Singer 111W155 Timing/thread Issues

[TSquared]

I just acquired a singer 111w155 waking foot machine. All the parts were there but it would not make a stitch to save my life. I down loaded and read every technical document I could find (most of them in this forum...thanks to all of you that contributed). I think I have the machine timed, but I would not take it to the bank. The needle bar has no marks so I used the 8 stitch setting to adjust to the hook. The timing mark for upper and lower was off by one tooth when the arm was at the highest point. I fixed that. The hook to needle was off by half an inch. I moved the large gear to the far left and turned the hook to align with the needle. So far so good. The needle to hook was off by a 1/16" so the hook just passed by the needle. I moved the hook assembly over till it just nicked the needle and backed it off a little. It now will pick up the lower thread. Here is where my issues start. When the needle is at the lowest point, the upper thread hangs loose from the upper arm by about an inch. I am 99% sure I have it threaded correctly. I am wondering if I still have a timing issue. With no tension on the upper thread, no stitch can be made as the thread just winds itself around the bobbin case. If anyone can tell me what the dimention is from the bottom of the needle bar to the bearing is, i can make a jig to set the needle bar (I have a milling machine and lathe). Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Tom

[Trox]

Hi Tom, You must go true the rest of the adjustments as well, like the feed timing. When you talk about the upper arm, do you mean the thread take up arm? If you post some pictures of your threading we can better help you. The thread take-up will allow the thread loop be picked up before it tension the thread. You must check your thread take up spring too, lower tension disk. It seems like a threading error. Post some pictures.

Trox

[gottaknow]

I'll be on the road tommorow looking at some new machines, but I will take some photos for you of the critical timing issues on the 111. I thought I had some pics of everything here on my home computer. It sounds like your timing belt is off a tooth or so. You can't always go by the shaft timing marks since people move those without knowing. Certain screws go into the upper and lower shaft grooves to orient them before you place the timing belt. If that's off, you'll never get the machine to sew correctly. After that, the timing is straight forward and simple. In the mean time, when you do set your hook to your needle, let the hook just barely nick the needle, then use the guard on the hook to move the needle away from the needle. You can do with a flat screwdriver (it's bendy). You need to do this as when sewing thicker fabric, your needle will deflect away from your hook. Without a tiny bit of deflection of the needle to start with, you'll likely get skipped stitches. As the take up lever moves down, it gives your thread slack to travel around the hook. When it rises back up, it helps set the stitch. If at loop taking time by your hook, there's too much slack from your take up lever, your top and bottom shaft timing is off which once corrected you'll be able to set your timing on your hook.

Regards, Eric

[TSquared]

Trod and Eric,

Thanks for the quick reply. When I set the timing, the thread take up lever was at the top most position. The timing mark on the bottom was off by one tooth. If I understand correctly, it is possible that the timing pulley could be off by several teeth if one of the set screws is in the wrong valley on the shaft. I will take some photos and see if I can figure out how to post them. Eric, I have to agree with you on the timing. Why else would I have to move so many different setting? Gee, I think I found how to attach a file. Off to the basement for some photos. Got photos, guess I can't use an iPad to load them. I will try tomorrow from my pc at work. Goodnight!

Tom

[CowboyBob]

Tom,

To time the hook,the hook point needs to be @ the needle when the needlebar raises up 3/32" from BDC .

Let me lnow if you have anymore questions.

Bob

[TSquared]

Bob,

I have the hook at the needle with just a .oo5 gap between hook and needle. the eye of the needle is about 1/16 below the hook. That being said, I am not confident that the needle bar is set correctly. there were no marks on the needle bar so I used the setting of 8tpi, needle 3/32 (approx) off bdc then adjusted needle bar to get the hook approx 1/16 above the eye. I am attaching some photos to this comment as requested by Trox and Eric

[CowboyBob]

Does it sew?

