interweaves

[rawhide1]

Hello all

I'm working on a pair of roping reins for my daughter and the long pineapple knot I'm using to cover the turnbacks will have a o/u 3 or 4 interweave when I'm done. Well i've started on the o/u 3 interweave. When I started I followed the one to left but when I get to the top of the knot if I go under two when I continue down and make my turn under four I wind up at my standing end. So when I make my turn at the top should I go under four or more. So I was wondering if somebody could tell me how many to turn back under on a o/u three and a o/u four interweave when ya get to the bottom and top of the knot. I'm having a huge brain fart and can't remember the sequence.

Thanks in advance for any help'

Mike

[Shelly]

I would suggest you post a few pix of the knot, and where you are running into a problem... if the foundation and first pass (O/U two) is correct, you should be following the string on the left when going up, and the string to the working end's right when going down, and once the pattern develops, you will notice that it will build from an o/u two pattern to a o/u 3, and so on, each time you finish an additional IW. Also notice as you increase this knot from o/u 2, that you will be building up from the base, meaning that it will give the impression that the base strings stack each progressive IW on the last from the bottom up, but at the top, the IW always goes all the way to the top foundation strands, going under a cross and splitting a pair, (essentially, under 3).

When you start the third IW, I will usually start it in a different place from the standing end, so that I don't end up with a bulge in that spot from additional strands starting/ending in the same place. You can go under 4 to start, at the base of the knot, being sure that it will be passing at the base of the last row. still following the left string up, and the right string to the bottom after making the turn at the top...

Pix really help me to see where a problem is, I'm a pretty 'visual' learner myself, so easiest for me to teach that way, too...do you have any of Gail Hought's books?? Her books are some of the 'must have' books that I refer anyone that asks me where they can get started learning the art of braiding...easier to follow her than Bruce Grant's Encyclopedia, and I taught myself how to braid in the mid '70's from his books...cutting my own roo and rawhide happened pretty quick as well, as the lace available in the Tandy stores left a lot to be desired in the end result for me...same as strapwork - started making my own headstalls when I couldn't find 'off the rack' headstalls made well enough to suit me...

Edited August 23, 2008 by Shelly

[rawhide1]

Shelly

I'm going to attempt to post some pictures. I took a black marker to the string I'm working with hopefully making it easier to follow.

[rawhide1]

Here's two more

I can't figure out why I'm coming out at my starting point. I don't know if ya can see it but in one of the eight pictures after I went over three I had to go under four. And I don't think that is right.

Mike

Edited August 23, 2008 by rawhide1

[Shelly]

This looks like a six bight knot, but can't be totally sure by the pix - I can see that you aren't going all the way to the bottom on the IW, and that's fine, as it should work the same, like you are doing it - the problem I am seeing is that when you are going up from the base, you are fine, following the left strand to the top, then under the cross, and splitting any pair there, which would have you basically going under 3...then, you have the mistake - you are coming down toward the base of the knot you are following the left string again - going down toward the base you should be following the path of the string to the right of your working end, and splitting any pairs that you've made on the previous passes going up - you will be splitting pairs you are making as you go down when you are going up again, and so on, around until you work your way back to the beginning of the IW...I might suggest a different colored string here, as it makes it easier to see when you are trying to 'see' the pattern...looks like it will make a nice button when it's done!

[Shelly]

If this is the third IW, it should be building up to an O/U three as you build and split pairs - I think if you back that string out, all the way to the beginning, start over with the entire string colored, to see it better, and go up following the string on it's left, and down following the string on it's right - you will find that it will work better - you will go under 4 at the bottom, to go up, but do be sure that you are coming out at that juncture next to the string you are following up (working end to it's right, both in the same spot, following this string up with it on the left of the working string - as you will split that pair when you come down to it following the string on the working end's right on the way down...make sense??)

[rawhide1]

Shelly

Thank You for your replies and help. I'll have to try your suggestions this evening when I get time. And I think I will use a black roo string for this interweave so I can track the pattern better as you stated. It is a six bight knot. Once again Thank You

Mike

[Alan Bell]

