Do I Have To Worry?

[PcCowboy]

A guy called me looking for a saddlemaker to put together a couple of saddles for him that he had started on and didn't know how to finish. Since I needed the money and had nothing to do I agreed. We agreed upon $1000 since it was only labor and he would be sending me everything I needed. It was a lot more work than I expected. First of all appearently he didn't know the first thing about saddlemaking and I had to tear it all down and start from scratch. ( I won't go into what a pain he was calling me 3-4 times a day telling me what he wanted and how to do it over and over again) I finished the first saddle and knew I had a problem when he sent me a check for $1000 + the shipping cause he didn't pay the sales tax. He claimed he didn't have to pay the sales tax cause he lives in New Mexico. That's all well and good, but he had me ship the saddle to a Texas Address which under law means I have to collect the sales tax. Then he tells me by email that because of the high cost of shipping back and forth that he will only be paying me $600 for the 2nd saddle. No way, and I told him so. I packed up everything and sent it back to him. Today I recieved an email from him saying this:

"The cost of shipping you the saddle and you just UPS it back with over $100.00 in parts missing (He claims he shipped me a box of hardware that I never recieved) now I have to pay shipping again to another saddle builder and time delay on the build is costing me money. (Why is this costing him money, I thought these saddles was for his personal use) Balance due is money due on the cost of just shipping a saddle back unfinished. The agreement was to build the saddle not cost me $3000.00 in lost rev I figure $999.00 is a reasonable amount to pay. I'm also charging 8% per month on unpaid accounts."

WHAT!!! He want me to pay him for not building him a saddle, come on now.

I pretty sure he doesn't have a leg to stand on, am I'm right?

[benlilly1]

I don't envy you any! Sounds like this is the customer from you know what! Do you have the invoices from the transactions? I would not pay anything until you get a lawyer.

[Johanna]

It's really important to have things in writing, but I don't think you need to lose sleep over this clown. If he takes you to small claims court he's going to sound ridiculous. You were smart to box it up and send it back- some customers and jobs are not worth keeping.

[PcCowboy]

It's really important to have things in writing, but I don't think you need to lose sleep over this clown. If he takes you to small claims court he's going to sound ridiculous. You were smart to box it up and send it back- some customers and jobs are not worth keeping.

I have kept every email that he has sent me with our conversations, even the one where he told me that the box must have got lost in the mail and not to worry about it and where he told me to pack everything up and send it back to him.

[camano ridge]

If you have doccumentation that shows he agreed to $1000.00 per saddle, then you have a email sying he is not going to pay the $1000.00 for the second saddle you should be in good shape. The shipping is his problem and should not have been a concern of yours. You also have no agreement with him to pay him anything and there fore no liability for his so called intrest. Thats just my opinion not a legal opinion. I f htis is costing him money my guess is he was not building these saddles for his own use it sounds like he attempted to build the saddles for someone else and couldn't so he sub contracted out to you. When he says he is charging 8% on unpaid accounts makes it sound even more like he has a business. I think he screwed up and now he's trying to get money out of you to make up for it.

[WinterBear]

..wait, whut? He first wanted you to do a lot of labor for $400 less, and when you refused and sent the work back, he now wants you to pay $999 + 8%? Do I have this right--1) He broke the contract by refusing to pay less than what was agreed on in the correspondence; 2) He's asking for monetary recompense on a product he can't or won't prove that he shipped (the hardware); 3) He's asking for monetary damages of one-third more of what he was willing to pay you, AND he has the idiotic saddle back too?...

Honestly, I think he's crooked. He broke the agreement by refusing to pay the agreed upon amount, and you fulfilled your part by returning the goods to him. He tried to rip you off, and he's still trying. Keep an eye on him so he doesn't attempt to defame your business though. If he starts going around flapping his lips or posting online that you ripped him off for $999 dollars +8%, you might have to deal with the fallout of the slander and libel. Might be time to look around for a lawyer, just in case you need one to protect you and your business from this clown.

[PcCowboy]

.Might be time to look around for a lawyer, just in case you need one to protect you and your business from this clown.

Already have one. A customer of mine.

[Slow Learner]

It would seem that he would in breach of contract and you should be the on confronting him. You had a contract to do the work then he changed the agreement and broke the contract. I am no legal person just how I see it.

[PcCowboy]

Here is a small portion of what I had to go thru. This is his emails, not counting the 3-4 times a day he called me and kept running my minutes out on my cell phone.

