Buying A New Machine, Would Love Your Expertise In Selecting...

[DFWLeather]

I have a mint Juki LU563 I have been using for watchbands and small leather books, and it works ok. The back-side of the stitching sometimes leaves traces of the loop and displays no angular pattern like the front does. The front is certainly more attractive than the back, and that's always disturbed me, to be honest. But then I'm pushing the machine to its limit.

Well, I began working with 9 oz leather the other day, after four years with the Juki. And the machine is struggling to get the job done neatly (as would be expected), and the loops on the back are much more noticeable so it's high time for a bigger machine. I am considering two based upon what I have seen on the site here.

The Artisan, 3200; and the Cowboy 4500.

Please let me know your thoughts if you have experience with the machines or some good advice. I would greatly appreciate your thoughts. Also, I am in Dallas/Fort Worth and am not aware of any dealers of either in the area so that may be an issue/or may not. I like to talk to people and work through problems.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Billy

Edited November 11, 2012 by DFWLeather

[Wizcrafts]

I have a walking foot machine that is similar to your Juki. These are really upholstery machines, not built to penetrate and properly sew hard or thick leather, or to use heavy thread. So, I got a Cowboy CB4500 to handle the heavy work. It sews like a champ. I can go down to #138 thread, or even #92, by using smaller needles. Normally, it is threaded with #277 on top and either #207 or #277 in the bobbin, depending on what is being sewn.

Cowboy machines are distributed and sold by Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines.

[TwinOaks]

I don't have either so I'm commenting based on reports from others -

Get all the machine you can. Both have similar sewing capabilities ( 3/4 to 7/8ths inch) and thread ranges. The primary physical difference is the amount of room under the arm. More is better.

There's also the issue of customer service. I suggest reading some of the recent threads about Artisan support, and comparing them to reports of Toledo Ind. Sew.

[Ken Nelson]

I don't have either so I'm commenting based on reports from others -

Get all the machine you can. Both have similar sewing capabilities ( 3/4 to 7/8ths inch) and thread ranges. The primary physical difference is the amount of room under the arm. More is better.

There's also the issue of customer service. I suggest reading some of the recent threads about Artisan support, and comparing them to reports of Toledo Ind. Sew.

Don't forget about Cobra Steve when considering a purchase either. Super great customer support. HTH

[TwinOaks]

I never could, but since the OP specifically mentioned the other two, I just stayed with them.

[DFWLeather]

I have read a lot about Steve, and from looking at the machine, it's not my first choice. However, I will consider it.

9oz would probably be the most I'd sew, but heck, you never know. I didn't think I'd still be using my Juki--a great machine I might add, just limited in its abilities; thin leather etc. Poor customer support will get you cut, for sure. I have not time for nonsense.

I will take some time to review the support comments etc. I wish there were a place down here that carried these machines--sure would be nice to see them etc.

[DFWLeather]

Perhaps the Artisan isn't for, sadly. I'll focus on the Cowboy and Cobra. I use a table machine now and wonder how changing to the arm will be. I'll certainly need a guide because I can't even walk straight.

[Techsew Ron]

I have read a lot about Steve, and from looking at the machine, it's not my first choice. However, I will consider it.

9oz would probably be the most I'd sew, but heck, you never know. I didn't think I'd still be using my Juki--a great machine I might add, just limited in its abilities; thin leather etc. Poor customer support will get you cut, for sure. I have not time for nonsense.

I will take some time to review the support comments etc. I wish there were a place down here that carried these machines--sure would be nice to see them etc.

If it's affordable, a 441 clone would be a good choice. If not, you do not necessarily need such a heavy machine for sewing 9oz leather. A flatbed or cylinder walking foot with a 3/8" sewing capacity is used by many people for general leather work such as belts, notebook covers, motorcycle gear, chaps and lots more. Some machines can use up to #210 thread with a #24 needle.

Best suggestion is calling around (there are 4 dealers advertising on this forum) and seeing who can offer you the best machine at the best price, the soonest.

Ron

[DFWLeather]

Great advice, and thank you.

I certainly don't want to over-buy, but then I thought the Juki would be my last machine and here I am again. Two 9 oz pieces is about as think as I can imagine going, but I want enough power to make sure I get a nice back-side finish as well.

I will call around tomorrow and get some insight as my knowledge on these machines is thin.

[Wizcrafts]

Perhaps the Artisan isn't for, sadly. I'll focus on the Cowboy and Cobra. I use a table machine now and wonder how changing to the arm will be. I'll certainly need a guide because I can't even walk straight.

My Cowboy CB4500 came with an add-on table attachment. It has four long bolts under it that go into matching holes in the pedestal table top, on the front and back side of the machine. It takes about two minutes to install or remove it. The table will support most flat work. I also got a drop-down roller edge guide that I find invaluable. It sews everything I put under the feet, from about 6 ounces to 3/4 inch.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Buying a machine is difficult because no one machine is perfect for everything. Buy the one that suits your budget and is doing what you need at about 2/3 of its capacity. If you can stretch the budget to a 441 then go for it.

