Order Of Operations For Leather Straps (Dyes, Conditioners, Finishes, Paint, Edges Etc.)

[Haleyf]

I want to know the order of operation in leather strap work.

I am trying to start a business selling custom dog collars. I want them to be quality and I seem to run into some kind of problem with every step I take.

Here is the method I have adapted to so far: (I will note some of the other problems to see if I can get some extra advice.)

1. Cut and skive the leather with super skiver- (can't really find the trick to making this an easy task)

2. Sand the edges and the raw side of leather (for comfort) with a sanding wheel on a drill press

3. Bevel the edges

4.. Punch holes, wet and stamp

5.. Dye with the color of choice - Fiebings oil based Cordovan dye, Fiebings acrylic antique medium brown stain or a zelikovits water based pigment pink dye (pink seems to have streaks where the color doesn't take no matter how many coats I add and rubs off easily)

6. Let dry for an hour or so then color the letters with sharpie for the stained collars, metallic markers or paint markers for the dyed collars(paint markers are difficult to make even and not globby and metalic markers seem to wear off a little)

7. Spray with leather sheen

8. Let dry for an hour or so then burnish the edges with glycerin and saddle soap or Quik Slick on a nylon slicker attached to the drill press. (I am not sure how long this is supposed to take but it seems like forever and I still never get glass smooth edges) - ordered a wooden burnisher made for a drill press so hopefully it will help. My other problem is that sometimes the edges seem to crack in certain spots mostly around the buckle within just a few days. I use quality herman oak leather.

9. touch up the edges with the same dye

10. condition with lexol conditioner.

11. add hardware

Ok... so where I get mixed reviews is at what time to apply the finishes and the conditioner. I am so confused that I kind of change it up every time I make one so I don't know if the order of operation is contributing to any of my problems or not. OR if the order of operations needs to change depending on what base of dye and marker I am using.

I have been told to condition right after you stamp and before you dye and let it sit over night.

I have been told you always put any oils conditioners or saddle soap very last because other products wont penetrate.

I have also been told it's super important to use the leather sheen finish before you finish the edges and within two hours of dying

But if a water resistant finish is applied won't it seal the leather from absorbing any other products - like conditioners, edge burnishing products and touch up dye?? I feel like if I understood the chemistry behind all of these products I would have a rule of thumb

So confused. Any advice would be excellent!

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[Cyberthrasher]

First thing on my list is "I have been told you always put any oils conditioners or saddle soap very last because other products wont penetrate."

You may be confused about the nature of oils/conditioners. These products penetrate the leather themselves and do not offer any real protection. But, any of your waxy conditioners can stop proper coverage of any additional products. The oils on the other hand, when left to sit, shouldn't be an issue. What are you using for a conditioner? You can't beat good old pure neatsfoot oil for this step. It's a tried and true product that should serve you well.

How smooth are you sanding your edges prior to burnishing? Before edge slicking, your edge should be pretty dang smooth and already formed to the proper shape. i usually hit mine with a 150 grit to start forming the round edge I like (after using an edge beveler) and then follow it up with 400 grit wet/dry. From there, a little glycerin soap and my dremel burnisher, dye the edge (don't worry about it penetrating like the rest of your product), rub it down with beeswax and a piece of denim/canvas to a nice glassy shine. Remember, the edge burnishing products are only meant to really lubricate things and make the fibers lay down, not be absorbed by the leather.

usually, I actually apply my finish to the complete project and my edges as the very last step. I was looking at Fiebings Leather Sheen for another member who was considering it and, after reading the description on the can, I pretty much came to the conclusion that this is not a permanent finish. It's more of a temporary finish/conditioner to be used on the end product as part of a continuous maintenance routine. The key part that led me to that was "Shines and conditions leather with a flexible wax finish". To me that sounds more like the kind of thing you'd tell your customer to use after you've already applied a more permanent finish over your dye (like saddle-lac, resolene, clear-lac, etc...)

I'm actually at the day job now, so I'm going to defer to others to fill in the gaps that I've left out.

[Haleyf]

cybertrasher - You bring me to a ton of other questions I have. SUPER NEWBIE ALERT! Iv'e been using lexol conditioner. I guess because I read somewhere that some type of conditioner is important. It does seem to make the leather more pliable to hammer in the hardware. Does neatsfoot oil count as a conditioner? I use the saddle soap to finish the edges which I was also told to apply after the finish...

