Louis Vuitton Leather

[humperdingle]

I suppose the problem is not the customising or 'repurposing' in itself, but rather, the intention to sell on the refinished article.

Then again... If I was lucky enough to be able to afford an Aston Martin, decided to fit a few other bits and pieces which were non standard... And then sold it... Is that an issue?

[madisonO]

Thailand is a good choice if you got the money to transport but if not, I think it would be hard to get one.

[Feraud]

I suppose the problem is not the customising or 'repurposing' in itself, but rather, the intention to sell on the refinished article.

That is generally the sentiment with regards to trademark issues.

I participate in the movie prop hobby and this frequently comes up. Making a "one off" is not an issue as is taking intellectually owned property and attempting to sell.

If you paint Mickey Mouse on a child's shirt the Disney company will likely not bother you about it. However, if you start painting Mickey Mouse shirts and selling them... that's a different story.

[cmantz]

I see horse tack made with LV material...I assume it is fake. So it is available for purchase somewhere.

[jimmy eng]

The main LV logo products (the monogram and damier check) are a waterproofed canvas. They do have a few leather lines such as the Epi line, which has tight ridges/slubs on the surface.

You most likely would get it in Thailand but it's very hard to procure a roll of the material. When I went to a few south east Asian countries on holidays with my family, they'd be a few badly made fakes at the markets in Thailand (ones with the wrong symbol on the monogram etc) but I think it was in Malaysia/ Laos where we got driven literally to a place in the middle of nowhere, it was a barren landscape, and they had a warehouse full of higher quality fakes. I wasn't paying attention to how we got there or why unfortunately. It was a bit frightening, you could feel the nervous and secrective tension in the air.

[JojoSinclair]

This is my first post on here and I don't want to upset anyone, but found this thread interesting enough to reply. I don't yet know much about leather work but I know a small amount about law. I spent a year of my science degree in law school (an optional route) and while I am by no means an expert, or even slightly professionally competent, I'm experienced enough to have an educated guess at this.

I would see this as cut and dry.......

As you would be using their brand elements and looking to gain either directly, or indirectly, commercially (directly: monetarily. indirectly: enhancement of your brand or services through association with LV), they would have a problem with it. I feel the main issue that LV would have, though, is that you would be in control of their brand elements, not them. Guarding of brand elements, logos, even certain shades of colour is taken very seriously by even medium sized bodies, never mind an international brand of the stature of LV.

Also by using their brand elements they would argue (as one poster has already said) that you are implying LV endorses or condones your product, professional standards and brand image, which they don't.

I would have thought they would 100% have the legal angle to pursue you, but the idea that they would would be remote. It's probably 1 in a million that they would see your products and then even if they did, I doubt they would pursue you compared to their other counterfeit problems originating in Asia. However, having said that LV may also have a zero tolerance on brand violation due to the mass counterfeiting of their products and image............... I think they probably would. I think as the very least they would issue a cease and desist notice on you.

I suppose since you are very unlikely to come under their suspicion it all comes down to whether you are happy to do it from an ethical point of view. And you also must consider if it will damage your reputation. It would be quite obvious to most that you aren't an affiliate of LV and therefore are producing something counterfeit. I would have thought you wouldn't want yourself associated with a non-professional practice? Just weigh up the pro's and cons and go with it! Good luck either way.

[khan]

Talked to a guy who runs a bag and baggage shop. He's an expert on industrial bags. He told me the Luis Vuitton fakes are in fact better than the real ones, lol.

please talk to another expert he is no expert for me louis vuitton had start as a malletier (trunk) since 1854 and i had also made quite a few trunk and use some brass accessory by the same supply without the lv stamp on it i will never accept a client to ask me to do work with the lv canvas if he want lv work he should go direct to lv i have seen some bad lv copy and very high quality copy but if you really know about lv quality you will see the different so let do our work and leave lv in peace

[Jazznow]

Hi Khan,

I didn't wanted to offend anybody. It was not intended to talk bad about lv, just wanted to say, that there are some lv fakes that are of a good quality (of course not all fakes...). If I read my post again, I can see that this message may not have arrived at the reader because I can't express myself in English as good as in my native language. So if I have offended you or anybody else, I am very sorry.