Hey Mike, if you look at your second pic there is a pair that should have been split. Also, It is hard to tell but it looks like a 6 bight knot with an X=4 so basically you should have 24 rows of lines going up counting the "v" or at least the up leg of the "v" from bottom to top. When you go to the first interweave you are making an O2 U2 pattern and the ends are U3. The next level of interweave should be O3 U3 with the ends being U4 regardless of wether you are going all the way from top to bottom. The section you are "building" should be built in the same manner with the same formula of adding 1 to the pattern and 1 to the cross for each level of interweave. Make sure you are splitting pairs when you come to them. Seeing as this does not appear to be the first time you've come down the rows then you've made an error somewhere between the first and second pass. Make sure you are going up and down the same number so if you go O U O going up you should go O U O going down (this is leaving out the crosses at each end) and not O U O U O or some variation that adds one more row to the equation. From what I can tell you are basically one pass to the right of where you should be and you shoul be going down the row 3 strings to the right shich would put you coming to the pair that the start makes at the top of the pair. It also looks like you are too lose at the top and your interweaves are too far down the sides of the knot to fill in the gap at the top. This happens to me a lot. I REPEAT "A LOT" so don't feel too bad. just keep trying to feed those interweaves up higher realizing that you can braid the knot a little loose if you know that your next 3 interweaves are going to tighten everything up once they go on.

Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell

[rawhide1]

Alan, Shelly

I hate to keep bothering y'all. Maybe I just need to be hit in the head with a hammer. When I start my interweave I follow the one to the left I go up o3u3o3u3o3u3o3u2 making the turn. Then down following the one to the right o3u3o3u3o4u3o3u4making the turn. Going back up following the one to the left o3u3etc... Now when I get to the top I should be going o3u3 making the turn and splitting a pair since this is my second pass. But I don't the pair from my first pass is on the other side. I've studied this wreck for hrs and the only answer I can come up with is on my first pass when I get to the top is to go under six which sounds absurd. I'm starting to feel dumber than a box of rocks. Maybe if someone had a picture they could post that would help. Once again THANKS for any help y'all can offer.

Mike

[Shelly]

Alan may have to field this one - I'm trying to get a couple saddles finished, so won't have time to do an example until later in the week...if you're patient, I can braid the knot for you, and use different colors to show you in pix...would do it similar to what you are trying to get done...no time available for now...both saddles are floral, and got to go!

[rawhide1]

Shelly

That would be great if ya could do that when ya get the time. It would be nice to see. But there's no hurry on my part. I think I figured another way of skinning this cat. Hopefully I can post pics. tomorrow (I guess it's today) if I get it licked. Once again Thanks

Mike

[Alan Bell]

I'm in the middle of a set of romal reins and a bosal so I don't have time to do it either but if you think about it the answer is easy. I told you it looks like you are basically one row over from where you need to be. You are coming out at the bottom of the start and you should be at the top of the start so..... at the top when you do the first cross if you went under 4 that would move you over to the next row so you will end up at the top of the start. Actually I think on the first one it is an under 3 just like the previous pass and then the next time is under 4 with the 4th string being the string from the 1st pass of THIS interweave! Again sorry I don't have time to braid one that size up too show you but I think you can follow the logic. You are always building things UP and there is never a pass where things are less than before because you have added a string. They are at least the same as the previous pass or greater. So your U2 cross can not be right.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[KAW]

rawhide1

It looks like to me that your first interweave came out right (non colored string) and why your second one is not is you are trying to make it one pass shorter than the first interweave and on a 6 bight knot it doesn,t come out right, you end up at your standing end every 2 rounds. If you make 1 more ring of colored interweave like you made your first or 1 less it will come out correct, it might tighten it up some but that is what it looks like to me, if you go 1 shorter you may have to make 1 more interweave to fill the gap, hope this helps

KAW

[Alan Bell]

rawhide1

It looks like to me that your first interweave came out right (non colored string) and why your second one is not is you are trying to make it one pass shorter than the first interweave and on a 6 bight knot it doesn,t come out right, you end up at your standing end every 2 rounds. If you make 1 more ring of colored interweave like you made your first or 1 less it will come out correct, it might tighten it up some but that is what it looks like to me, if you go 1 shorter you may have to make 1 more interweave to fill the gap, hope this helps

KAW

I thought this might also be the case but am not able to check it out. There are so many different knots and ways of doing them and such that it is hard to keep them all straight in your head. I was trying to tie one that is one less turn in the foundation than your and I have tied it countless times but I started over twice before I finally looked it up in a book to see where I was messing up! Plus, it is easier to see what is going on when you are the one that just tied the knot other than looking at the pic of a knot from someone else. At any rate I think you will get it figured out and having been through this will help you understand HOW knots are built up from one level to the next.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[rawhide1]

KAW, Alan

Thank You for your help. KAW I figured it had something to do with the bights and # of interweaves because as you say I keep coming out at my starting end every second pass. But I just don't know enough about the structure of knots so thank you for the explaination. So I went a differnt route before I read these last post. I was able to do the interweavs in sets of two and it all worked out. Why and how it worked I have know idea but everything came out where it was supposed to I think. Here are a couple of pictures of it. Once again everyone Thank You.