"your edge should be pretty dang smooth and already formed to the proper shape.I sand my edges until they are soft. Only takes about a minute to a minute and a half but they remain the same shape. Are you saying that I should bevel the edges first and then it will make them round? And I guess the term smooth confuses me because when you sand leather it makes it soft and fluffy. When I think smooth I think slick..

I also don't know what a 50 grit 400 grit wet/dry means. I will go ahead and live up the stereotype that I am a girl and don't know S*&% about tools. I just have this sanding wheel my dad bought me on his drill press that goes up and down in speeds marked with a plus or minus sign. lol

Do you dye the edges at all with the rest of your product before burnishing or just leave them bare and do it after burnishing? Then.. how do I apply the beeswax? I did that once over a whole collar by just rubbing it on and then trying to buff it off, but it left residue. do you melt it?

Also I use leather sheen because of it's water resistant qualities for a product that is made to last outdoors. I watched this youtube video about finishes to come to this conclusion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyTg_hfpNUM&noredirect=1

What would you consider a permanent finish? And should I use it with the conditioner and the leather sheen or is that unnecessary?

See SUPER NEWBIE ALERT!!

[Haleyf]

Also.. Forgot to mention that in order to make this worth my time I need to finish a 20 inch strap in about an hour but make it as good a quality as possible.. How long does it take you all to do a strap edge?

[jk215]

- Neatsfoot oil is a very widely used conditioner. It will make the leather more supple and mallable.

- You will want to bevel your edge and then sand. It will start to take on a rounded appearance. Once it is decently smooth you will dampen the edge with a water/saddle soap combination. Make sure its not sopping wet, just enough to aid in the burnishing process. Nothing goes on after you finish the edge. So your process would be :

1. Bevel and sand

2. Burnish with water/saddle soap combo.

3. Dye the edge

4. Final burnish

5. Apply finish to the edge

[immiketoo]

Haley, it sounds like you need to spend some time working the leather to learn what works for you. There are NO hard fast rules in leather, minus a few obvious ones. You should check our Bobby Park's (Hidepounder) tutorial on edge finishing. Here's the rub (Pun intended) To create the edge you desire in the time frame you desire, you will need to either eliminate steps in your process, automate steps in your process or make it so efficient that you stay profitable. I don't know where you came up with 20 minutes, but the only way to gain speed and efficiency is to practice. A lot.

A tip to cut time considerably in the process is to buy pre-dyed leather, possibly bridle or latigo leather. Both of these have oils and waxes in them that make them weather resistant. Of course, they are more expensive, but as a business, you need to calculate your time into the equation. Two hours of waiting for dye to dry is time that could be spent elsewhere in the process.

Good luck, and welcome to LW.net

Mike

Oh yeah. Skiving sucks. Again, its a time-in-grade thing. Also, the better quality leather you use, the better off you will be when it comes to skiving.

[Cyberthrasher]

Ah, thanks to the others for filling in some of it.

With their comments, I'm going to jump straight to the grits. The number on the sand paper relates to how course it is. The lower the number, the more material it removes. A 150 grit sandpaper will remove enough material to shape the edge of your leather (after edge beveling) and start the smoothing process. The 400 grit wet/dry paper (it can be used wet without falling apart) will really smooth things out without removing a whole loot of material. You can probably get both of these at your local hardware store, but you may have to go to an auto store for the 400 grit wet/dry. You have to bevel the edge though in order to start getting that round shape. It knocks off the corners of the edge and leaves a flat spot in the middle. This is where the sand paper comes in to start shaping things. I should add that I just use a piece of the sandpaper curled up in my fingers to match the curve of the edge when I'm doing this. It's what works for me.

With practice, there's not reason you can't get all of these steps in an hour. I do all my edge work on 50" guitar straps in about an hour to an hour and a half, including dyeing. But, if that hour includes the entire time to make the collar you're going to have to find ways of streamlining stuff.