Best regards,

Jonathan

[khan]

Hi Khan,

I didn't wanted to offend anybody. It was not intended to talk bad about lv, just wanted to say, that there are some lv fakes that are of a good quality (of course not all fakes...). If I read my post again, I can see that this message may not have arrived at the reader because I can't express myself in English as good as in my native language. So if I have offended you or anybody else, I am very sorry.

Best regards,

Jonathan

hi jonathan i do not feel offended i just want to point out that there are so many people don't know about lv quality Louis Vuitton start working at the age of 14 to become what they are now i start my leather work 40 years ago and very proud of my work and also have a lot respect for other peole work if you do quality work you don't do fake stuff i myself don't like the monogram canvas from lv but that is their trade mark and their success reason why there is so much copy but the thing is a copy it will alway be copy my english is not very good too i have the same problem to express myself like you please you don't have to be sorry i think if we are here on this forum it to exchange our point of view best regards khan

[glockanator]

I realize this is pretty old thread but I just noticed that Savoy Leather is doing a LV holster. I am not going to post any of his pictures but you can find them on instagram and Facebook. Just thought some of you might be interested in it.

[CyLee]

Personally, I would contact LV licensing department and tell them you have some old LV handbags that you wish to repurpose for your wife and some of her friends. You will not market them as LV products, but instead market them as products consisted of repurposed LV items.

I believe this would fall into fair use, but if you got caught, you'd likely get a cease and desist order before being sued.

That being said, I am a filmmaker also, and I get mighty ticked when I see someone steal my images, sound bites, or ideas and claim them as their own. However, I am usually more than appreciative to discover someone kindly asked if they could use something and provided me with credit for my original part of the work. Sometimes I say no because of future plans.

Check what they have patented. If, and I am sure they trademarked their name, using it without permission is just wrong and liable. They probably don't have a trademark on holsters but still their name.

If you are asking someone to make fake LV trademarks on leather, you are asking for long jail time and big time fines. US Customs will ensure that as will other agencies despite what LV does or doesn't do.

[Zen Diesel]

I am not a lawyer, but i would like to throw my .02 in the bucket on this issue. I do not think it is a violation of copyright or trademark to take LV leather and make it into whatever you want. First off if it is the genuine article, LV has already made their money off of it. Once the item becomes mine I can do with it as I please. I am not leasing a bag from LV, I am buying it. Because a name or trademark is stamped all over something does not give the creator of that trademark license to tell people how to use it.

People repurpose material all the time to make new items. So long as you are not representing the item as something that is made by the original manufacturer and you are not making counterfeits of something and trying to pass it off as the genuine article then I cannot see how LV or anyone else has a say in what you do with your personal property or the personal property of a paying client.

Apple tried to pull a similar move with iPhones / iPads and other IOS devices. They claimed that jailbreaking / opening the software in such a way that you can make changes to the your device that are not approved by Apple was a violation of their copyright. The courts held otherwise. In short stating that you cannot tell someone what they can do with something that they own.

Could you imagine Ford for coming after a car owner because they painted their car a different color than the factory approved colors or converted the car from a hardtop to a roadster?

I hold issue with anyone telling me how I can use a certain thing that I purchased from them. If I want to cut a LV duffle in half roll the edges and turn it into a flower pot and sell it then I should be able to maintain that right because it is now a new object made from materials that I owned. I am not infringing on the copyright or design and I certainly should not need a license for that or permission. You can't market the trademark of an unlicensed product but you can certainly use whatever you have to make whatever you want.

So you cannot say 'LV brand holster'. Because you don't have a license from LV, but you could say holster made with repurposed LV leather.

I can still respect another person's work but decided that I would like to change it to suite my needs without the worry of being sued into oblivion. So I think this falls squarely in the fair use category. AFAIK LV doesn't make holsters or hold patents on certain designs. So keeping this in mind and with all due respect to LV I don't think there is anything they can do to stop you from recycling or reusing materials. I don't think there is any law that says manufacturers of goods must only use virgin materials.

But I could be wrong. In the grand scheme of things, is LV going to come after a small time leatherworker? Probably not, but should you manage to blip on their radar you may get a cease and desist letter from their legal department. However if you aren't breaking any laws it may be likely too expensive for them to pursue a full blown lawsuit especially for a limited run of itmes.

