Need Some Feedback On Dyes, Conditioning, And Finishing

[TerribleOne]

I’m new here and to the craft. I have spent most of the morning and afternoon searching through threads and reading. There are tons of threads, some lengthy. At this point I feel it is best to just post my specific questions and ask for help on that then continuing to search and read endlessly. I have gotten some good advice and tips through reading old threads though!

I am making dog collars. I have made a few for my friends and my own dog. They turned out nicely in my opinion as far as looks are concerned. I think I will do well with this when I get some knowledge and experience. I enjoy this very much. I am using 7-8oz veg tanned mid-grade leather.

However, the collars I have made already are under conditioned and won’t last through the years with the elements in my opinion.

I am self-learning and the people at Tandy were helpful, but not to the level I needed when I was there asking questions to purchase items. Example: The guy at Tandy told me all I needed to do was dye and then put on Aussie Conditioner with a cloth after and it was finished. So that’s all I did for my collars as far as conditioning goes.

Two of the collars I did have a little acrylic (Cova Color) on them. One to fill in a name stamp, the other was a hand painted design. Then Aussie blown in with a heat gun. But that’s it. Others have dye and then Aussie blown in. Again, that’s it.

So here is what I am searching for help with….

1) Eco Flo Pro Water Dye

I was originally told to get the Eco Flo Professional Water Based Dye. So I did.

I later found I needed to use Neatsfoot Oil before dying to condition the strap. (I have not got this yet)

Now, I have been told that the water based dye will not penetrate into the strap with the Neatsfoot Oil already applied and if it does it won’t be an even coat and so forth. Water vs. Oil. So I feel as if I wasted money on dye if this is true. There has to be a way to make this work I feel like. But I don’t know anything about it.

So my question here is:

How do I properly condition a strap that will be Eco Flo Pro Water Dyed (if possible)?

What should the process be if I can’t use Neatsfoot (and if I was would it be pure or prime)?

I have four bottles of various colors of the Eco Flo Pro Dye and I would like to try to use them before I invest money into a different dye (seeing as how this is for fun right now and not to profit). BUT if I can’t get an end result of a properly conditioned strap…then I won’t use them I’ll move on to other things.

2) Fiebings Oil / Spirit Dye

Reading on here makes me interested in using the Fiebing Pro Oil Dye or the Fiebing (Spirit?) Dye. http://shop.fiebing....ssional-oil-dye http://shop.fiebing....yes_leather-dye

I would think that might be a better choice to make sure my collars are properly conditioned in the making of them. Oil Conditioner, Oil Dye. And I see they offer a wide variety of colors like I would want. I’m not sure about the Spirit based one. I haven’t read much on them. Don’t know which of those two would be best….(help with that?) But I do want to try to use the dye I have first before investing in other stuff.

3) Acrylic

I have been told that using any acrylic is risky for longevity on a dog collar. That the color will crack and peel. I would hate to send a collar to someone an a few months later the places where I used acrylic was cracked and peeling. But sometimes I find I might need it. The one I hand painted, had a white dog face on it (small area). I used the Cova Color and it turned out great.

I don’t know how to finish this strap. All I did was transfer my pattern, use dye where I could (colors wise), and where I couldn’t I used Cova Color. How do I protect this? I have nothing on this collar. No Aussie. No Oil. Nothing. It is just laying on my work table at the moment.

Thank you all so much in advance for reading my lengthy post and replying.

Edited June 13, 2013 by TerribleOne

[TerribleOne]

I did get a private message with a lot of this answered. However, if anyone has anything to add it would still be greatly appreciated!

[Harag]

It would be nice if the private message was posted (edited if you want) then everyone else who have the same questions can see the answers, that's the reason to use forums.

[TerribleOne]

It would be nice if the private message was posted (edited if you want) then everyone else who have the same questions can see the answers, that's the reason to use forums.

When I said private, it’s because it was via personal email with someone. Not here on the forum. I would need to have their permission before posting their email here.

I agree, a good reason for forums, which is why I posted my questions here.

I do hope someone comes along with some advice for me on my questions. As I have read here in many posts there is more than one way to do things and I would like to hear what the people here have to offer.

I plan on sticking around here, but first I need to understand a few dye and conditioning basics

Edited June 14, 2013 by TerribleOne

[Ed in Tx]

I have one thing to add. The new Tandy Pro Waterstain is some truly incredible stuff. I am no fan of Tandy products but I tried the stuff a while back and was blown away by how well it worked. I was able to dye some gator backstrap with this by just rubbing it on the top of the skin. The finish is perfect. Now for the kicker. the price is BS, no surprise there but if you can catch it on sale buy it.

