Help With Clicking Press!

[najram2007]

Hi All.

I have been looking at an old clicking press that is up for sale.

Its a Ramsden & Chaplin, Serial No. 31, 1.5hp. Made in Melbourne Australia. I would say it is over 60 years old?

The seller has no idea of the ton pressure(my guess would be 5 ton) and said it worked well the last time he used it.

By the look of the pictures it seems it has been either left outside for a while or uncovered in the workshop.

It will be difficult for me to test it. Im in another state of Australia. It will take a 12 hour drive to get there.

Any thought?

Is it worth buying?

Thanks.

Marj

[Trox]

Depends of the price of course, its a electro mechanical press. And it might be hard to turn around when its been left outside. You should pour paraffin in all oil points and let it loosen up a bit before running it. I just restored an old German el. mechanical clicker. Its been left outside under a big awning during winter and summer time, and needed to bee moved around by force. I got it for free, but was willing to pay for it if I had too.

Its now working very well. You can get a great machine with a bit of elbow grease.

Before and after pictures

Good luck

Tor

[Geneva]

The pressure on the machine arm is around 15 to 18 ton. It is almost identical to the United Shoe Machine Model C. The weight of the machine is around 2200 pounds. I bought one for 75 dollars at an auction 5 or 6 years ago. Terrific machine. Parts are available. Good luck getting it home.

[Trox]

Hi All.

I have been looking at an old clicking press that is up for sale.

Its a Ramsden & Chaplin, Serial No. 31, 1.5hp. Made in Melbourne Australia. I would say it is over 60 years old?

The seller has no idea of the ton pressure(my guess would be 5 ton) and said it worked well the last time he used it.

By the look of the pictures it seems it has been either left outside for a while or uncovered in the workshop.

It will be difficult for me to test it. Im in another state of Australia. It will take a 12 hour drive to get there.

Any thought?

Is it worth buying?

Thanks.

Marj

Here is one very similar Shwabe to top dollar.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/H-Schwabe-Mechanical-Clicker-Press-Die-Cutting-/290957637496?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:CA:1123

Tor

[najram2007]

Thanks for the info guys. He wants $450 AUD. I would say it will cost about $400 to deliver it. It looks like such a beautiful press and would love to restore it. I sent him an email so he could do a short video of it working but haven't heard from him yet. Tor, That's a great looking press! What does it sound like when you use it? $75 Geneva! wow! nice purchase

[Trox]

Thanks for the info guys. He wants $450 AUD. I would say it will cost about $400 to deliver it. It looks like such a beautiful press and would love to restore it. I sent him an email so he could do a short video of it working but haven't heard from him yet. Tor, That's a great looking press! What does it sound like when you use it? $75 Geneva! wow! nice purchase

Hi, it was Genava who paid 75$ for his machine , I got mine for free. The machine was for sale about three years ago for 6000 Norwegian krone`s (approx 1000 US$). I was about to buy it then, but my money went to other tools and machinery. I had forgotten all about the machine. Then three years later when cleaning up my email inn-box, I saw the mail again. And just for fun I checked if he have sold it. There are very few who do leather work in Norway, therefore he would not have many customers.

And it was kind of a sad story, he could not feed his family working as an saddler. He had done eight years of training in the UK before starting up his own as a bag maker here in Oslo, so then he had to close down. The machine stood outside his old workshop under a big awning ( during winter and summer time all that time). He said, if you still wants the machine you can have it for free if you pick it up. Lucky story for me, but not for him. he has a small leather shop in his basement, while working in a different job. I promised him a big discount on a heavy stitcher I have for sale, and he need one.

The machine did not turn easy around after standing idle for a long time, they normally do not rust inside. because there is allot of oil there. The oil becomes stiff, I had to pour big amount of paraffin (or diesel will work the same) inside all lube points, and force it to work again. Then I had to adjust the clutch mechanism, loosen it up. Then I rebuilt the motor to a single phase with two big capacitors to not loose any power. A coat with hammerite paint on the top. A other type of paint I got a tip on is car paint, several layers with clear top coat will stain all liquid including acetone (that loosen up hammerite)

When you start it you have to let the motor built up its rpm, then you pull the lever and "BANG" as a heavy hammer blow on a leather covered anvil. There is not that slow oils pneumatic sound but a shorter very powerful "BANG". Some of its powers comes from a very short stoke, I think about 20 mm or so. It has kind of a bicycle crank mechanism that transferee the power to the big column that drives the moving head. I think you will have the possibilities to get a very nice machine out of that. I do not think it turns easy after standing idle that long, thats why you will not get a video of it working, or perhaps you will. You can use it as a bargaining trump card to get the price down. You have to restore it anyhow.

