dmar836 Report post Posted December 8, 2012 That took about 2 minutes and removed much of the slack. I still have play at the hook and it is stitching well except for the stop-start thing even without turning the material. I was going slowly and then doing some hand turning of the wheel and felt/heard a slip. Flipped it up and the top thread was under the hook body. It couldn't slip off to form the knot as it was actually around the bottom of the hook. I can watch it stitch fine into air when I go slowly and keep tension on the loose thread ends. Any other reasons why the hook would be allowing the top thread, while pulling it around, to drop the bottom half of the loop under the hook body? There appears to be a need for some additional resistance from the top thread so that it stays longer at the end of the hook point. The take up arm is still moving down when the hook has turned more than half a rotaion. Seams like the take up arm moving up slightly earlier would provide the needed tension and help set the stitch earlier. Could I readjust the needle bar height and appropriate hook timing to allow for this? My needle bar had no mark so I'm wondering if the PO or I have that way off. Or maybe I'm beginning to show my ignorance of these machines again? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gottaknow Report post Posted December 8, 2012 The purpose of the take up lever is to "give" the hook enough slack to travel around the hook, pick up the bobbin thread, and then set the stitch at the top of the stroke. If your top and bottom shaft timing is off just one tooth, you'll have slack in the thread at the wrong time and it will "flop" anywhere it wants. If you turn the machine by hand and keep the slack out of the thread and it make a good stitch, your shaft timing is still off. The amount of stroke of the take-up lever is engineered to match the amount of thread it gives the hook. If the take-up lever is not coordinated with the hook, you'll have issues as you describe. There is no way the take-up can give your hook more thread than it requires. The order of timing the machine again is as follows. Take-up lever all the way up. I place my finger under it and push up as I turn the handwheel, making sure it's all the way up. Remember, one tooth off makes a big difference. Then refer to the timing mark on the lower shaft. It has to be exactly lined up. At this point, make sure your hook is down all the way. If your hook is too high, it can throw off your timing, making your needle bar too low if your set the point of the hook where it needs to be in the scarf of the needle. Turn the needle bar all the way down and then measure 3/32" rise. At this position, the point of the hook should be centered at the needle and 1/16" above the top of the eye. If your needle bar height is off, raise or lower it until it's where it needs to be. Check your latch opener adjustment as I've described earlier (if you can find it..heh) and make darn sure the threads pulling up clean. Trust me Dave, when you get your machine timed and set, you'll eliminate the issues you're having. I hate to sound redundant, but if you were my apprentice, I'd un-adjust everthing ten times until you could do it in your sleep. By the time we get done, you'll likely be able too. Regards, Eric Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gottaknow Report post Posted December 8, 2012 Btw, have I mentioned when you first start out, you should be holding your tail thread out the back of the foot until you've formed a few stitches? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmar836 Report post Posted December 8, 2012 You've mentioned it for sure and you'd be a great mentor. It is something subtle going on. The shaft timing is good. The hook and needle bar I have adjusted numerous times. This eve I reset the gears one at a time to see if shifting the set screws on the groove in the shafts helped. I did move the hook gear once before to allow extra adjustment but never strayed from the groove. Tonight I jjust changed which set screw lined up with the groove(and swapped screws) so that was probably 5 teeth. The needle bar couldn't be adjust to get it timed right so back the way it was. Really it sews fine, makes good stitches, and responds to thread tension adjustments appropriately. So I think it is subtle. I may have inadvertently jumped teeth when I had the hook out so I might mess with that too. I know I can get it! Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmar836 Report post Posted December 8, 2012 I played with timing and retarding helps a bit. I watched this am as I hand turned the wheel and it is happening at about 1/4 turn of the hook after it has picked up the top threaad. When I let go of the wheel the entire mechanism - hook to handwheel backtracks a bit. That is allowing the top thread on the hook to become slack and the bottom of the loop to fall down under the hook body. The to of the loop on the hook is picked back up and continues as it should. This ends up with the top thread around and under the hook body. Now I have to find what is physically making the machine spring sightly into reverse when forward pressure is relieved. I'm getting there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmar836 Report post Posted December 9, 2012 Got it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gottaknow Report post Posted December 9, 2012 Got it! Nicely done