Ultimately I would much rather see good old used material turned into something new and used than thrown away or left to rot because it has fallen out of fashion.

[DavidL]

From what I read it is legal to do custom work of something that is copyrighted as long as it is a custom piece, meaning it was recommended by the customer. person to person. I guess it is because you aren't using the copyrighted image or logo to implying that your company is affiliated with that company and is merely a custom piece. But if you mass produce something with copy righted images or logos than it is illegal.

[cem]

Umm no David where did you get this information please speak to an actual ip attorney about how copyright works.

[DavidL]

You might be right, however like you said I would probably see an ip attorney if I was to do it for real . What I read was from a custom shoe painter thats pretty well known in the custom sneaker world, doing collaborations with big name brands. I believe I read through his website or it may have been in one of his youtube videos where he talks about it. He has painted celebrities, copyrighted video game characters and character from movie franchises on his shoes. All for custom order and most were copyrighted imagery.

He said he wasn't able to sell them premade because it wouldn't be allowed, but custom ordering was allowed because the copyrighted imagery is not the selling point, it is his artwork they are paying for.

[chiefjason]

From what I read it is legal to do custom work of something that is copyrighted as long as it is a custom piece, meaning it was recommended by the customer. person to person. I guess it is because you aren't using the copyrighted image or logo to implying that your company is affiliated with that company and is merely a custom piece. But if you mass produce something with copy righted images or logos than it is illegal.

The simplest way I understand this issue is that I can make myself a holster with the Harley Davidson logo on it, for example. But I can't make you one and sell it to you. I have a friend in the sewing machine business. The folks that have the rights to Barney come very close to suing and bankrupting one of their clients for copyright infringement. That lady was selling stuff she made at a local flea market. Not exactly the big time. Some of these companies can, and will pursue you for it. She was warned not to do it and she nearly lost everything ignoring that.

Artwork does fall into a bit of a grey area. If the guy is kind of famous for it, they may be ignoring him and taking it as free marketing. But that's an expensive game to play if you are wrong.

[Zen Diesel]

The simplest way I understand this issue is that I can make myself a holster with the Harley Davidson logo on it, for example. But I can't make you one and sell it to you. I have a friend in the sewing machine business. The folks that have the rights to Barney come very close to suing and bankrupting one of their clients for copyright infringement. That lady was selling stuff she made at a local flea market. Not exactly the big time. Some of these companies can, and will pursue you for it. She was warned not to do it and she nearly lost everything ignoring that.

Artwork does fall into a bit of a grey area. If the guy is kind of famous for it, they may be ignoring him and taking it as free marketing. But that's an expensive game to play if you are wrong.

Not to be argumentative, but I have reached out to one of my lawyer friends who deals in copyright cases. I am truly curious now.

As far as reproducing / counterfeiting Barney products. Well serves her right, when you blatantly go out and steals someone's design and don't have an agreement and don't pay licensing. Then you have to be willing to pay the price. In my mind the difference here is not that you are producing unlicensed copies of copyright / trademarked works. But rather you are taking the elements of one thing and making them into something new, as long as you are not doing some sort of elaborate counterfeit scheme I don't think those laws should apply.

Finally I would like to end with I think that if you are willing to pay a craftsperson to ply their trade and make something custom that, the very act of the thing would classify it as art. A limited run of something vs. a sweatshop in a developing nation pumping out low or high quality counterfeits are not the same in my mind and should not be treated the same way.

[chiefjason]

The vagaries of this make the arguments/discussions endless. I bet you could ask 10 lawyers and get 11 different answers. Copyright law is vague and messy in the details. These arguments last a while even when it's about art, and I mean true artwork as opposed to crafts or trades.

My best plan is when in doubt, stay away.

[Zen Diesel]

Not to be argumentative, but I have reached out to one of my lawyer friends who deals in copyright cases. I am truly curious now.

