Customer Guns And Ffl

[J Hayes]

I was on a gun engraving forum today and it seems the engraver needs an FFL to posses the customers firearm for commercial purposes, ie the engraving work. Does anybody know if that would apply the a holstermaker having a customers gun for the purpose of making them a holster?

here is the forum where I read this, hope its okay to post the outside link

http://www.engravers...ense-discussion

Jeremy

Edited December 1, 2012 by J Hayes

[TwinOaks]

I looked it up on the atf website once, and yes, if you have your customer's weapon(s) for 'x' amount of time...as a commercial entity...you need an FFL....similar to a gunsmith's FFL. I don't remember the particulars, but I think the gunsmith's ffl allows you to return the weapon to the original person that dropped it off. ***NOTE: This is my recollection, not the ATF ruling. Check their website/ask an agent to be sure.***

[joshk]

I actually wrote the ATF a couple years back on this very topic and asked them the following:

I own a gun holster manufacturing company and have had some inquiries into doing custom holsters for guns that I do not have models for. The customer would have to leave their handgun with me for 2-3 days, sometimes up to 2-3 weeks, for the holster to be made. I have told them that I may need a FFL to do this.

Would a FFL be required to perform this type of work? Thank you for your help.

this was the response I received:

This correspondence is in response to your inquiry emailed to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), on February 19, 2010. In your email, you requested to know if an FFL is required to occasionally obtain a firearm from a customer to build a custom holster for their firearm and returning that same firearm to them.

Based on the information you provided, as long as you are not do not engaged in the business of manufacturing or dealing firearms, no license would be required. Without an FFL you would be restricted to acquiring firearms from non-licensees who reside within your state.

You may want to obtain an FFL, if so visit http://www.atf.gov/f...ome-an-ffl.html or contact the Federal Firearms Licensing Center at (866) 662-2750 or NLC@atf.gov

You should also insure you are complying with state laws if they are more restrictive. A listing of many state and local firearms laws can be found at ATF.gov (see ATF P 5300.5 — State Laws and Published Ordinances – Firearms [2008 – 29th Edition]). If you have questions on state laws you should contact the appropriate Attorney General’s office (see http://www.naag.org/).

We trust this correspondence has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have any further questions, please feel free to contact your local ATF Industry Operations Office. A list of ATF Office telephone numbers can be found at http://www.atf.gov/contact/field.htm.

Regards,

Firearms Enforcement Branch, ATF jcd

Edited December 1, 2012 by joshk

[TwinOaks]

well, so much for my memory!

I still think that checking with your local office would be the best course, as they're the ones you'd be dealing with if there were any 'issues'.....and I've personally seen two agents have differing interpretations...which had to be cleared up by a supervisor.

[mlapaglia]

Based on the information you provided, as long as you are not do not engaged in the business of manufacturing or dealing firearms, no license would be required. Without an FFL you would be restricted to acquiring firearms from non-licensees who reside within your state.

I wonder about interstate shipping since he makes a point to say within your state.. Smith and Wesson does not use an FFL to send or receive your firearm for service so they dont need one but who know if anyone else does for interstate. I solved the problem by getting an FFL.

Michael

[chiefjason]

I wonder about interstate shipping since he makes a point to say within your state.. Smith and Wesson does not use an FFL to send or receive your firearm for service so they dont need one but who know if anyone else does for interstate. I solved the problem by getting an FFL.

Michael

I recently sent a Kahr back for a replacement barrel. I shipped directly to them via Fed Ex with their shipping label. They shipped directly back to me via Fed Ex. I think owner to manufacturer is handled differently. Honestly, I was a bit surprised. I also had a request to stipple a firearm a while back. I went to my LGS and it was going to cost shipping both ways and FFL transfer fees to me and back to the customer. That's about $90 give or take. It pretty much ended the deal. Interstate would have to go through an FFL and it would require the FFL transfer fees. Unless you have an FFL I guess.

To the original question, I imagine engraving is seen as gunsmithing. ie, working on the firearm instead of working with the firearm. And it might be important to know what the state law says about possession of a firearm if you are not the owner. I am legal to possess any firearm in NC that is legal to have, whether it's mine of I just have permission from the owner to have it. The only real stipulation here to possession is age. That might not be the case in all states. The FOID card comes to mind, IIRC in Illinois.

