Problem With My Juki Pro 2000

[Dogface]

I have owned this machine for years and it usually works well. Mostly I use 346 on top and 277 in the bobbin. Needle size is 230. I just moved my shop from my barn up to a loft above our detached garage and had the machine serviced during the move. I'm now having real problems with it. It seems that on one later of leather...maybe 8-9oz...it sews OK but makes a scratching sound on the way out of the leather. On thicker leather or more than one layer it scratches louder and sometimes will just not come out of the leather at all without me using both hands on the wheel to force it out. Often the top thread gets frayed or breaks. Yes, the top thread is lubed. Even if I change needles to a new one it still does this and there are no barbs on the needle that I can feel.

I really don't want to have to take it anywhere since its so darn heavy.

Hopefully someone here will have an idea for me to try....

Mark

Edited October 27, 2012 by Dogface

[Trox]

Check if your handwheel is loose on the drive shaft.

Trox

[dirtclod]

I have the same machine and sometimes it dose the same thing on some sides. I'm thinking it's rawhide in the leather where it didn't all the way. Mine makes a sound sorta like when ya pull a nail. The only thing that i found that helps is to take the tread out of the needle and the arm at the top and lay it in the tension disk at the top and sew the piece with no thread then thread it again and stitch and will still do the same thing sometimes.

Edited October 28, 2012 by dirtclod

[Trox]

I think you have to bring it back to service, frayed and broken threads means the timing is off. They may have forgotten to tighten down som screwes on the hook shaft after adjusting it. You have to complain about the service job. Since you had it serviced you are not your own mechanic. If you are, you should check all shafts and screws are tight, and then check the hook timing.

Trox

[Dogface]

Trox

I was afraid someone would say that

[Trox]

I am sorry to be the one with bad news, however you knew the answer yourself. Better safe than sorry. Have them to visit you, you should not pay for this.

[Ken Nelson]

I am sorry to be the one with bad news, however you knew the answer yourself. Better safe than sorry. Have them to visit you, you should not pay for this.

I would call Cobra Steve and see if he will sell you a manual for a Cobra Class 4. It has excellent instructions for timing the 441. Good resource to have. Ken

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Rule No1. If a machine is working fine then it needs no servicing beyond cleaning, oiling and checking the screws are tight. I see too many problems caused by "mechanics" who have no idea. I cannot claim to be an expert as I am learning as I go but you will know when your machine is not right by the sounds it makes and how it behaves.

Rule No2. refer rule No1

[CowboyBob]

Mark,

Sounds to me like your sewing on old or dried out leather,that's what the noise is,try putting some lube on the leather or at least between the 2- pieces & I'll bet the noise will go away.

Bob

[Dogface]

Bob..... I think you're on to something ! Thanks.

[CowboyBob]

Now that I'm fully awake,I'll explain it better.When it makes that noise it can lift the foot (with the leather) up on the upstroke of the needle & when that happens it won't make a good loop for the shuttle to catch & that will cause the skipping & frayed threads just like the timing being off will.

Bob

[Dogface]

Bob,

You seem to really have nailed the problem. I know my leather is old but still looks good. When I remove the thread from the needle and just punch holes it makes no such sound...it's only when there's thread in the needle and I know my needle/thread combo is correct. Trouble is that I have a lot of older leather left over that needs to be used. Yes, the thread goes thru a lube gizmo but guess it's not enough. I guess I'll have to just get some newer leather to test it.

Thanks for your input...

Mark

[Wizcrafts]

Mark;

Do you have any pre-lubricated thread on hand? It helps me sew into dry leather. I now get mine from Bob Kovar. He has most sizes and colors in stock and the price is nice.

The only color that gives me trouble, in any brand, is black, #138 up. It appears that some thread companies redye other colored spools into black (double-dying), making them springy and harder to the pull knots into the leather. Are you using springy black thread?

[Dogface]

Do you have a link for Bob Kovar... I guess I could google him. My thread is now old too and from Weaver. My leather stock is at least 5 years old and laying in my barn for that time. I'm betting that is my problem... It still looks good but likely very dry.