Hello Dallas, sending a mockup of saddle 2 with one piece jockeys and connecting to the ground seat with connecting padded seat (inlay) about 4 oz or 6 oz brown leather cover would be great. I've designed this saddle with the riggin built onto the bottom of the jockey positioned in the correct spot, place the jocky in place and do not cut off or grind down the ground seat , slight trim and open space for the sturrup leathers. place sturrup leathers and add jocky with connected D's some how. The pictures u sent look great but the ground seat looks very rough especially around the edges, and there is no leather covering the sides under the thiegh area. These are holes that the top seat leather is going to be in valley's in a few years. Maybe on saddle 2 we can design a better supported saddle. The lace on the swells and the bottom skirt looks great on saddle 1, keep up the great work and good luck in new features and design.

Hi Dallas, this picture shows the tens and lack of ground seat support in the cantle and in front of the cantle, the total seat should of had another large piece of leather covering all the ground seat all the way to the swells, The part I have been talking about adding more leather and building up is the part you have been trimming off to make the seat narrow for some people who don't know nothing about building a ground seat. That seat needs to be full and extended 4 or 5 inches on both sides (under the thiegh area of the rider past the tree bars about 3" or so and about 4" forward of the conchos or bottom of the seat cantle toward the area where the cut out is for the saddle sturrup straps. On the final seat you can see low places in the seat at the bottom of the cantle just above where the conchos set .

those lakes or holes are the ones I have been talking about in other old fashioned ways of building saddles, I have been trying to correct. Another way to explain this is the ground seat work I had was okay but need another larger wider piece of leather over the intire seat before the final seat was installed. You did not call me for over a week to approve the ground seat and I tried to call you for over a week and all I got was a text message on Saturday morning stating you are not taking any calls today. But poor communication causes the flaws in the build to be very hard to correct. The only way to build up that ground seat now is to take the top back off and fill up the holes. Please try to get a phone with some minutes on it so you can get the work approved before moving forward. I use cricket and its unlimited minutes and unlimited text and only 35.99 per month.

I sent some sturrups and some little leather straps with buckles to hold the bottom of the sturrup leathers and some different conchos with texas stars for the hold buttons to keep the blevens buckles from falling off the strap . The rope strap and buckle . The sturrups should adjust with the sturrups attached to the saddle, should be about 37" from the bottom of the sturrup to the top middle of the saddle with a wrap around type measure for correct length to set the blevens buckles. There should be some latigo to strip 2 1/2 in width and about 36'' long for the front D's for tie down. Do you furnish the front cinch and breast collar. Try to ship some of the extra gear with the saddle, and please don't let anything ride on top of the seat, I don't want it to get scratched. The oiled large skirts I sent and headstalls and I suppose you did not use the back of the cantle piece I cut out for that saddle. Send the green leather and any roll of lighter leather you are not going to use and ship it also. It might take two boxes to get everything you don't need for saddle#2 What is the leather count and sheep liner and conchos and latago and soforth for saddle # 2. What else do you or might need on that one. I live in New Mexico, I payed tax on purchase of materal already and don't think I should pay tax twice on the same products and what tax are you talking about, I don't sign tax forms.

What is your idea on the horn, and the chrome top is pretty rough and should be removed. I have designed a horn cap that does not require sewing around the edge. its like a large U shaped latigo piece with 1'' or so straps 2 place the circle on top of the horn and the apron or outer U falls down around the horn and wrap the straps like a roping wrap and then nail the ends under the hand hole like a horn wrap and you got a horn top and horn wrap in one piece and needs no sewing. So I recon the saddle can be shipped and I can finish the riggin and cinch, I just thought I sent a back cinch leather or buckles connected to a latigo strap about 50" long to be sewed to a 3" strap of leather and 45 degree the corners and connect the straps by sewing them together for a back cinch. Any way just get ur done and ship to

GREAT JOB MR DALLAS, THANK YOU FOR THOSE LONG HOURS AND THE DETAIL IS AMAZING, THAT ACTUALLY LOOKS LIKE A RANCH SADDLE. THE RIGGIN LOOKS STRONG AND SO DOES THE HORN , PROBABLY BE ABLE TO ROPE A BULL AND BE OKAY.

Dallas, the shipping was way too much, lone star overnight is a Texas only carrier and rates are a lot less, I'm sure the local grocery store would have had a free box that would work or check with the post office and see if they can ship any lower in price. I keep telling you to stay in contact on these processes, you might not like talking on the phone but its costing me a lot of extra money, because I can find a cheaper way to ship and the saddle is still tied up in Albiqjurqe, NM will suppose to get here monday. That shipment should have been around $60.00 to ship by LONE STAR OVERNIGHT or the local post office.