[Massive]

I would look carefully at the details. I have a Techsew walking foot saddle type machine, and it marks my work less than a lot of smaller machines with walking feet. I think it is excellent even though really hefty. But i am looking to get a needle feed, compound feed machine. I would consider the Techsew 5100, but it has odd stuff like toothless blanket feet. At times I wonder whether they really get what a machine like that needs to be. You don't want to spend 3K for a machine, and find it has the wrong components somehow. Like this earlier Techsew with a walking foot, and leather feet and dogs that have serations. while the "blanket" accessory feet at set up for leather and are after market. Little details determine how well something will work for you. Personally I haven't got great service from Cobra, I seem to have problems getting answers when I am trying to buy stuff. They are fine, not saying it is anything bad at all, but I got faster responses from Cowboy and Techsew. So I think they are all good. I have got great support from Techsew. So I am ballancing the proximity of Techsew and their service against the probability that the Cobra is better set up for what I want and need.

[Trox]

I have a mint Juki LU563 I have been using for watchbands and small leather books, and it works ok. The back-side of the stitching sometimes leaves traces of the loop and displays no angular pattern like the front does. The front is certainly more attractive than the back, and that's always disturbed me, to be honest. But then I'm pushing the machine to its limit.

Well, I began working with 9 oz leather the other day, after four years with the Juki. And the machine is struggling to get the job done neatly (as would be expected), and the loops on the back are much more noticeable so it's high time for a bigger machine. I am considering two based upon what I have seen on the site here.

The Artisan, 3200; and the Cowboy 4500.

Please let me know your thoughts if you have experience with the machines or some good advice. I would greatly appreciate your thoughts. Also, I am in Dallas/Fort Worth and am not aware of any dealers of either in the area so that may be an issue/or may not. I like to talk to people and work through problems.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Billy

Hi Billy,

the answer is not always more dollars and a bigger machine, You can do a lot with what you have. Focus on a proper leather set up for your Juki.

I will not stand in the way for those who want to sell you a bigger machine. Nevertheless, two times 9 oz is what? 7 to 8 mm. in my part of the world. Your fine Juki LU 563 should be able to handle that thickness all day long.

First, smooth feet's , a leather needle and lower your feed dog in level with the needle plate ( or get a smooth one, you can grind down a original one or build up between the groves with epoxy glue to make it smooth). Be careful not to set the feed dog to low so it hits any other components.

I usually lower the feed dog on similar machines and let the machine feed with the top feed on leather work. With smooth feet's it is primarily the needle who does the feeding (like the set up on many famous brands of leather machines has). You must use more thread tension to get a tighter stitch, then it looks better on the backside too. Clean under bobbin spring or change it to get more lower thread tension. Clean top tension disks and if necessary change any worn out parts.

With these improvements I am sure you will have a better result.

Just my two cents tip in a money tight January month.

Happy New Year

Tor

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

My Cowboy CB4500 came with an add-on table attachment. It has four long bolts under it that go into matching holes in the pedestal table top, on the front and back side of the machine. It takes about two minutes to install or remove it. The table will support most flat work. I also got a drop-down roller edge guide that I find invaluable. It sews everything I put under the feet, from about 6 ounces to 3/4 inch.

Just to add, I just got home with my new CB4500. Bob Kovar and son had my machine set up and waiting for me, when I got there. I tried some test scraps that I had pre-glued and even had some sheep skin glued on and in some spots had the test piece go from thick to thin and back to thick like it might in some parts of a saddle. It performed flawlessly, obviously, as a result of the time spent on setup by the guys at Toledo Industrial Machine. Once I got it home, it took me about a 1/2 hr to get it downstairs in my basement, and set back up and running. Can't say enough about the professional attention that I recieved from Bob Kovar and Son. By the way, Wiz I made it a point to tell Bob you sent me.

Bob

[Trox]

Billy,

if you want to sew with heavy thread a 441 clone is your best choice.

Nobody sells those already set up for leather 441 machines like Cobra and Cowboy in my country. I had to buy all the leather attachments and set up my 441 clone for leather work myself, (needle plates, smooth feed dog and leather feet`s $$$) the same way as I described above.

It is not size and power who makes it a leather machine, it is the set up. I use it for thread sizes thicker than Tex 138, for sizes lower than that I use a Dürkopp Adler flatbed and a Pfaff cylinder bed of same ratings as your Juki.

One is set up for leather and the other for upholstery work.

All I am saying; if you are buying a new machine be sure it is for the right reason.

My choice would be a Cobra or a Cowboy 16 1/2 " arm, then you will not need to upgrade later because of lack of space to the right of the needle. They have greater second hand value too, and they are both good machines. You have to look at what you get for the dollar.

Good luck

Tor

Edited January 3, 2013 by Trox