CustomDoug Report post Posted October 31, 2012 I've been in Harbor Freight a couple times lately... and keep wondering about the hand riveters and wondering if they'd be any use with leather. Rivets seem like a whole can of worms in general to me and I need to research what kind of rivets I'd even need to get but I'm thinking of stuff like copper rivets, etc (like on jeans and boots but on leather in general). Various sizes of rivets would be important - Does anyone know if those hand held riveters at HF would work for this? Until I can get a more professional one any way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Horrrk Report post Posted October 31, 2012 Hi Doug.. Do you mean the pop rivet guns? Like this one? http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-riveter-set-38353.html I think they can work, depending on the application and as long as you put reinforcing washers on too.. Earlier this year my motorcycle panniers burnt through to the contents, after they started sagging onto my exhaust with all the rain we've had over here. I made plastic back strengthener panels for them, then glued and also used pop rivets to hold them on. They've done the trick so far. I just used some extra wide headed rivets at the plastic side and stainless washers to the rear, so they wouldn't pull through the leather. The main thing I'll say about using that type of rivet, is that the backside of them is as ugly as someone else's baby, IMHO, so make sure that its not on view.. Regards Phil ps. There are also beautiful versions of other people's babies available.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TwinOaks Report post Posted October 31, 2012 I agree with everything Phil said, and will add that you CAN pretty them up a bit.....in a 'modern art' sense of pretty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katsass Report post Posted October 31, 2012 FWIW from the grump; I don't much care for pop-rivets at all - - let alone in working with leather. Springfield Leather has old-fashioned rivet sets and copper rivets and burs in a couple of sizes. They end up looking like this. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CustomDoug Report post Posted October 31, 2012 Yea I guess the pop-riveter probably isn't the way to go then.. I want it to look nice on both sides. Now, the ones on that Holster look great! What do you use to set them with? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katsass Report post Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) You use the rivet set (a single tool, not a group of things) that you may purchase from Springfield Leather or other suppliers. Just match the size of the set to the size of the rivet. I use #9 sized rivets on the rare occasion I happen to need them. Mike Edited October 31, 2012 by katsass Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CustomDoug Report post Posted October 31, 2012 You use the rivet set (a single tool, not a group of things) that you may purchase from Springfield Leather or other suppliers. Just match the size of the set to the size of the rivet. I use #9 sized rivets on the rare occasion I happen to need them. Mike I'm not finding an individual tool (single item) used for rivets when searching their site with the fraise "rivet set". Maybe you were meaning the "Rivet Setter" which pops up a single item (that you strike with a hammer) but I think even that needs an anvil under it. Regardless... I think what I'm most interested in is the bench mounted hand press type rivet setter http://springfieldleather.com/30137/Press%2CHand/ , of course you can get old used ones on ebay for much cheaper (usually Rex brand etc).. but I'm confused by it. Are extra pieces needed to do a variety of rivet sizes (like various die or whatever) - does anyone know? Springfield's add mentions a die for line 20 snaps but what about the various rivet sizes? And if so, could those pieces still be sourced somewhere? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HellfireJack Report post Posted October 31, 2012 There are multiple sized tubular and ready rivets that press could be used for. It's not for copper rivets I don't think. Rapid rivets and tubular rivets can be pressed. Copper rivets need to be clipped and peened over with a hammer then rounded with the ball socket of the tool below.. For # 9 copper rivets the tool you need is this one. http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/search/searchresults/8110-00.aspx You can get it from springfield too I guess. search rivet setter rather than set. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katsass Report post Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) HellfireJack has it right. I don't know why they added the 'er' on the end of rivet 'set' - - it's been called a 'set' for as long as I have known of them, and I have used all sizes of rivets and burrs over the years - - mainly on farm equipment, but now and then on leather. As far as I'm concerned, if you actually NEED a rivet on leather, the copper ones are what you use. Those 'Speedy' rivets, or Rapid rivets have been known to come apart. Mike Edited October 31, 2012 by katsass Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CustomDoug Report post Posted October 31, 2012 ... As far as I'm concerned, if you actually NEED a rivet on leather, the copper ones are what you use. I mostly agree but there are some items where "double cap" rivets are esthetically better for finer items. So.. one of these hand presses for double cap rivets and a hammer type "set" for the copper rivet and burr... OR does anyone know for sure if the copper rivet and burr style can or can't be clipped and peened after setting with a hand press? I ask, because I've used the hammer style "sets" on snaps and eyelets/grommets with less than perfect results. Which is a big reason I started looking for a better option. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HellfireJack Report post Posted October 31, 2012 That little setter probably wouldn't handle copper rivets too well. I wouldn't use anything less than a one ton arbor press. Perhaps if ease and looks are what you're looking for Chicago screws might be easier an option? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CustomDoug Report post Posted October 31, 2012 That little setter probably wouldn't handle copper rivets too well. I wouldn't use anything less than a one ton arbor press. Perhaps if ease and looks are what you're looking for Chicago screws might be easier an option? Really? I'm surprised.. you're saying that hand press at Springfield and Tandy is too light weight for copper rivets and burrs? But earlier you linked to a smallish (I assume) hammer punch kind of setter at Tandy.. but also say that you would not use anything less than an arbor press.. I think I may have gotten confused. Do you or have you used the tandy punch style setter? Also, I know nothing about arbor presses.. but Harbor Freight has a 1/2 ton one for $35 in your opinion would this be suitable for setting copper rivets into leather? http://www.harborfreight.com/1-2-half-ton-arbor-press-3551.html Thanks you guys. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katsass Report post Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) FWIW; copper rivets are set by first driving the burr down the slightly tapered shaft of the rivet with the use of a drilled hole in the set(er). When the burr is down solidly, the excess of the rivet is trimmed off and the second portion of the set is used to round over that portion left standing proud above the burr. I don't think that the little hand press even has a dye available to set the burr, and definitely is not powerful enough to actually 'set' the round head you want. Peening over the rivet just makes a mess aesthetically, although is will hold if done properly, but that's why a rivet set is used for this type of operation. Mike. Edited October 31, 2012 by katsass Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Art Report post Posted October 31, 2012 You might want to look at the from Weaver Leather. I have this machine and it is not for burr rivets. I set Burr rivets with a set of tools from Bob Douglas; call Vandy at Sheridan Leather.I have 2 Press-N-Snap setters from my boat canvas days loaded with everything to set Ligne 24 snaps. In the video, you will see all the adjusting going on with the Little Wonder. We sew most everything so we don't use rivets much and more often than not they are burr rivets for strength. In a production shop that uses a lot of different sizes and types of fasteners, a bunch of Little Wonders set up for the things you do the most and then a couple for the odd things would work nicely. Art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CustomDoug Report post Posted October 31, 2012 ....I don't think that the little hand press even has a dye available to set the burr, and definitely is not powerful enough to actually 'set' the round head you want. Peening over the rivet just makes a mess aesthetically, although is will hold if done properly, but that's why a rivet set is used for this type of operation. Mike. Yea, I knew how the copper set worked but I wasn't sure if the hand press could do the operation too, and whether a dye was available for both parts of the procedure - thus negating the need to buy the small hammering tool. Doesn't sound like that's possible though. I guess it doesn't matter, I was just trying to get as much done with the machine which I want to get anyway. Are there much difference in the new hand presses compared to the cheap old used ones you find on ebay? I guess finding out the hole size for the dyes is crucial. Also, do either utilize a dye on the top part for certain operations? If so, how's that held in (threaded maybe)? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CustomDoug Report post Posted October 31, 2012 You might want to look at the from Weaver Leather. I have this machine and it is not for burr rivets. I set Burr rivets with a set of tools from Bob Douglas; call Vandy at Sheridan Leather.I have 2 Press-N-Snap setters from my boat canvas days loaded with everything to set Ligne 24 snaps. In the video, you will see all the adjusting going on with the Little Wonder. We sew most everything so we don't use rivets much and more often than not they are burr rivets for strength. In a production shop that uses a lot of different sizes and types of fasteners, a bunch of Little Wonders set up for the things you do the most and then a couple for the odd things would work nicely. Art Hi Art, I like that little Wonder, I need to look into it. One question though.. when using the other tool(s) - for setting copper rivets (3 pieces Douglas tools) what happens to the side that you've clipped and peened when you have it flipped over to use the rivet "doming" punch on the other side? Seems like it would need to sit in an anvil with a hole in the center (to accomdate the peened stem). Otherwise, the dome side may come out crooked, no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TwinOaks Report post Posted October 31, 2012 The post of the rivet (which gets clipped) IS the part that gets peened over. The post is on the opposite end of the head...much like a nail, and the washer is driven down over it. The post has a slight taper at the tip to help align the washer, but you aren't likely to push it down by hand. Once you drive the washer down on the post, you clip off the excess post, leaving just a little nub. That little nub is literally BEATEN (peened) until you deform and spread the metal out to cover a portion of the washer. Once that is done, the only way to remove the washer is to move all that copper that's been peened down...which typically 'work hardens' it. As long as you have the washer in there, the leather is REALLY unlikely to work it loose. That is why they are so secure. My experience is that you need something pretty solid under the rivet, and a real hammer...NOT a mallet...to do the peening. After all, you're beating a short metal post into a wider and flatter piece of metal. Don't be afraid to smack it. I was having difficulty with the domed part of the set until I picked up 'enough' hammer (24oz smooth face Estwing) and flattened the post a good bit with direct impact. THEN I went about rounding it. P.S. Don't set copper burr rivets on your stamping block....unless you're angling for a new stamping block. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CustomDoug Report post Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) The post of the rivet (which gets clipped) IS the part that gets peened over. The post is on the opposite end of the head...much like a nail, and the washer is driven down over it. The post has a slight taper at the tip to help align the washer, but you aren't likely to push it down by hand. Once you drive the washer down on the post, you clip off the excess post, leaving just a little nub. That little nub is literally BEATEN (peened) until you deform and spread the metal out to cover a portion of the washer. Once that is done, the only way to remove the washer is to move all that copper that's been peened down...which typically 'work hardens' it. As long as you have the washer in there, the leather is REALLY unlikely to work it loose. That is why they are so secure. My experience is that you need something pretty solid under the rivet, and a real hammer...NOT a mallet...to do the peening. After all, you're beating a short metal post into a wider and flatter piece of metal. Don't be afraid to smack it. I was having difficulty with the domed part of the set until I picked up 'enough' hammer (24oz smooth face Estwing) and flattened the post a good bit with direct impact. THEN I went about rounding it. P.S. Don't set copper burr rivets on your stamping block....unless you're angling for a new stamping block. I feel bad that you wrote all that TwinOaks - maybe I didn't make it clear enough that I understood how the whole things work.. I already did, but thanks anyway. What I was asking about was the "domed set(ter)" that makes a dome on the opposite side.. the large head side. What I'm questioning is : when the assembled rivet is turned over (peened stud side down) wouldn't you need some kind of anvil with a hole in the middle (to accomodate the peened stud) while the "Dome setter" is doing it's job? Otherwise it seems to me that the dome on the rivet could come out crooked - because it's all teetering on the tip of the peened stud underneith. Edited October 31, 2012 by CustomDoug Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HellfireJack Report post Posted October 31, 2012 Really? I'm surprised.. you're saying that hand press at Springfield and Tandy is too light weight for copper rivets and burrs? But earlier you linked to a smallish (I assume) hammer punch kind of setter at Tandy.. but also say that you would not use anything less than an arbor press.. I think I may have gotten confused. Do you or have you used the tandy punch style setter? Also, I know nothing about arbor presses.. but Harbor Freight has a 1/2 ton one for $35 in your opinion would this be suitable for setting copper rivets into leather? http://www.harborfre...press-3551.html Thanks you guys. The setter is a solid piece of steel that can be hit multiple times to form the rivet head. They will probably be putting more force than that press can in a single blow. You effectively deform the rivet a little at a time. The problem with using hand tools to set