[TSquared]

No, unfortunatly not. When I got the machine the guy said it was "looked at" by a sewing machine guy. Said he was having trouble with it, paid the guy 90 bucks and got a "works fine" for his money. I build machinery for a living so I figured it can't be too hard to figure out. Oops! Anyhow, when I got it set up, the needle bar would hit the walking foot on its way down (the walking foot was not attached when I picked up the machine). It was at that point that I started to see different issues with the hook timing, needle bar timing etc. none of the manuals I have read give any step by step instructions for setup. I suppose that I mostly interpreted the manuals hoping that common scents would prevail. After several hours of looking under the hood, I understand some of the workings. This is a good forum and it appears that there are a lot of people who have had similar problems as mine. I hope I can learn enough to fix my problems and hopefully sometime in the future help someone else with their problems. Many thanks to those who are helping me.

Tom

[CowboyBob]

Ok,once you set the timing so the needle rises 3/32" from bottom dead center,then you need to make sure the needle height is set so the point of the hook is about 1/8" above the eye of the needle & it should sew.

[gottaknow]

I'm still thinking one of your timing gears for the upper and lower shafts aren't in the right spot in order to use the timing marks between the upper and lower shafts. I'll take pics for you tommorow so you can orient them accordingly. Then you can proceed to do your hook timing. If your feed timing is off, you can't set that either until your top and bottom shafts are coordinated. Once the shafts are timed correctly, you'll achieve all the other settings.

Regards, Eric

[TSquared]

Thanks Eric. Your help is greatly appreciated.

[gottaknow]

No problem Tom. I've got pics to upload for you tonight. Should help you get things going.

[Trox]

Hi Tom, I let Bob and Eric help you with this Singer, I have mostly Adler machines my self. I had a Singer 144W-305 (30 inch arm) very similar to your 111W, only bigger. However the adjustments is the same on them. Just remember when you have a timing issue like this it a reason for it. Most of the times its because of thread that jams in the hook. You must always remove the bobbin house and check for thread pieces underneath, clean it out and oil it. The machine has a clutch that protects the hook when it jams, the clutch might fail because of rust and dirt. Causing the drive belt to jump over some teeth. Or be hard to reset when its old. Anyway if you need a good service manual here is a link to a free E book, US army manual on several machine they used included yours. It might help you. http://books.google.com.au/books/about/Organizational_and_field_maintenance_man.html?id=jCUYAAAAYAAJ

Good luck

[gottaknow]

Ok, here's the first set of pics in order to make sure your shaft timing is correct. The machine shown is a Singer 112, a two needle version of the 111. Pay attention to how the set screws are on the lower belt gear. Orient that gear with the set screw shown. After that, move your take up lever all the way up. If your shafts are timed, the letter "B" mark on the belt gear will line up with the timing mark on the frame of the machine. If not remove the belt, leave the take up lever all the way up, and move and hold the lower gear with the "B" stamped on the gear. Replace the belt in this position. Your final belt timing will have your takeup lever all the way up, the lower "B" mark lined up with the line on the casting, and the arrow on the lower shaft lined up as well. Start with that and I'll follow up with my method of timing these machines.

Regards, Eric

[TSquared]

Trox, thanks for the link. I read most of the manual, I will print it tomorrow at work. Looks like a lot of good info there.

[TSquared]

Eric,

Got yor photos. My lower gear does not look like yours (mine seems th have some type of release built into it, see the photo I posted above. I also don't have a letter B stamped anywhere on the gear. The set screw in my gear appears to be in the same relation as in your photo.

Tom

[gottaknow]

You have a safety clutch release. It's designed to disengage when your machine is jammed. The timing is primarily the same. Take up lever all the way up there should be a timing mark somewhere on that gear that will line up with the timing mark on the lower shaft, or the casting when the take up lever is all the way up. That's the position you want your belt syncronized between the upper and lower shaft. Eric

Oh, and I should mention that's not the position where you time your hook to your needle. That's just the timing between the two shafts.

Edited November 8, 2012 by gottaknow

[Trox]

Trox, thanks for the link. I read most of the manual, I will print it tomorrow at work. Looks like a lot of good info there.

Your welcome, there are a free operating manual there as well, I have it in my PC. However, I did not find it when I searched for it. I found this one on Singerco.com industrial download http://parts.singerco.com/

http://parts.singerco.com/IPinstManuals/111W152_W153_W154_W155.pdf

This manual has the hook timing and other adjustments as well.