Edit: Found Bob Kovar and his web page...

Edited October 30, 2012 by Dogface

[Trox]

Sewing thread is "fresh food" it need to be kept like it too. I store my thread with plastic bags over the cones. If it becomes old and dry anyway, I use some Fibings liquid saddle soap on it. I soak the spool with soap foam and work it in to the thread. Old thread are nearly as good as new after this treatment. Bob knows the 441 machine very well, did the noice dissapere when you increased your foot pressure?

Hi Wiz,

so thats why the black threads act different than other colors. I been wondering why the black thread always needed a differnt tension setting. Hard to see what you are doing when you use the black thread too, it steals all the light. I do not like to use the black color much. You are using bonded nylon, do you know if they also recoloring the black polyester thread? I use Coats gral and Amman Serafil. They both are good threads, however Serafil stops at size tiket No. 8 Nm, (tex # 400). Coats make Gral in every sizes up to tex # 1400, 12 ply, however I have no good source for Coats thread here. I would like to try some American heavy bonded nylon, What sizes do your Cowboy 441 manage (with the original shuttle shim). What the biggest needle you have used on yours? It is a bit of topic, but I still would like to know.

Thank you.

Trox

[Dogface]

Trox,

Thanks for the post. I didn't realize that thread can age too. I've always just bought big spools from Weaver and never stored them any special way. As for using the soap foam on these big 1# spools, how do you get it all the way down in the whole spool ? Does it ever really dry and does that decay the thread eventually . I think the foot pressure adjuster on my Juki is broken or the threads stripped at least.

I did just re-thread the machine again yesterday and have the thread coming off the top/inside of the cone. That seemed to help a bunch...duhh.

[Trox]

It is the top layer of threads that dry out first, and it also collect dust that ruin the thread. When the thread is dry it frying easier, unvind and making stitching errors. I only spray the top layer of the spools. You can buy an new Juki presserfoot spring screw from Bob Kowar or one of the other klone dealers. I do not think it is expensive. Good luck with your machine.

Thanks

Trox

[Dogface]

Trox,

Actually I looked at my pressor foot tensioner and it's fine. Thanks for the advice on treating the thread. I'll try it today. My thread is at least as old as my leather. I can afford to buy new thread if I have to but I gotta make use of the hides I still have.

[Ken Nelson]

Trox,

Actually I looked at my pressor foot tensioner and it's fine. Thanks for the advice on treating the thread. I'll try it today. My thread is at least as old as my leather. I can afford to buy new thread if I have to but I gotta make use of the hides I still have.

Sometimes on really dry leather, I will put a little moisture in it and sew it just barely damp. A little oil will help with some of that older harder leather sometimes. I repair a lot of older tack and some of it is very dry and old. It does help to bampen it. A couple of my friends mix lexol leather conditioner and water for dry hard leather. HTH Ken

[Wizcrafts]

Hi Trox!

Right now, I use #277 in my Cowboy CB4500, using either a #24/180 or 25/200 type 794 Schmetz needle. Sometimes I have to crank the pressure spring all the way down to sew hard leather 3/8 inch (10mm) or thicker.

When I need to sew really thick or tough material, with #346 or larger thread, I use my Union Lockstitch machine. The pressure spring on top of it resembles the old front fork spring used on Schwinn bicycles in the 1950s. I built a chopper out of a Triumph Terrier, using a Schwinn springer fork, when I was in my early teens. The spring on the ULS is very similar and can hold down the thickest leather and even plywood.

I have some #346 bonded polyester thread, I bought from Campbell-Bosworth. It has a softer hand than any bonded nylon in similar sizes. I don't know if it has less tensile strength also. I just sewed a double 14-15 ounce weight lifter's belt on the ULS, using this Campbell thread and had no problems whatsoever. I used a #3 needle and #3.5 awl (tight fit; no slack). The knots were easily pulled well up into the layers. I used black on top and natural on the bottom. There was no springiness in the black polyester thread. I am thinking about trying some black in size 277.

[Trox]

Hi Trox!