I am sending photo's of saddles I like and as you can see the riggin can be done with D"s and not have to purchase C ring with screws to skirt type riggin is not very strong. I prefer to get the regular D's and just drop them down a couple more inches and move them back to about 15/16th position on this cutter saddle. There is a box of hardware conchos and screws and copper stud with washers , somewhere for that second saddle. The D's there were 4 of them. I sent 2 sides of skirting and 1 latigo piece and I thought I sent some saddle strings and back cinch out of latigo with buckles. I do think a box got lost at the post office or lone star did not deliver the box.

I need some photos of what you have , I think the ground seat I built is perfect, just put your metal strainer on top and add some small pieces of leather at the front by the swell under the strainer to keep the strainer level with the ground seat I started. The problem with the first saddle was scraping back down to the rawhide bars and tens were showing in the photo's , that saddle should of had a thick solid piece of leather cover the complete ground seat I started and then scarf or smooth the edges around a little. I don't care what the other cowboys are talking about narrow seat , I want the ground seat to be full and front to back and round all the way down to the bottom blending into the riggin so the top seat leather will lay smooth from on top of the ground seat down and across the top of the riggin , the sturrup leathers will support the front of the seat top leather in the front area. The portion in front of the sturrup leathers are being scarfed down to close to the height of the rawhide on the bars leaving the sturrup leathers finishing way taller, this can be remedy by making the riggin about 2" wider in the top in front and taking it up the inside of the swells and the tens in front would screw down of top giving the approximate same height as the sturrup leathers when completed giving a nice level space for the finished seat liner to set.

I need photos to make the next saddle and what the next steps are before the changes are made.

This flat plate design might work, but needs more leather up to the ground seat and in front of the sturrup leathers up to the hand holes mounted under the tens at the front. The skirting should be built out of 10oz leather on top and bottom build up also and then add the bark-tan sheep skin to reduce that weight factor 63 lbs is too heavy. The front cantle should be covered in high quality leather not the belley leather also in 10 oz leather to reduce the weight factor. The top seat leather should be cut out of the best looking piece of 14 oz leather and should have a nice full rounded ground seat fastened with screws to the front swells. Screws allow quick access to referbuise the saddle and allow easy refinish when re=attaching the leather after any needed adjustment or repair in the future.

I think a good design for the cutter saddle would be the show saddle picture I sent. It has D's and regular rigging, showing a lace with shinning corners and padded seat. Nice horn cap. Can you possibly build the ranch cutter to look similar to this show saddle except with the full jockeys and just add saddle strings and I have conchos with cut outs ordered. I also have some 3" and 3 1/2'' D rings ordered. Let me know what you want to do on this cutter tree, the horn cap needs completely redone and not put the chrome piece back on because it is rough and don't need on the saddle horn. I want a smooth finished easy grip for bronc turning. I sent a picture the other day of a 1890 8 button style saddle that will look simalar to this cutter along the sides when finished. maybe you can figure it out and make something work. You were talking about the hand hole opening in the saddle; if you use those wood screws in the front swells to hold the ground seat and place a quality piece of leather all the way down and under the tens cut outs or have spacers for sturrup leathers, will support the strength of the tree and then add a full nice size piece of leather on top of the tens and then add the support leather from the D;s and blend into the ground seat leaving room for the sturrup action and sturrup fenders should ride on top of the rigging and not be hanging on anything.

Dallas, the saddle arrived today along with several parts and headstall. I have to have a better price on the next saddle, there are too much shipping cost involved in shipping leather and tree's and hardware and then shipping it all back is pretty much costing too much per saddle. If you want to build another saddle the price must be 600.00 for the ranch cutter.

Thanks, I have already had several compliments on the saddle and they want to know who built it and they have heard of lewis saddle shop so when you get that shop cleaned up and get back to real saddle tree's you can build me another saddle.

Okay, you have missed a whole shipment of hardware on saddle 2. All the stuff you are talking about was for saddle 1. The post office lost a box somewhere. Anyway cannot get you on the phone, do you want to build another saddle like the first one. I have a tree and all the hardware and sheep skin in one box and 3 sides of leather in another box all buffed and sanded herman oaks leather and all the latigo already cut and sized for the saddle strings and wrap and back cinch ready to be set on with 2'' roller buckles and conchos sending 8 conchos will only ship UPS and no post office.

Don't worry about a piece of leather it can be used there for something. I have a brand new tree ready to build and all the hardware ready to shipI'm not in a hurry if you want to build another saddle. I have to get it built if you want to take your time and build it let me know, I just received the totle amount due and will get you a check in the mail in the morning.