Good luck

Tor

[Trevor]

Hi there,I read with intrest your pending purchase of the clicking press in the picture. You must be at a stage in your leather work business that a clicker is next on the list. I have looked at these picytures and said to myself this guy is nuts if he buys this boat anchor. Firstly it is a very dangerous piece of kit in that it will cut your hands off if you make a wrong move and using only one hand to activate your other heand better be out oif the way because a moments in-attention will be years of injury. Its not a hydraulic press . It works on inertia and with the wheel turning at the back drives the head downwards and creates a vertical inertia. The motor has unprotected belts and also the wheel is uncovered and is unsafe. My opinion is to look around and find an old hydraulic two button swivel head clicking press . Pay the money and get the good gear. You will not regret taking a little time out to think. I purchased a small single handle press and it gave me heaps of trouble. Clicking depth was the main trouble. It just wouldn't play ball no matter what or who I got to service it. Cutting depth is very important and when you have good clicking knives and good cutting boards this will take its toll. Anyway good luck with whatever you get. Cheers TRK

[najram2007]

Tor that's a great story. No doubt a great conversation starter. Free is always nice. Trevor I get your understanding. I was worried about my free hand too. Boat anchor! haha! it does look like that. Hey I always wanted to be a Pirate! I did get a short low quality video from the seller. It seems to work and sound fine. It was him just clicking it up and down with one hand behind his back. Didn't stamp out any leather though. ( I tried posting the video but don't have the slightest clue how). Putting my nostalgic tendencies aside. I am worried about the safety aspect. I would love to have a restored old press but I do need 2 hands to pull my pants up in the morning. One of the reasons why I was considering this press was because it was a single phase. I don't have 3 phase at my workshop. Well I guess I will go for the converted work shop. A bit hard to take a finger off, unless your a sloth. I was considering a 12ton or 20 ton press. Any thoughts on this? the 20 ton has about 10cm more workspace. Thanks, Marj

[Trox]

OK, you got to make yourself some routines, put your free hand in your back pocket. I have long hands (still, he he.), using one hand I can keep the at a distance from the machine when I use it. If I have to use both my hands I have to bend over the machine. And I cant get my hand under the head anyway, its no room for than. A finger can be a pancake. I was scared of this before I started to use the machine, not any more. I have my safety distance and routines. I alone use the machine. Still you got to be careful with every tool we use. There are some difference from my machine to this, and mine works very well. I have not encountered any jobs it could not do yet. Do not be afraid to refurbish this old machine, If you have several K $ to buy a new one then you do that.

Tor

[wind power]

The pressure on the machine arm is around 15 to 18 ton. It is almost identical to the United Shoe Machine Model C. The weight of the machine is around 2200 pounds. I bought one for 75 dollars at an auction 5 or 6 years ago. Terrific machine. Parts are available. Good luck getting it home.

OP

I have a USM model C clicker too...I love the machine...those mechanical clickers just keep going and going....they can be a safety hazard as someone mentioned if you get forget where BOTH hands are...If it doesn't have it, you could probably fashion a handle, which would block the linkage to trip the machine's flywheel, thus keeping the other hand out of the way, it would require it to be on the handle each time you ran it over....If you need some pictures of the linkage setup I could get some for you. Dot be afraid to purchase this machine...you can easily test it without power to it...first see if the flywheel will turn clockwise by hand when facing the machine, if so, make sure it has stopped and then trip the lever/handle in front, which disengages the clutch then turn the flywheel again slowly by hand and it should make a stroke downward and then back up and you will hear the clutch reengage, after which the flywheel will be just a little bit easier to turn by hand...if it performs this basic function you have a good machine!

[najram2007]

Yes a safety routine is a great way to keep your pointers from being squished. It is great to see that people have these great old restored machines and they keep working. Wind Power your linkage block sounds like just what I need to push me to buy this machine. Can you please post pictures of the linkage setup. It would be so much appreciated by me and by anyone in the future who comes across one of these old beauties and is worried about the safety issues. I uploaded the video onto youtube. Please have a look and tell me what you all think?? It does look a really large machine even next to the gentleman operating it. Thanks. Marj

Edited August 12, 2013 by najram2007

[wind power]