Dave. Regards, Eric Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmar836 Report post Posted December 9, 2012 (edited) I wondered what could make it want to roll back a bit when I stopped sewing only when in certain places in the sewing cycle. I thought first the drive belt being old and stiff. Of course it dropped the loop around the hook even without the belt. I then thought it could be something spring loaded. Everything we have discussed was timed and working but the feed mech always sounded violent. You guessed it, the feed pressure was so great that when the pressor foot hit the material, it was so over clamping that the spring pressure was acting as a resistance to the following cycle - the ascending needle. The early hit, with its high spring pressure, gave enough resistance to "get past" that, unless I was constantly on it, would cause a slight relaxation backward. This was just at the stage where the point of the hook had reached maybe 90 degrees past catching the top thread when then backing off allowed the thread to partially fall - frequently getting under the hook. Now, with no excess back pressure, the hook stops cold and the top thread stays planted on the hook point regardless of location. I also centered the needle in the feed dog and spaced the needle bar from the pressor bar according to spec as well. I still have concerns with adjusting pressor foot height. Both are now lower than before. I adjusted the gib so that they are more equal. Is there just one overall height adjustment for both feet and then just the one gib screw to balance the pressor and walking feet heights relative to each other? All the help has been phenomenal! Dave Edited December 9, 2012 by dmar836 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TSquared Report post Posted December 9, 2012 Dave, I need to move my feed dog to the left to center the needle. I tried to loosen the two little screws without success as I could not get them loose. Is there a different setting? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmar836 Report post Posted December 9, 2012 Hmmm, Is the needle not centered? Maybe Erin knows differently but I didn't think the feed dog was adjustable side to side. I would look first for a bent needle as that's easiest. Looking underneath at the fork that runs the feed dog and the associated shaft above, I see no adjustments but could be wrong - perhaps the screw on the end of that shaft is an eccentrc. I suppose the needle bar or needle bar frame could be bent from a hard stoppage? How far to the side of the hole is the needle? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TSquared Report post Posted December 9, 2012 The needle looks centered front to back but it is rubbing the left side of of the hole. I did check for bent needle, not bent. Eric mentioned early on to make sure the needle was centered, I just can't figure out how. Probably so simple I am overlooking it.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmar836 Report post Posted December 9, 2012 I wish I could help. He will have to chime in on this one. So is the needle centered in the vibrating foot? After you mentioned the needle bare hitting it, I wonder if something got bent somewhere? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CowboyBob Report post Posted December 9, 2012 When we rebuild these we always check the needle for play as it seems that the hole elongates from side to side from the repeated tightening of the needle.It prrobably takes years for it to happen & will esp cause skip stitches the thicker you sew. Sooo how much play do you have when you loosen the screw that holds the needle? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gottaknow Report post Posted December 10, 2012 Dave, I need to move my feed dog to the left to center the needle. I tried to loosen the two little screws without success as I could not get them loose. Is there a different setting? Verify you've got a good needle, and you're going to have to get those two screws loose. There is plenty of adjustment there as the two screws sit on flat spots and have larger holes to allow side to side adjustment. Granted, those screws can be a bugger, especially since most people use really poor screwdrivers. I've been using Snap On screwdrivers which have really hard tips. When they wear, I get them replaced for free. In the mean time, I use an 1/8" wide insert bit with a slotted head. I then use a 1/4" ignition wrench to turn the insert bit which you can get straight up and down on the screws. I also have a set of screwdrivers I've ground at different angles to reach screws you can't get straight on. Old allen wrenches make really good offset screwdrivers as well when ground to shape. I replace my most common allen wrenches twice a year, so there's always plenty available. Before you attempt to loosen them, tap the dogs from side to side which will loosen the screws a bit so you can get started. Oh, and if you by chance need a needle bar, I've got tons of orginal Singer ones I'll never use. Be happy to mail you one. Regards, Eric Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TSquared Report post Posted December 10, 2012 Eric, I might have to take you up on your offer. I have a surface plate I can roll the needle bar on to see if it is bent. Is there anything special to removing the bar? If I do get one from you, I will pay for it and the shipping. Tom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gottaknow