Right now, I use #277 in my Cowboy CB4500, using either a #24/180 or 25/200 type 794 Schmetz needle. Sometimes I have to crank the pressure spring all the way down to sew hard leather 3/8 inch (10mm) or thicker.

When I need to sew really thick or tough material, with #346 or larger thread, I use my Union Lockstitch machine. The pressure spring on top of it resembles the old front fork spring used on Schwinn bicycles in the 1950s. I built a chopper out of a Triumph Terrier, using a Schwinn springer fork, when I was in my early teens. The spring on the ULS is very similar and can hold down the thickest leather and even plywood.

I have some #346 bonded polyester thread, I bought from Campbell-Bosworth. It has a softer hand than any bonded nylon in similar sizes. I don't know if it has less tensile strength also. I just sewed a double 14-15 ounce weight lifter's belt on the ULS, using this Campbell thread and had no problems whatsoever. I used a #3 needle and #3.5 awl (tight fit; no slack). The knots were easily pulled well up into the layers. I used black on top and natural on the bottom. There was no springiness in the black polyester thread. I am thinking about trying some black in size 277.

Hi Wiz,

You still have that monster ULS machine, I thought you had sold it. That is a beast of a machine; I have no doubt that can sew real heavy stuff. However, your 441 can do the job too. I took the speed reducer, clutch motor of my 441, and replaced them with an Efka 1550. A very good motor, I can go as thick as the machine allows. I use the same size Schmetz needle (200) with # 277 polyester. I can go down one size thread and needle, any further the needles get very thin and can easily make stitch errors. # 400 is the heaviest threads I have; I would like to try some # 500 I do not think that is any trouble. I have a Pfaff 345 cylinderbed I use for # 180 down to # 45. If you want to try good polyester, try coats Gral. It is lubricated polyester, very soft and more than strong enough for leather. German Amman Serafil I use much too, it is very similar to the Gral. Here is the data sheet

http://www.coatsindustrial.com/en/images/Gral%20Datasheet%202012-09_tcm35-17272.pdf .

[Wizcrafts]

Hi Wiz,

You still have that monster ULS machine, I thought you had sold it. That is a beast of a machine; I have no doubt that can sew real heavy stuff. However, your 441 can do the job too. I took the speed reducer, clutch motor of my 441, and replaced them with an Efka 1550. A very good motor, I can go as thick as the machine allows. I use the same size Schmetz needle (200) with # 277 polyester. I can go down one size thread and needle, any further the needles get very thin and can easily make stitch errors. # 400 is the heaviest threads I have; I would like to try some # 500 I do not think that is any trouble. I have a Pfaff 345 cylinderbed I use for # 180 down to # 45. If you want to try good polyester, try coats Gral. It is lubricated polyester, very soft and more than strong enough for leather. German Amman Serafil I use much too, it is very similar to the Gral. Here is the data sheet

http://www.coatsindustrial.com/en/images/Gral%20Datasheet%202012-09_tcm35-17272.pdf .

I prefer to sew with #277 and down on my Cowboy, and #277 and up on the Union Lockstitch. If I didn't have these two machines I would do it all on whichever machine I owned. The fact is that I had the Union Lockstitch first. It is my second ULS machine and I love them.

I used to sew fishtails onto gunbelts on the ULS, which requires spinning the flywheel by hand, one stitch at a time, feathering the clutch to get 355 degrees of rotation, then hand-wheeling over the the last 5 degree hump. Now, I slow down my servo motor to 600 and sew fishtails using the Cowboy, at about 1 stitch per second, with my foot down; pedal to the metal.

The Juki Pro 2000 is a jump-foot, needle feed machine, right? I like that feed system.

[Trox]

The Juki Pro 2000 is to my knowledge a Juki 441 wit a pat. lower needleguide|.

[Dogface]

Really? I had no idea. What is the needle guide that the 441 has? I figured that the 2000 was not made any more. Been trying to figger mine out and think I have running right.

[CowboyBob]

Ferdco took the standard Juki feed dog & needle plate off & put a slotted plate & the lower needle guide on these,the problem we found is the stitch length shortened in reverse w/o the feed dog being there.