Hi Marj, It looks likes its missing every now and then either he is trying to click it again before the clutch reengages or it needs adjustment....a quick adjustment can be made in the handle arm, by slightly adjusting it in or out or slightly bending it...those machines were designed to be within a range of height cutting board and die....stll a lot of adjustment there! Power off the machine if you feel its in the machine and not the operator cycling it too fas....t adjust the arm and cycle the machine over by hand...make sure you have the power off!...cycling by hand will tell you if your adjustment will allow it to go over a complete cycle without jamming the linkage..if it jams just reverse it slightly and readjust the arm until you get it to completely cycle

[Trevor]

Hi there Najram. There seems like a few people that would like to see you buy this thing. I have a Hydraulic clicking press (Atom 18 ton) that I bought second hand and its the best thing I ever did. Its got a huge flat piece of Aluminum under the head which allows me to cut big items etc. This was supplied by the guy who was the dealer. Its an asset to my company and the only thing I replace is the little micro switches in the handles which crap out every so often. There must be places that sell second hand leather machinery where you are and the only thing I can say is to look around and buy good. Are you running a business or a museum?? ha ha. your increased leatherwork with a good clicker will pay for it in no time. Take a loan or borrow. I run a small business under my Home in Auckland New Zealand so Im not that far away and know what you are up against. If you are worried about single phase not a problem. A good engineer will change a motor for you in no time and select the same or similar HP output that you require. Here are some pics of my press for you to look at. This has been changed to single phase. Good luck mate Cheers TRK

[Trox]

It would be easy to make a spring loaded linkage block on the top of the moving head, that block the downward travel of the trigger linkage. Then a small handle you have to bend aside with the free hand. Then you need both your hands to trigger it. I do not want to be nonchalant about safety, I am careful working with all machines. You can build on a belt cover, I have belt covers on all my machines (except one Pfaff). I have eleven leather working machines (not included bench machines) some are old others new. Some of the best ones are old. I do not do mass production, I use my clicker for both embossing and cutting. I was doing mass producing I would have purchased a new machine. (By the way there was no other used machines for sale where I live). Now I see no reason why I should spend several K of dollars for a new one, when this do the job just as fast and good. I started with needles and awls, bought inn machines when I could afford it. Most members here starts with old museums pieces, I do not see any problems with that. No loans here, I own my stuff myself. Then no bank will come and take your business away either.

[Trox]

http://www.ebay.com/...=item43be6d3778

You see this one has a rebuilt double electrical trigger on it. Everything is possible. Look at the last picture and you see how they did it, with an electrical solenoid. That would not be difficult to build on.

Tor

Edited August 12, 2013 by Trox

[najram2007]

There was a nice newer clicking press on ebay last week that looked very similar to yours Trevor that was 3 phase and sold for $1600, Around $2000 with delivery. I was told by many people that the only way I could run it at home was to get 3 phase power hooked up. That would cost around $800? But not sure if I could anyway as our power bill is on the low scale. So it is possible to replace the motor to single phase? Interesting! That would be done by an Electrical engineer right?? What would it roughly cost to get the motor relaced to single phase Trevor? If I had to pick I would go with a newer press no matter how much I love museum pieces :-) And this old press would take up a lot of space im not sure I have at the moment. Or it will be a really tight fit. It would be at least 1.5x2meters. Thanks Tor, Now I see how that linkage blocker switch works. Doesn't seem to difficult to get installed. I was worried that my can might get caught in that belt. Would need a belt cover also. One of my dilemmas is these Machines don't come up very often. So its a matter of should I buy it now when I possibly don't need it or wait till the business is swinging and look for one then. I still am considering a converted 20ton shop press that will cost around $400 and take up a lot less room. I have been using a clicking press for a small fee at a little handbag workshop which is fine but it has been a hassle driving 40 minutes every time I need to use it. Everywhere is a long drive in Australia!

Edited August 12, 2013 by najram2007

[Trox]

There was a nice newer clicking press on ebay last week that looked very similar to yours Trevor that was 3 phase and sold for $1600, Around $2000 with delivery. I was told by many people that the only way I could run it at home was to get 3 phase power hooked up. That would cost around $800? But not sure if I could anyway as our power bill is on the low scale. So it is possible to replace the motor to single phase? Interesting! That would be done by an Electrical engineer right?? What would it roughly cost to get the motor relaced to single phase Trevor? If I had to pick I would go with a newer press no matter how much I love museum pieces :-) And this old press would take up a lot of space im not sure I have at the moment. Or it will be a really tight fit. It would be at least 1.5x2meters. Thanks Tor, Now I see how that linkage blocker switch works. Doesn't seem to difficult to get installed. I was worried that my can might get caught in that belt. Would need a belt cover also. One of my dilemmas is these Machines don't come up very often. So its a matter of should I buy it now when I possibly don't need it or wait till the business is swinging and look for one then. I still am considering a converted 20ton shop press that will cost around $400 and take up a lot less room. I have been using a clicking press for a small fee at a little handbag workshop which is fine but it has been a hassle driving 40 minutes every time I need to use it. Everywhere is a long drive in Australia!