As far as reproducing / counterfeiting Barney products. Well serves her right, when you blatantly go out and steals someone's design and don't have an agreement and don't pay licensing. Then you have to be willing to pay the price. In my mind the difference here is not that you are producing unlicensed copies of copyright / trademarked works. But rather you are taking the elements of one thing and making them into something new, as long as you are not doing some sort of elaborate counterfeit scheme I don't think those laws should apply.

Finally I would like to end with I think that if you are willing to pay a craftsperson to ply their trade and make something custom that, the very act of the thing would classify it as art. A limited run of something vs. a sweatshop in a developing nation pumping out low or high quality counterfeits are not the same in my mind and should not be treated the same way.

Okay I looked into this further. I did consult my friend who works in copyright law. So here is his opinion. First I am going to give a quick disclaimer. I am not a lawyer and I am not pretending to be one. Any information given is an opinion and not legal advice. If you decide to take on a project like this and you want peace of mind hire a lawyer. Personally if something comes up like this for me, this is generally what I will be doing.

2 questions.

Q: Can i take a LV bag that I own, turn it into something else and sell it?

A: You will likely get sued if this is your business model.

Q: If a customer owns the LV bag and wants me to modify it into something else would this be problematic?

A: Generally once a thing is purchased the trademark holder loses any right to control the good thereafter.

So the short answer is that so long as you are modifying a good that a customer owns and not manufacturing goods looking for a buyer then you are within the bounds of the law. The legal technicality is to have your customer purchase the genuine article (to avoid counterfeiting and because fake goods are cruddy practice) and to charge for your time and experience and not those materials. LV cannot tell you what you can or cannot do with property you own (so long as you do not sell it after you make it) and they cannot tell your customer what they can have you as the leathercrafter to do.

[CustomDoug]

I was just discussing this with a friend, not really knowing what you guys were discussing in this thread.. but what's your (collective) impressions of how the following company does what it does [see link]:

http://www.hermesbirkinbagsgo.com/

Doug

[DavidL]

That website is just selling fake handbags, that say made in france and also hermes. Perhaps if it had their company name and not taken some of the patented birkin design it would be okay. I think the difference is like zen said they have to buy a real bag from hermes then your service is to customize the bag and create your art work whether its painting or reconstructing. All of custom shoe reconstructers require you to first buy a nike shoe then send it in and they offer a service to customize it. Similar to a person buying a car and customizing the seats, doors and paint by an auto shop.

[Zen Diesel]

I was just discussing this with a friend, not really knowing what you guys were discussing in this thread.. but what's your (collective) impressions of how the following company does what it does [see link]:

http://www.hermesbirkinbagsgo.com/

Doug

This is a company that makes counterfeit bags. They are honest about it at least. More honest than the purchasers of these bags are. The website is hosted in the US but the owner is in China.

[CustomDoug]

This is a company that makes counterfeit bags. They are honest about it at least. More honest than the purchasers of these bags are. The website is hosted in the US but the owner is in China.

Your counterfeit is their replica.

I don't see how it's possible - they run a website that is blatant and in your face with stealing the identity of this company. Unless, of course Hermes has a hand in it... not saying they do, but at the same time it wouldn't be a bad business decision with each bag being $500 or so. That kind of thing's been done before. Then again maybe Hermes only allows high quality fakes (doesn't seem likely though)? Or perhaps international laws regarding copy rights muddies the waters too much for Hermes to stop them? This company excepts Visa and Master Card so those accounts could be seized if Hermes wanted (via court order, lawsuit).. they also claim to be members of the BBB and are VeriSign Trusted, etc..

To say that the purchasers are more dishonest is debatable IMHO, especially if the above were true.

Doug C

Edited October 7, 2014 by CustomDoug

[Ed in Tx]

As far as any copyright or patent infringement goes you can copy any designer item down to the stitch counts as long as you don't put that makers insignia or emblem on the item. Making an exact copy isn't an issue as long as you aren't trying to pass it off as genuine.

[DavidL]

samsung had a phone that had a similar curve design to the iPhone 4 or 5 and apple sued samsung for a million and won . Which is ridiculous. Samsung sent them trucks filled with pennies...

I think that that its impossible to stop fakes from being sold. A new store by the same person will come up in a few days after the site is taken down. Any one who buys a fake for 300 instead of the real for 5k is more into fashion than luxury, so hermes probably doesnt care.