For the beeswax, I have a block of it that I rub down the edge so it makes a groove in the block and then rub the edge briskly with my denim/canvas to basically burnish the wax into the low spots and crevices of the leather. If you have a buildup of wax, you'll probably have to use 2 cloths. One to remove the excess and another to do the final rubbing. Hidepounder goes over a lot of this in his tutorial in the "how do I do that" section of the forum, and then from there it's just a lot of experimentation to figure out what works best for you. I'm always adjusting my procedure or trying new things as I hear about them.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Cyberthrasher

[Haleyf]

Mike - Thank you! I have looked at bob parks method and that's why I use the quik slik or the saddle soap. It does work way better than the other things I have tried. Can't quite figure out how to attach the canvas to a mechanical burnisher though. Also I said 20 inch piece of leather in around an hour(without counting dry times). Not 20 minutes. I have quite a bit of experience working with my mom on leather straps. We never finished the edges or used anything but antique stains though and just sprayed at the end with a acrylic wood finish. Here is what she does www.saintbernardkeg.com This is a project I am launching to make some money to stay at home with my new baby and it is quite a different process to make a product that will remain comfortable, fasionable and durable around a dog's neck all the time here is a rough draft of a website I made for what I do (www.cowtowncollars.com - HONEST opinions for my first collars are welcome! Good advise about the latigo leather! I am going to look into it. Thanks!

Cyberthrasher - Great info! I feel much better about sand paper now! That explains a lot. I will check out the forum post. BTW I saw your facebook and I really like your work! Before my little one came I used to do band and venue management and got my degree in music management. I will try to through some hooks out for you!

[Cyberthrasher]

Cyberthrasher - Great info! I feel much better about sand paper now! That explains a lot. I will check out the forum post. BTW I saw your facebook and I really like your work! Before my little one came I used to do band and venue management and got my degree in music management. I will try to through some hooks out for you!

I saw that you're my newest like!!

Bob attaches his canvas to a motorized system, but I'd say until you get a larger setup and more experience, the dremel burnisher would be a much better alternative for you. I use my canvas by hand rubbing briskly. If I ever get enough space and resources, I'd probably definitely have a motorized unit the size of his as well . Right now I'm working out of a corner of my basement, so space is tight.

Oh yeah, take a look at the prototype amp handle I have on there, as well as the latest tooled black belt, and look at the edges on them. Those were both done with the procedure I laid out above. The amp handle isn't a finished product, but it will give you an good idea of the edges smoothness and shape. The belt is finished though with dye and Resolene (front back and all around since the customer wears a lot of khakis for work).

Edited February 8, 2013 by Cyberthrasher

[Cyberthrasher]

Oops! Just realized that amp handle prototype isn't on there. I posted it to my blues group as a teaser picture

It's all scrap bin stuff, so nothing to be too proud of in this state, but you can kind of see the shape and smoothness of the edges. I have some closeup pictures somewhere at home.

[needles]

hi Hayley

just looked at your web....i really like it, looks good to me..the collars look good and it seems to explain everything. sorry though I'm a beginner and know much less than you......seeing what you've done so far, I'd say you'll be fine......

al

[Cyberthrasher]

overall the collars you're doing aren't bad. But, with some refinement to the edging, they'll double their value. The pictures on your page are a little pixelated, but I saw the same thing between your site and your mom's. The main thing that really popped out at me is what I have circled in blue. The edge beveling you're attempting now is really sporadic and uneven. This happens when your edge beveler isn't held at the exact same angle throughout the length of the cut. Practice, and make sure that edge beveler is stropped too. Also, it helps to have your edges still a little moist at this point. The part I circled in red, you already know about. Having that natural portion stick out (which, by the way, is the part you'll round off with the sandpaper) really brings down the perceived quality. These collars look really good and well constructed, so I don't want to see these details ruin a customers perception of your work .

Now, this picture also brings us back to your burnishing problems. I think a big part of what you're experiencing is that your edge slicker isn't able to make full contact to the leather because it's got that natural ridge in the center. Your edge slicker has a rounded channel for the leather. With that ridge, neither the sides or the top are able to make contact with the surface of the slicker. Once you get it sanded nice and round and smooth, then slicked with either your edge slicker or dremel burnisher, you should have a nice round and slick edge that will only take dye on that portion. I didn't point any of this out in the picture, but you have sections where you were trying to dye the edge and it bled down into the main collar. A well burnished edge won't let it bleed past the edge because the fibers are so compacted. Again, this really helps with the finished look and the perceived quality. Point of comparison for value, I have a friend who has asked me for a custom collar for his English Bulldog at 1.75" x 22". I told him $80. When he went and compared he came back and said that that's about how much plain ones were without the custom tooled name on it.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Cyberthrasher

[billymac814]

You should have no problems finishing this up in an hour once you get the hang of it. Here is my method of making a belt if using Veg tan, I do sell a lot of English bridle belts too and they are easier as there's less steps.