hardware isn't generally too little force but rather too much force and often times in the wrong direction to set the hardware properly. I've seen those presses at Tandy and they don't look like they'd be strong enough to deform copper. With a press you can only ever achieve the max force its rated for and once you reach that and it fails to deform you don't have much of an option. I can't say for sure but I would be surprised if that Crafttool press could put out more than a few hundred pounds of force. I could be wrong. You'd have to contact Crafttool to truly find out but I'm sure if it was anywhere near a half ton it would say it in the features. The 1/2 ton press is fairly small. I can crush a #9 rivet with a little work using one though. You want to be able to do the work with as little effort as possible if you're going to be doing a lot of them. I would not want to use a 1/2 ton on multiple rivets every day. The more force the better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katsass Report post Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) FWIW: I'm lost and don't know what the hell you are talking about, There ain't no dome on a copper rivet - - it's flat as a pancake and - if properly set - sits flush with the surface of the leather. The side with the burr and peened stud sit just slightly proud of the opposite surface. It's over and finished with just a couple of whacks with a good hammer, as in these pics. Mike Edited November 1, 2012 by katsass Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CustomDoug Report post Posted November 1, 2012 FWIW: I'm lost and don't know what the hell you are talking about, There ain't no dome on a copper rivet - - it's flat as a pancake and - if properly set - sits flush with the surface of the leather. The side with the burr and peened stud sit just slightly proud of the opposite surface. It's over and finished with just a couple of whacks with a good hammer. Mike FWIW - I've been referring to this tool made by Douglas tools (and I assume other) ever since Art posted the link to Sheridan Leather http://www.sheridanleather.com/Rivet_Domer_p/dt-domer.htm . Sheridan sells a three piece set of copper rivet tools for $55 that includes a "rivet domer". SO yes the copper rivets come flat to begin with BUT you can dome the head side for a different look. That's all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katsass Report post Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) Doug - - Very sorry about that, I misread, misinterpreted or just screwed up and got off-track somewhere along the way, didn't intend to get under your skin - - but the pics I took are pretty good I think. Mike Edited November 1, 2012 by katsass Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CustomDoug Report post Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) Doug - - Very sorry about that, I misread, misinterpreted or just screwed up and got off-track somewhere along the way, didn't intend to get under your skin - - but the pics I took are pretty good I think. Mike Nah, you didn't get under my skin, I appreciate your input. I like the idea of "doming" the flat side of the copper rivet though on certain items. Here's the description from Sheridan ... " This tool domes the head of copper rivets to give your work a finished, professional look. " I think I'd get a small 'cupped' anvil (normally used for double capped rivets) and drill a hole in the center so I could use this "rivet domer" tool more effectively though. BTW... I'm wondering if this tool, the "rivet domer" is the same tool as a 'rapid rivet setter' used on the tubular double cap rivets? It looks the same but the domer may be more concave, not sure about that. Edited November 1, 2012 by CustomDoug Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katsass Report post Posted November 1, 2012 I think it's quite a bit larger in diameter that the one for the double cap rivets. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CustomDoug Report post Posted November 3, 2012 (edited) ...The 1/2 ton press is fairly small. I can crush a #9 rivet with a little work using one though. You want to be able to do the work with as little effort as possible if you're going to be doing a lot of them. I would not want to use a 1/2 ton on multiple rivets every day. The more force the better. Hey guys I'm really liking the idea of an arbor press for setting the NON-copper rivets, spots and snaps (maybe copper rivets too??). Forget the 1/2ton - there is a 1 ton on sale at Harbor Freight right now for $48 dollars. A machine shop will need to drill a few holes in it but it's still much cheaper than one of the hand presses from Tandy etc.. and more versatile. Here's a great video on the subject (if you can sit through the long LaBron James add at the beginning), it's worth a watch. Arbor Press for Leather and Kydex Work . I think I may get one of these. I just wish there was some way of adding a spring back feature to the lever, but oh well.. I just wish there was some way of adding a spring back feature to the lever, but oh well. Edited November 3, 2012 by CustomDoug Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