Report post Posted December 10, 2012 Eric, I might have to take you up on your offer. I have a surface plate I can roll the needle bar on to see if it is bent. Is there anything special to removing the bar? If I do get one from you, I will pay for it and the shipping. Tom The bar is easy to replace. I'd be sure it needs to be first. If your machine is timed right, you can use your hook point for a height reference. You can also measure the distance of the between the top of the throat plate and the point of the needle with the bar all the way up. There is a clamp on the needle bar that secures it in place. It's easy to see from the end of the machine. You can check for trueness, including the needle holder without removing it from the machine. Start with a new needle and measure the height from the throat plate. Turn the needle bar down until the tip is just about to go through the feed dog hole. Loosen the clamp and rotate the bar. Using the hole in the dog, you'll see if it's out of true. This is a quick way to check a needle bar. I've seen my share of bent ones over the years, so if you're having trouble and you're sure the machine is timed right, check the bar. You'll still need to get those feed dogs loose at some point. We have at least 50 211's in storage, so you can imagine the parts inventory I'll never use. No charge for a new bar and set screw, and I imagine the postage would be just a couple of bucks. If your needle bar was ok to start with, certainly nothing wrong with a new one, but you'll still need to resolve any remaining issues. To remove your needle bar, take out the needle set screw and thread guide in your bar still has one. Loosen the clamp and slide the bar out the top of the machine. There's a hole for it, though you may need to rotate the machine a bit to line it up. Regards, Eric Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TSquared Report post Posted December 11, 2012 Eric, Here is my latest update. Hopefully you are keeping notes for your upcoming self help DVD. The 111w155 needle bar does not come out the top as there is no access hole. In order to remove the needle bar, one must remove the connector between the walking foot and needle bar. Remove the L-shaped bracket that holds the walking foot/needle bar assembly (next to the presser foot release). Then remove the set screw at the top of the machine next to the walking foot pressure adjustment screw. With the set screw removed, the cone shaped shoulder bolt can be tapped out to the left allowing the complete assembly to move to the left. The needle bar can then be pulled out thru the bottom cavity next to the hook. I will try to get assembly photos for you when I put it back together. My needle bar was indeed bent, but not as much as I thought. With the lenght of the bar, even the slightest bend is magnified due to the lenght. I also got the screws out of the lower feed dog. One screw (the long one) is in good shape. The short one however is almost completely destroyed. My guess is some previous tech got in there with the wrong screwdriver and could not get a good bite on the head and just washed the grove out. I was lucky because with the needle bar assembly removed I was able to get my custom made screwdriver at 180 degrees to the head (I took a screw driver and modified the flat to match the washed out head). The lower dog does have some adjustment in the holes. Not much but enough to get the needle hole centered. The lower dog appears to have been modified. The rear part of the dogs teeth are about 80% ground away. Might be why I was not getting the feeding action I expected. Any chance I can get a needle bar, lower dog and the short screw from you? I was not able to get the thread guide off the needle bar because half of the screw head is missing. I can put it in the mill and remove the rest of the head, but I am sure that the screw is a special pitch like the rest of the screws on the machine. Tom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmar836 Report post Posted December 11, 2012 Wow Tom, your machine has had a tough life. It'll be great when you have given it a second chance! If you, too, have a mill, I'm sure you could fab your own thread guide though maybe a used bar might have one. Mine is working fine now but I do need to refine the pressor feet pressures and heights. I want to replace the plates and dog and get some welt feet so mine should be even better. Keep up the good work! Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gottaknow Report post Posted December 11, 2012 Eric, Here is my latest update. Hopefully you are keeping notes for your upcoming self help DVD. The 111w155 needle bar does not come out the top as there is no access hole. In order to remove the needle bar, one must remove the connector between the walking foot and needle bar. Remove the L-shaped bracket that holds the walking foot/needle bar assembly (next to the presser foot release). Then remove the set screw at the top of the machine next to the walking foot pressure adjustment screw. With the set screw removed, the cone shaped shoulder bolt can be tapped out to the left allowing the complete assembly to move to the left. The needle bar can then be pulled out thru the bottom cavity next to the hook. I will try to get assembly photos for you when I put it back together. My needle bar was indeed bent, but not as much as I thought. With the lenght of the bar, even