1. Cut and dye strap, let dry.

2 Skive and punch buckle end, then mark the length and cut punch billet end.

3. Bevel the edges with an edge beveler.

4. Burnish the edges. Ill copy a link to how I do them. Certain projects get more detail in the sanding area, others get slightly less but both have very good results.

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=45386&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1

5. Apply light cost of Neatsfoot oil, you could substitute with Lexol.

6. Apply my finish, I use 50/50 water and resolene applied with a foam brush. Ill apply it to the backside first. Normally the backside of Wickett and Craig leather is super smooth anyway but if it were very fibrous I'd slick it down with a bone folder using the same finish or gum trag. The finish gets applied to front back and edges.

7. Install buckle.

[billymac814]

Now here's the steps for my English bridle belts. I sell these in my store and they have become a good money maker. These are a pretty standard belt, if someone wants something tooled or stamped I use the previous method but most people that come to my shop want a belt and they want it today and price is often a concern to some extent.

1. Call Weavers and order pre cut, pre punched and edged English bridle belt blanks and premade keepers.

2. Take measurement, punch holes and end. Finish up the end where cut off.

3. Install buckle and I'm done.

Total time spent 5 minutes.

When I was making them all myself I was lucky to be able to have one belt on my rack for people to look at, I usually have an 2-3 month wait list for my holsters and other custom items so I couldn't spend time making a bunch of belts that aren't sold yet. Most people would walk out as they didn't want to wait a few weeks for a belt. My sales increased dramatically when I started buying these. I now carry 3 colors in 3 widths and people are very happy with them as they are far better than anything else you can find in a store.

I mainly sell these locally in my store and I sell my more expensive ones online more. My profit margins are way better on these ones though as I have about 10.00 in each and sell them for 35.00 so I make 25.00 for 5 minutes of labor which equates to 300/hr, my double layer gun belts that I make sell for 90.00 but it takes me about an hour so I'm at about 80/ hr. when I was cutting my own single layer English bridle belts Id have between 30-40 minutes in each and sell them for 40.00 so I'm in the 60/hr range.

[Haleyf]

cyberthrasher - nice work. I will use that of an example for what my edges SHOULD look like. As for my sample pics... I think i photoshoped that one a little and that is a part of what your seeing. Also that was my very first ever finished edge. I am going to take more time on beveling from now on. Good stuff thanks! I am not only learning leathercraft but also html and web design lol. That is a super rough draft of what I want but hey I am just getting started. Big Otep fan btw.

needles - THANKYOU!!

billymac - Wow great edge in less than a minute. I will definitely be refering back to this. I ordered a wooden burnisher for my drill press with 6 different grooves that seems to be taking forever to arrive. I can see more now the legistics behind the corners vs the center of leather edges. I am going to look into buying pre-dyed leather as soon as I expand into concho only collars. Because I am such a novice and am having to get all my mistakes out of the way and learn I am averaging like -$2 per hour at the moment. lol. But I am a pretty smart cookie and have faith that I will figure this out

Thanks everyone! I am going to practice a little more with all your advice and report back!

[Cyberthrasher]

cyberthrasher - nice work. I will use that of an example for what my edges SHOULD look like. As for my sample pics... I think i photoshoped that one a little and that is a part of what your seeing. Also that was my very first ever finished edge. I am going to take more time on beveling from now on. Good stuff thanks! I am not only learning leathercraft but also html and web design lol. That is a super rough draft of what I want but hey I am just getting started. Big Otep fan btw.

Just keep at it and you'll be flying in no time. I always tell people to just be honest with themselves as they're looking at their work. I'm far from perfect, but I know exactly what I need to work on to get better. Part of that is the fact that I'm extremely critical of everything I do. So, just step back and look at your work while asking yourself "what part of this isn't perfect?".

I used to be a bigger Otep fan than I am now, but my wife and 12 year old daughter are borderline obsessive