet.

There's also a thread on pricing that gives some info on gauging the customers and looking for visual queues from them as to what they think is a fair price and what they expect to pay. You add small increments as you talk, and look for that reaction. Ex: " Base belt is $35"...(no reaction from customer)....."Color, seal, and finish is the standard $10."...(no reaction)......"Custom tooling is $40 for this size belt.".....(reaction!!! be prepared to stop at this price)......"And this buckle is $25"....(strong reaction, be ready to back down)......"but, if you prefer, I can locate a less expensive buckle or you can supply one of your own and I'll be happy to install it for you".....(look of relief, you have reached the maximum price for this belt at $85).

Or....alternately.....You reach the limit you're prepared to charge and haven't seen the customer react, you add in "I also thought you'd like some of the heirloom quality Sterling Silver buckles, but I wanted to check with you before ordering a $350 buckle". If this happens more than once - where you've set your price and the customer was expecting to pay more.....raise your prices.

[woodandsteel]

I've been trying to figure out pricing for my holsters. I decided to set prices slightly high, and had several interested customers not respond once I gave then a price quote, so I figured my prices were too high, and decided to lower them by $5.

Yesterday I was showing a holster to the guys at a local gun store, and quoted a price to an interested customer. The shop employee said, "That's a steal!". Hmm... maybe my prices weren't too high after all.

[Leela Valley Leather]

I had the same issues when I first started selling tobacco pouches locally and market days etc.

In the beginning I was charging $AU20 and everything sold, that was great, except I wasnt making any money.

The first thing I did was have a look at the local market for similar products, guess what? I was the only one making them, sure you can buy some for $AU15-18 at the local tobacconist but they were either cheap compound leather from India or linen things from Nepal.

Having looked at what was available online (mostly cheap looking or overly complex and bulky) I decided to charge $AU5 more than the cost of a 50g pouch of tobacco.

The plain pouches (standard tan/black/brown) now go well at $AU40 each (very simple, 3 bits of leather with a roo skin thong to wrap around to hold closed).

Anything else is between $AU5-15 extra PER embellishment (fancy colour $5, initials at $5/letter, braded thong closure $15, different stitching $10 etc)

The local market seems to be quite happy to pay for it and at 30-45 mins per pouch I'm covering my costs, fuel and a nice dinner once a week.

I suppose what I'm trying to convey is "know your market and competition".

Initials were added as an after thought by the buyer (not impressed...)

[George B]

For my local work it is whatever the market will bear, the more experience I get the better my work. That said, if it something I will not make any money on, I pass.

Internet business I charge more. My prices have slowly been going up since I started my ETSY store and I have seen an increase in orders and existing item sales. Someday I hope to make my $25 an hour but for now it pays the bills and gives me a meager income.

If it is an item I already have a pattern for and it requires no additional time to engineer, I charge a little less.

I did learn this Christmas season not to take on anything that took up to much of my time. A couple items became time consuming and put me behind. Next year that will not happen.

[DHauser]

Hmmm, good stuff. Looks like everybody's trying to figure it out. I also double the price of materials up front. I also have a minimum of $100.00 for anything that goes out of my shop. A complex design adds more (no real rule, just a rule of thumb as it were). I also add a bit for the complexity of manufacture. Unfortunately I am probably luckyto get $15.00/hour for labor. I do keep patterns for everything I make so at the worst I only have to modify the original pattern for a bit of a different piece. The better I get the more the price is going to rise. I've just got to figure out how much the market will bear.

[Leela Valley Leather]

Does anyone else here have a PITA Factor adjustment to the price?

[Cyberthrasher]

Does anyone else here have a PITA Factor adjustment to the price?

It's tempting sometimes, but no. What would you do if the customer who got that adjustment ended up meeting up with another customer of yours and found out that they got charged differently? Chances are that wouldn't happen for the most part, but I know that's not the kind of moral issue I want to introduce to my business. Keep it fair across the board and everything will work out right. Besides, I find that most of the time the PITA factor comes in because they really care about what they're getting, so once they're assured of that with the first order, hopefully it won't be that way again.

[George B]

Have to agree with Cyberthrasher, some customers are just easier to deal with than others. A couple of my worst have turned into my best advertisement tool.

I have decided not to take some projects due to extremely bad attitudes and some I just felt I would never have been able please.

And yes, a couple I took on that still haunt me today.

I have no PITA charge, just a yes or no.