I LOST ABOUT 250 DOLLARS IN SHIPPING COSTS AND TRYING TO RECOVER ONE BOX OF uspo DID NOT ARRIVE THERE. NO INSURANCE EITHER, THE ONLY WAY I CAN MAKE THIS DEAL WORK IS TO GET ABOUT 5 SADDLES BUILT. THE HARDWARE SHIPPED WAS EVERYTHING NEEDED FOR SADDLE 2, SADDLE STRINGS CONCHOS AND D's I have found another saddle builder to finish these saddles,

The piece of extra leather u said was left there from the saddle shipment u can have if its worth anything. Probable not worth shipping costs to here. I figured once ordered was a order, but you can't depend on an order without cash deposit to back it up. I understand, you are very busy and don't have time to do extra work . I have built two of the ground seats in the wade tree's and built the ground seat and the sturrups on the cutter tree you had there, its looking pretty bad at the moment, I don't think it will ever look like a custom build saddle if I finish it. It needs a padded seat sewn in and the cantle binding and back jockys and liner in the skirts. I took off the rough horn cover and it needs a new install. There is a lot of work left, if you could finish it, would probably look a lot better. The other saddle builder is not wanting to finish it. The post office box of hardware is probably lost somewhere and Im not going to take time to look for it any more.

[Cyberthrasher]

That's a "Small" portion??? WOW!!! The guy's obviously subcontracting you and trying to run a business without a license/tax Id (he makes several points toward the end there that are obvious that he's making them for other people). It's also clear that he knows more about leather than you do (in his head). These are big dollar items and he's in over his head. I'd just get the lawyer involved now to CYA.

[PcCowboy]

That's a "Small" portion??? WOW!!! The guy's obviously subcontracting you and trying to run a business without a license/tax Id (he makes several points toward the end there that are obvious that he's making them for other people). It's also clear that he knows more about leather than you do (in his head). These are big dollar items and he's in over his head. I'd just get the lawyer involved now to CYA.

Well he did tell me that he was going to write a book and film a Documentary on Saddle Making since no one has been making them right since the 1800s

[Cyberthrasher]

Well he did tell me that he was going to write a book and film a Documentary on Saddle Making since no one has been making them right since the 1800s

New plan - write this whole thing up into script form and we'll make a leather working comedy series about the things we go through!!!

[PcCowboy]

Here are photos of some of his work. I don't think I have to point out his mistakes. Oh, that front is covered with garment leather with the leather folded to fit. And his new age idea is a one piece back housing, jocky seat combo. He also wants the ground seat to go down pass the edge of the bar 3-4 inchs and then sewn to the skirts. And don't you love his horn cap. As he said "no sewing needed"

[camano ridge]

Like I said in my earlier post i think he was subcontracting you to make saddles for some one else. I believe that more after reading some of his emails to you. It cracks me up that he talks so specific about what he wants you to do and how you are supposed to do it. if he knows so much then why did he not make the saddles him self. The work of his that is in the photos shows me he does not know what he wants everybody to think he knmows. I know crap about making saddles but i know if i tried to do the work he did in those pictures it would look at lot more proffesional then that. I don't think you have to worry about him. The other thing is funny is like a lot of customershe wants to be on the phone with you all the time or constantly sends emails and gets upset when he can't reach you , however if you spend all your time on the phone with them then they want to know why it is taking so long to get their project done.

Edited May 31, 2013 by camano ridge

[Bob Blea]

Looks like he's got a new way to convert a leather sofa into a saddle.

[Cyberthrasher]

Is that first picture what he sent you? I don't know JACK about saddles and I could have done better than that the day I started working hides. Hell, my daughter could do a better job. The guy is clearly clueless and wants you to cover his name for free. I'll guarantee that he's telling everyone the one you sent him was his work, regardless of what he tells you.

[WScott]

I would have a nice professional letter from your lawyer sent to him ASAP....

Something along the lines of have fulfilled your end of the bargain and will be seeking recompense if he continues this stupidity

People are asses

[WinterBear]

He's cost you a lot already, in time, frustration, and worry, not to mention your skills in making that first saddle. And that time that could have been spent working for a legitimate customer or making items to sell--after all, you could have built a saddle and sold it to someone else or made a pile of other less complicated things for the time you spent undoing his mistakes and starting the saddle over. So let your lawyer get this jerk to hit the road and leave you alone before the jerk costs you any more.

[Johanna]

omg, just reading his emails made my eyes bleed. Cease all work for this guy, cut your losses and threaten to report him if he bothers you again. You had waaay more patience and grace than most of us would have had in those circumstances. Wow. Just wow.

~J

[PcCowboy]

Is that first picture what he sent you? I don't know JACK about saddles and I could have done better than that the day I started working hides. Hell, my daughter could do a better job. The guy is clearly clueless and wants you to cover his name for free. I'll guarantee that he's telling everyone the one you sent him was his work, regardless of what he tells you.

Believe me, my name isn't anywhere on that saddle. Didn't want anyone to know that I built it.