Maybe you already have it.

Good luck

Trox

[TSquared]

I think I might be a little confused. If the clogged gear is on the end of the lower shaft and the lower shaft also has a timing mark that aligns with a timing plate, why would the orientation of the cog gear mean anything if the timing marks line up and the take up arm is in the upmost position? I tend to over analyze things so I apologize in advance. Is the time mark you are referring to the same as in the photo I posted earlier?

[gottaknow]

I think I might be a little confused. If the clogged gear is on the end of the lower shaft and the lower shaft also has a timing mark that aligns with a timing plate, why would the orientation of the cog gear mean anything if the timing marks line up and the take up arm is in the upmost position? I tend to over analyze things so I apologize in advance. Is the time mark you are referring to the same as in the photo I posted earlier?

The gear normaly has a timing mark or an "a" or "b" stamped on it, or a line stamped on it. If it's not oriented on the shaft correctly, it changes the timing. If there's NO marks at all on the gear, then it won't matter. You can go by the timing mark shown in your picture and mine. If I have a machine that I've retimed, and there's no mark on the gear, I use a small cold chisel and create a timing mark between the gear and the casting of the machine. The reason being, if someone follows me and rotates that lower gear to the next screw, the timing will be off between the two shafts. For your machine, if your take up lever is up, and your timing mark is lined up on the shaft, you should have those two shafts timed. Again, that's not where you time your hook.

Regards, Eric

[gottaknow]

Once your upper and lower shafts are timed. You can check the height of your needle bar as follows:

Turn the needle bar all the way down then bring it up 3/32". If the point of your hook isn't close to the needle, now's the time to move it closer to the needle. Using the point of your hook as a reference, the hook point should be about 1/16" above the eye of the needle. I usually move both the needle bar and hook at the same time, but I do this everyday. Move your hook point to be centered on the needle, then adjust the needle bar to get the 1/16" above the eye. Once the needle bar is the correct height and your hook is close by, you can set the distance to the needle as I described earlier. After you get the hook and needle timed, you need to check your latch opener adjustment. It's the flat curve piece in the picture that contacts the bobbin basket. As your hook carries the needle thread around the hook, this latch opener pulls the little tab that fits into the throat plate open to allow the thread to slip through. You want it just enough to allow the thread to pass. If you open the gap too far, you'll bring the tab over and contact the opposite side or your throat plate. I check this setting with fabric as the machine is forming stitches.

Regards, Eric

[TSquared]

Eric,

Many thanks for your help. I am heading for the basement to make the adjustments. I will let you know how things turn out.

Tom

[TSquared]

Eric,

Thanks to you I am a step closer! I can make a stitch, not pretty but functional. The thread I want to use is Tenara Gore, with this I can not make a stich. The thread that came with the machine (a couple of bobbins full) is a poly thread. It is the same thickness as the Tenara but much limper. The Tenara thread just wants to make multiple wraps around the hook. The poly thread behaves as it should. The other issue is that I am back to having the needle bar hit the walking foot. I can not make one revolution. I will post photos tomorrow from my pc as this iPod will not post.

Getting closer,

Tom

[gottaknow]

It sounds like you need to move your needle bar and your feed dogs foward in order to clear the walking foot. The attached pics show the clamp screws and location of them to make the adjustment. I would start with the feed dog adjustment. Loosen the two clamp screws (16). You can then move your feed dogs foward. After tightening that up, loosen the clamp screw (12) for the needle bar and move it forward to match the feed dog needle hole. Insert a needle and center it in the hole in the feed dogs. This should give you the clearance you need. Hope it helps. After you can sew without interference, we can get it working with your thread. The first thing will be getting a really good stitch with the poly thread you have, then making adjustment for the other you want to use.

Regards, Eric

[TSquared]

Eric,

thanks for the thumbnails. I will check my machine when I get home from work tonight. In the meantime, I am attaching photos I took last night. The photo of the stitch shows top and bottom stitch. the other photos show the loose thread when the take up lever is down (walking foot not attached) and the needle bar hitting the walking foot.