the slightest bend is magnified due to the lenght. I also got the screws out of the lower feed dog. One screw (the long one) is in good shape. The short one however is almost completely destroyed. My guess is some previous tech got in there with the wrong screwdriver and could not get a good bite on the head and just washed the grove out. I was lucky because with the needle bar assembly removed I was able to get my custom made screwdriver at 180 degrees to the head (I took a screw driver and modified the flat to match the washed out head). The lower dog does have some adjustment in the holes. Not much but enough to get the needle hole centered. The lower dog appears to have been modified. The rear part of the dogs teeth are about 80% ground away. Might be why I was not getting the feeding action I expected. Any chance I can get a needle bar, lower dog and the short screw from you? I was not able to get the thread guide off the needle bar because half of the screw head is missing. I can put it in the mill and remove the rest of the head, but I am sure that the screw is a special pitch like the rest of the screws on the machine. Tom I'll get into my "I'll never use all of these" drawers and see whats there tommorow if I have time. I'm setting up a jeans line for the next few weeks, but I'll start digging around for you. I'm thinking the 211W151 comes out the top as they don't have a walking foot. I could have been thinking of a Singer 281, 300W, 269w, 230g, yikes..too many numbers in my head! Singer has their own thread standards for the majority of the screws. I have over the years found other mfgs will do in a pinch. Measure the length of your needle bar for me when you get a chance and I'll need a pic and demensions of your throat plate. A part number would do if it's still there. Here's a 211 I rebuilt for a local upholsterer and a Consew 327RB I overhauled to set headers on the flags we produce. It's a clone of the Singer 212 which is basicaly a 211 with another hook. Regards, Eric Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TSquared Report post Posted December 11, 2012 Nothing better than old glory. My flag pole is not big enough for the size flag in your photo. I sure with it was though. I drive past Summit Racing every morning and they have a 50 foot pole with a gigantic flag on it. The flag stands proud in a slight wind. My email address is fourpointwelder@yahoo.com. Send me your address and I will send you money for the parts and shipping. How exact do you need the needle bar measurement? I have 12" calipers at work, just a tape here at home. If not too exact, then the needle bar is about 6.250, not including the thread guide (maybe a bit longer). The throat plate is a 240147 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TSquared Report post Posted December 11, 2012 I don't know why I can't get photos in my replies from my I pad. here are the photos you asked for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TSquared Report post Posted December 12, 2012 Eric, I just caught your line "setting up a jeans line". I didn't think any clothes were made in the states anymore. What is the brand and do they sell size 46? If they do, I will find them locally somewhere. Tom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gottaknow Report post Posted December 12, 2012 Hey Tom, Yeah, we'll be making jeans again as soon as we finish the size run samples. In the past we've made Levi's and jeans for The Gap. Those are all imported now. The company we'll be contracting for is Bills Khakis. They are located in PA. I do know they go up to a 46. Ours will hit their warehouse in late winter I imagine. There are still companies willing to do business in the US, and customers willing to pay the higher price. We'll likely become there main jeans contractor. Could you check the part number on those feed dogs? I believe I have a set but want to verify. I also have a plate to match. I absolutely won't accept a dime for the parts. The dogs and plate are used but in great condition, honestly, they will never be used. I'll check for a needle bar tommorow, time permitting. What shape are your feed dog screws in? Regards, Eric Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TSquared Report post Posted December 12, 2012 The lower feed dog is 240147. I mistakenly called it a throat plate in my earlier post. The longer feed dog screw is "ok" the short one is scrap. The photo of the dog is in my earlier post. I am glad to here that some garment mfg is still here in the u.s. so much of our manufacturing base has moved overseas. Here in Akron we used to have hundreds of machine shops supporting the tire companies, Hoover, Rubbermaid to name a few. All gone now along with most of the machine shops. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmar836 Report post Posted December 12, 2012 I am surprised about that too. I'll have to look them up. Of course my plan is to replicate my most comfortable jeans I ever had - OD green painter jeans from Lucky. I destroyed them in a MC accident years ago but kept them, blood and all. I think I can make a pattern from them. Like so many imported goods, just try to replace a style of jeans a few years later. There is no consistency, just constantly changing styles. Maybe I should try the Radar O'reilly jeep trick and get Eric to ship me a nice machine - one piece at a time! Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