[Cyberthrasher]

Just checking in before I get to work, so I don't have a lot of time to answer the questions. BUT, I've had several posts recently explaining the process of conditioning and using acrylic as well as finishing. I know a lot of that has been in conversation with Harag - perhaps he can pull some links for you and post them here. I will say that I have no experience with the Tandy pro water crap. Anybody who told you that neatsfoot oil and water dyes wont' work has never done it and doesn't know anything about leather. LEATHER HAS OIL IN IT - PERIOD. The neatsfoot oil simply replenishes those oils. When you oil your leather, it soaks in. This isn't like painting a car or something. Disregard any neatsfoot oil that says "Prime" or "Compound" - ONLY use pure. The others are neatsfoot oil with "other" stuff mixed in (no standard) to extend it - a lot of times including minerals which could have a bad reaction with the chemicals used for tanning.

[TerribleOne]

Just checking in before I get to work, so I don't have a lot of time to answer the questions. BUT, I've had several posts recently explaining the process of conditioning and using acrylic as well as finishing. I know a lot of that has been in conversation with Harag - perhaps he can pull some links for you and post them here. I will say that I have no experience with the Tandy pro water crap. Anybody who told you that neatsfoot oil and water dyes wont' work has never done it and doesn't know anything about leather. LEATHER HAS OIL IN IT - PERIOD. The neatsfoot oil simply replenishes those oils. When you oil your leather, it soaks in. This isn't like painting a car or something. Disregard any neatsfoot oil that says "Prime" or "Compound" - ONLY use pure. The others are neatsfoot oil with "other" stuff mixed in (no standard) to extend it - a lot of times including minerals which could have a bad reaction with the chemicals used for tanning.

Thank you! I will search a bit more now that I know I can narrow it down to your postings. So much info to surf through. Thanks for taking the time to write about the Neatsfoot Oil. I do appreciate it.

I'm going to buy a small bottle of an oil base and a small botle of a spirit base to play with now that I see they are no where near as expensive as the Eco Pro I bought. I'll do some testing on my scrap and see how they turn out.

Glad I found this place!

Edited June 14, 2013 by TerribleOne

[Matt S]

Skip the spirit and just get fiebings pro if you can. Life is too short and there are plenty of things to learn without fighting crap dye. I don't know why they call it oil, there is no oil in it. But it is better than their regular spirit dyes.

[TerribleOne]

So I did a scrap with all three dyes. The oil looked dull and faded after drying compaired to the Eco Pro and the USMC spirit based. However, when I did a scratch test to see which held up better the oil base had penetrated deeper than the rest and did not show the nail scratching as much. So then I did a piece of oil base, let dry, and then did a coat of the Eco Pro. It turned out deep and rich. Even. And passed the scratch test. So I made a test collar using that dye method conditioned with pure neatsfoot, sealed with the 50/50 res and Aussie as the last step. I'm going to have my dog wear it while he rough houses with the neighbors dog that likes to bite collars. Let him swim in the pool. And see how it holds up at the end of summer. I'll experiment with some other colors, dye brands and bases, and finishing techniques and let my dog be the tester. Hopefully ill find the way I want to do things come end of summer.

Edited June 15, 2013 by TerribleOne

[Cyberthrasher]

The oil looked dull and faded after drying compaired to the Eco Pro and the USMC spirit based

Ah, black is a whole different game!! You'll find that within the same bottle and the same piece of leather you'll get different results every time. For black, if I get that faded look, I find that rubbing the dye with a light touch of oil will liven it back up.

Don't expect a leather dog collar to last through lots of swimming - regardless of how you finish it.

[TerribleOne]

Ah, black is a whole different game!! You'll find that within the same bottle and the same piece of leather you'll get different results every time. For black, if I get that faded look, I find that rubbing the dye with a light touch of oil will liven it back up.

Don't expect a leather dog collar to last through lots of swimming - regardless of how you finish it.

Good to know about the black!

I agree about the swimming. i just want to see how each test collar holds up and to put them thorough he** I'm allowing my dog to do that.

....quick question....when you put a light layer of neatsfoot oil on before dying...how light are we talking?

I've tried application with a brush, a sponge, a cloth. I find I can't get an even coat. I'm unsure if I'm doing too much or too little. I am applying it to the flesh side so it won't discolor the front. Seems where ever the oil hits first I get huge absorption and then when I try to rub around and even it it very little in comparison.

Edited June 15, 2013 by TerribleOne

[Cyberthrasher]

....quick question....when you put a light layer of neatsfoot oil on before dying...how light are we talking?