Mike

[Shelly]

Looks good - however you finally were able to get it done! Looks like you moved some of the foundation strands and made room for the colored ones...this knot is basically no different than a heel knot on a bosal - a six bight rather than 8 or more, but the principles of adding bights when building a foundation knot and then filling in for gaps is the same - I will usually fill in with filler colors, such as you've done here, to fill in final areas...A quick look at the heel knots on these two pix - you will be able to see the additions of the different IW's - the red roo is only two rows, and the black is three, as well as an additional darker rawhide IW...in your case, you have two less bights than these knots in the pix, and an additional turn around the knot when you laid the foundation. On these heel knots, there is only one cross on the back (at the top), and one on the front, (at the bottom, crossing over the standing end), to start.

Referring back to a book is the main reason I asked if you might have Hought's books - she is a good teacher, and her books make great reference material should you ever get 'stuck' like this...and, they are easier to follow than any of the others out there...I taught myself out of Grant's Encyclopedia, and I never refer anyone to that book unless they just want the material in their library - there are mistakes in it! Gail has been braiding longer than I have, and had the added benefit of being able to have early guidance from Ortega - and he wasn't very open to teaching anyone anything!

I'll try to get a knot done such as yours soon - I need to braid up a set of romal reins for my show horse - planning a 12 plait rein with a 16 plait romal, in roo, and the knots in rawhide with contrasting colors in roo...will do a floral popper as well...I have a lot of core material that I acquired from a close personal friend of Luis Ortega (he got a box of stuff from Rose after Luis passed away), all of it was cut and labeled by Rose, I assume, as to which pieces would be best for reins, romals, etc...will use some of that for my project...

[rawhide1]

Shelly

Thanks for the help. I wound up cutting that knot off I didn't like how it looked due to handling it so much. My wife thought I was crazy after all the hrs I had in it. Plus it was the second knot I've cut off after spending a lot of time on. I do have one of Mrs. Hought books and it is easy to follow. I would like to get them all but they are kinda of out of my reach right now. Which one would ya recomend for building interweaves. I have the one on rommels. BTW very nice web site.

Mike

[Shelly]

Shelly

Thanks for the help. I wound up cutting that knot off I didn't like how it looked due to handling it so much. My wife thought I was crazy after all the hrs I had in it. Plus it was the second knot I've cut off after spending a lot of time on. I do have one of Mrs. Hought books and it is easy to follow. I would like to get them all but they are kinda of out of my reach right now. Which one would ya recomend for building interweaves. I have the one on rommels. BTW very nice web site.

Mike

Thanks for the compliments - it's a work in progress...I've also cut up plenty of stuff in the past, and still do today...

As for Gail's books, I just recommend all of them...but, if you have to pick and choose, then get the more advanced books first, and the others later - I don't actually use them myself, but I like to keep a library of the things I find relevant to my work, then I can show anyone that is interested in finding out how to get started what I think would be helpful to them - if they can look thru these, it helps them to decide which to order for themselves first....

Shelly

[rgerbitz]

Hey Mike,

I am currently having the same problem on tool handle I am practicing on. If I understand KAW, you are saying that the O3,U3 passes must run with O2,U2 and that it cannot start more in the middle of the knot on a 6 bight knot?

[KAW]

rgerbitz, you can but it wil come back to your standing end every 2 rounds and you would have to use 3 strings to finish it if you follow your over 2 under 2 interweave you will use just the one sometimes it can get alittle tight depending on your core size, that is why it is nice to know alot of different interweaves so you can combine them on certain knots and core sizes, it can be aful frustrating at times, for me it just took making a hell of alot of knots.

KAW

Edited August 26, 2008 by KAW

[rgerbitz]

Thank you KAW. I solved the problem this time by squeezing it on up to an 8 bight knot. I know it cheating. What do you mean by "knowing different interweaves" is there more than one way to do it?

Rob

[KAW]

Rgerbitz, what I meant is you can use different combinations of rings of interweaves to fill in different size and shapes of cores by knowing how many rings will work on certain

bight knots.

[crow]

i find no point making a new topic about my question,

i`d like to know how do you braid just one single zic-zac in the middle of the pineapple knot.

I have o/u 3 for now and now i`d want to add different color in the middle, what is the sequence top and bottom?

thanks in advance

crow

[rawhide1]

crow

I'm not sure I can help. As I haven't got the interweaves whupped yet. But maybe if ya can show a picture and tell how many bights the knot has and where ya want the interweave. I can see what ya got and so can everyone else.

Mike