[J Hayes]

I'll call the ATF local office on Monday, but as someone stated the agent may not know. The FFL laws can be very confusing, I have sent handguns to S&W twice, both on their dime and the UPS driver picked it up at my work and it was delivered back to me at work. I would think making a holster would be fine since we are not altering the firearm in any way just possessing it, like when a buddy lends you one for a match or hunting trip or whatever. One more hoop I guess.

Jeremy

[Lobo]

1. Interstate transfers of firearms within the US are covered under the Gun Control Act of 1968. Basically, a FFL is required in order to receive a firearm in interstate commerce, and a firearm may only be shipped to a FFL holder in another state. FFL licenses come in several categories such as "manufacturer", "dealer", "pawnbroker", "gunsmithing" (essentially a manufacturing license), "curio & relic", "ammunition manufacturer", etc; with not all licenses being "equal" for all purposes.

2. Firearms manufacturers and licensed gunsmiths may receive a firearm directly from the owner for repair or other work, then return it to the same person via common carrier. Manufacturers and gunsmiths are license holders. Holster making does not constitute gunsmithing or customization of the firearm.

3. Generally speaking, handguns must be shipped via common carrier by 'next day air' service, which is quite expensive (averaging around $70 to $80 each way, plus insurance). FFL holders routinely charge fees for facilitating transfers between non-FFL holders, adding to the overall costs.

4. Unless otherwise prohibited by state or local laws, a firearms owner may ship his firearm to another person within his state of residence, and have it returned to him within that state. NOTES: (a) US Postal Service regulations generally prohibit mailing firearms (although FFL holders may ship to FFL holders via Priority Mail), and ( state and local laws may provide additional restrictions on private transfers such as this, regardless of federal law (such as waiting periods, state registration or licensing, etc).

5. Unless you hold a valid Federal Firearms License you may not lawfully receive a firearm in interstate commerce for any reason unless it passes to you through a FFL holder in your state of residence and all background checks, state, and local laws are observed completely. NOTE: The frame of the weapon (generally the part with the serial number) constitutes a "firearm", so even a disassembled or partial weapon may be considered as a "firearm" under the law.

6. Receiving someone else's property for use in a business transaction, with return of the property anticipated at the conclusion of that transaction, is considered a "bailment". You, as the "bailee" are completely responsible for the safety, security, and preservation of that property from the moment it comes into your possession until you have returned it (safely, completely, and undamaged) to the "bailor". Your "homeowners" insurance policy will not cover your business pursuits. Your "renters" insurance policy will not cover your business pursuits. Your "business" insurance policy may cover property of others in your custody or control (subject to a deductible amount that is probably pretty high), but will probably not cover that property while in transit with USPS, UPS, Fed Ex, etc. The point to remember is that you are accepting responsibility for the full value of your customer's property! Your customer may sign a "release", "waiver", "indemnification", "hold harmess agreement" or other such paperwork prior to sending his property to you, but such prior releases are not generally recognized and provide little or no protection against claims of negligence or fraud.

7. There are folks out there who will send you a damaged firearm, a collectible weapon with parts missing, or any other combination you might dream up, then make claims against you FAR EXCEEDING THE VALUE OF ANY HOLSTER ORDER THEY MAY HAVE PLACED. If this should happen I would suggest that you (a) have good insurance coverage, ( be ready to pay for legal representation, © document every shipment you receive, with a witness and good photography of the unopened parcel, any damage to the parcel, and every detail of the shipment contents (make sure that your witness doesn't mind spending some time with claims investigators and taking time off to go to court with you if necessary).

In other words, boys and girls, there is a lot to recommend against engaging in this type of business! Run afoul of GCA '68 and you could spend a few years making little rocks out of big rocks at a federal penitentiary. Have an unscrupulous person send you his "pristine" Remington 1875 or first generation Colt Single Action Army (minus a few parts that haven't been available since Teddy Roosevelt was president) and you will be spending a lot of time with lawyers and insurance claims people instead of pounding hides in your shop.

I carry a good business insurance policy, but the deductible is about the same as a top-shelf handgun costs. I dot all the "i's" and cross all the "t's", but I don't "tug on Superman's cape, I don't spit into the wind, I don't mess with the old Lone Ranger" and I don't play with rattlesnakes.

Knowledge may be acquired by anyone with the desire to learn. Wisdom comes only to those willing to learn from the experiences of others. Here is a genuine $0.02 worth.

[TwinOaks]

Thank you, Ray, there's some things there that are quite eye opening.