I've tried application with a brush, a sponge, a cloth. I find I can't get an even coat. I'm unsure if I'm doing too much or too little. I am applying it to the flesh side so it won't discolor the front. Seems where ever the oil hits first I get huge absorption and then when I try to rub around and even it it very little in comparison.

light light. It's always going to go on darker where you first put it down, so you have to make sure there's not that much there to begin with. I use either a sheeps wool scrap or a blue shop paper towel. Either one, I put over my bottle and do a quick splash up onto it. Then, the important part, wipe it off on the rim and follow it up by blotting it off on paper or something. Then you can use light pressure to try to evenly move it around on the leather. If you're doing dark colors, don't worry too much about discoloring the front. In fact, as mentioned, sometimes you WANT it on the front to aid in your coloring (the oil before dye will also help pull color in better). I oil the flesh if I'm going natural or I have a lot of color variation and I don't want to move color around (if it needs some oil after dying). This is where experience and trial and error are your best method. But, it sounds like you're not afraid of doing that

[lightingale]

Lol, these questions look familiar! I'll post my reply to TerribleOne's email. Slightly edited, to remove irrelevant bits about dog shows and career choices ;-)

Now for your leather questions:

It looks like you've started in a good place by visiting Tandy and asking some questions. Tandy is good when you're starting out and need to amass a variety of tools for a reasonable price, or if you want to try a new tool or technique on the cheap. Tandy will, of course, recommend the brands they carry, however, you can find much better quality tools and materials elsewhere.

As you live in the USA, you will find it relatively easy to access really great tools and supplies.

I highly recommend that you visit Springfield Leather Company (http://springfieldleather.com/) if you have one within reasonable distance of you. My USA leather friends say that they are extremely helpful in recommending what you need, and they carry a greater variety of tools, leathers, and other supplies than Tandy.

If you're not tooling/carving the leather, you don't need to use vegetable tanned leather. This can work to your advantage, as veg tan is susceptible to water damage and needs to be babied a bit to keep it looking new. The premium leather choice for you would be bridle leather. It's much more durable under use and abuse including water exposure. You can't really dye it (so you'll have fewer colour choices), and you can't tool it, but you can still stamp a name if that's what you want to do. Bridle leather is expensive though, and if you want to go with something less costly, use an oil tanned leather such as latigo.

I too have the line of Eco Flo Professional Waterstains. They're easy to use because they create less streaking during application, but I find a lot of the colours (particularly blue, green, and red) are dull-looking when compared to spirit dyes. I've also found that the colours seem to fade with a bit of water exposure. Tandy's other dyes are no better. A much better brand of dye to use is the Angelus line of spirit dyes. Springfieldleather carries them, and as an American, shipping costs should be very reasonable. Believe it or not, Angelus dyes are an order of magnitude less expensive than the Eco Flo waterstains! Remember that you can only really dye veg-tan leather (not bridle or latigo), so if you go with the bridle or latigo route, you won't need to worry about dyes.

Angelus acrylic paints are also a huge improvement over Tandy's Cova Colours and Fiebing's acrylics. The Cova colours often need multiple coats to get a rich colour, whereas the angelus ones only need one coat. Plus, the Angelus acrylic bottles have a built-in brush, like a bottle of nail polish. Less setup and cleanup. I have not had acrylic paint peel off one of my collars... it could be that the individuals who advised you used a brand of paint that is not meant to be used on a flexible surface like leather.

You can use mink oil as an additional conditioning agent (apply a thin layer before sealing the leather with a top coat). It helps waterproof and soften the leather, but it sometimes darkens the leather too. I prefer mink oil over neatsfoot as I've been told by a few sources that mink adds waterproofing. I can't confirm whether this is true, though having used both, I'm quite happy with the mink.

Aussie leather conditioner is an excellent product, and I use it on all of my leather projects after the top coat has dried. I also use it on my dogs' old leather products to prevent cracks.

Leather products all benefit from occasional conditioning, and you can inform the recipients of this if you send along an informative pamphlet with your collars. Something I'd like to do with my Etsy orders is ship along a free small container of homemade leather conditioner (made with neatsfoot oil and beeswax). I still need to devise the best ratio of each to use.

I sometimes oil my project just after tooling (after the leather has dried), as casing the leather can dry it out. It absorbs completely into the leather (which is why you use a THIN coat of oil), then I continue to dye and paint as normal. You can also oil it afterwards if that's your preference. I haven't noticed any difference in dying/painting if I oil before or after. If I'm uncertain of its effect on dye/paint, I'd just oil the back of the collar. Don't use Aussie leather conditioner before dying/painting, as there are waxes in this product that could cause problems with pigments adhering properly.

A good order of operations would be:

1. Case and tool

2. Dye/paint

3. Thin layer of oil. Give it overnight to sink in. There should be no evidence of the oil on your project when you get back to it.

4. Apply a top coat (finish)

5. Condition with Aussie's.

Remember to give plenty of time for the leather to dry between steps. I try to give each step at least 12 hours.

Did the Tandy employee mention anything to you about edges? You'll want to bevel, sand, and burnish them down to help protect the leather.

Spray sheen is like Saddle Lac (previously known as Neat Lac), which is a spray on finish. I used a similar resolene-type product once, and I must have used to much as it flaked off the collar the next day. I stuck with the acrylic sealers from then on, though I should probably do some experimenting with the lacquer-based sealants to see if do a better waterproofing job.

Whew, that got long! Let me know if you have any other questions!

I got your follow-up email, and I'll get back to you probably tomorrow. Had a busy day and I'm way behind on Etsy convos!