Every AC motor is originally a 3 phase motor, you rebuild them to a single PH with mirroring one phase, and use a big capacitor. You loose some power on the motor this way. I have a friend who rebuilt motors, on big motors (1 KW or more) he use an extra capacitor and do it in such way that he loose very little power. He rebuilt my clicker motor to a single phase and it works better now than it did on three phase (it was some other faults on that motor too). You could change the motor for a bigger single phase to prevent the power lost on converting it to single. Do not use a frequency converter on such motor, because then you would loose more power that way. Convert it with extra big capacitors to keep the start up force on it, when the motor runs on top rpm it will be enough power anyway.

If you can buy something good for 400 $ that does not need any work, then you should do it.

Thats not much when it comes to a clicking press.

Tor

[najram2007]

Can I get some honest opinions on this press? Is it worth investing in? It seems to run OK. All up it will cost about $700 - $800 AUD with delivery. I haven't seen it in person. I have only seen the video. I guess these old machines where made to last but I am worried about major repairs. Should I be? Thanks. Marj

[najram2007]

I have decided to jump in and buy this clicking press. My local used sewing machine salesman has offered to bring it back with him on his next trip down to Melbourne in the next couple of weeks. He seems to know some things about these old presses and has been very helpful. It will only set me back $650 AUD all up. Which is in my budget.

[Trox]

I have decided to jump in and buy this clicking press. My local used sewing machine salesman has offered to bring it back with him on his next trip down to Melbourne in the next couple of weeks. He seems to know some things about these old presses and has been very helpful. It will only set me back $650 AUD all up. Which is in my budget.

Good luck.

Tor

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Good for you! I like vintage industrial machinery. It can easily be retrofitted with a guard for the back, and the tripping mechanism to keep all your fingers.

As to 3 phase at home. I have my machine shop equipment from my closed shop in a workshop at my folks old place, and run it fine with an additional 3 phase motor. We call them Jack Motors here. You wire through this motor then to your equipment . Spin the JM by hand then start your machine. This runs my 18 x 54" Monarch lathe, vertical mill, surface grinder, etc...

Some use a variable frequency drive so they can also get variable speed.

Phase converters are available, if you go this route get a rotary model, not a static.

Swap the motor. This is actually something you can do yourself.

[najram2007]

Thanks guys. I think I will need luck with this one. BigGun thanks for the info. If its not too much trouble can you please post pictures of your jack motor set up? I would like to learn more about how to convert to single phase.

[Trevor]

Hi there Najram.

Good to see you have made a decision.

I think by looking at the motor you could probably just buy another motor that is single phase and throw it on. Make sure if you do that the mounting bracket is the same. It will be bigger that's all. You may have to get a high current fuse put in at home to handle the additional current on start up that's all. If you live in an old home you may have to wire in a new cable (to you outlet) as the extra high start current may damage the wiring as well.

You make sure that you keep your fingers out of the way and build that linkage.

Good luck mate. happy clicking

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I'll see if I can dig up a drawing. In the mean time let me try to describe it, oh and by the way with this set up you will only get 2/3rds output. So if it is a 3 HP, you can use 2 of it. This was never a problem for my machine tools.

You will need a 220v plug (we always use pigtails for a clothes dryer, and a dryer outlet at the wall) a 3 phase motor of the same size or larger, and your equipment. I never had to buy an extra motor as there always seemed to be plenty getting tossed for one reason or another.

Each 3 phase motor will have 4 wires - 3 hots, and a ground.

Wire all of the grounds together.

Take one of the 220 plug lines and wire it to one of the jack motor wires, and wire those 2 to one of the equipment motor wires.

Take the other 220 line and wire the same way with the next set of wires as you did the first set.

Now take the remaining wire on each of the motors and wire them together.

To start my lathe I wrap a cord around the jack motor shaft and give it a pull. As the motor is spinning I push the plug into the outlet which will keep the jack motor running. Now you just turn on the equipment like normal. If the equipment motor is running in reverse, just stop , and spin the jack motor the opposite direction as before.

Now a word on motors. The hz need to be compatible with your wiring. Here in the States we can run European 50hz motors on our standard 60hz current, but you cannot run 60hz on 50hz or it will burn up. Here the motor runs a little slower, and cooler which isn't an issue if there is a varispeed control. I ran into this with the winery equipment that I used to rebuild for various wineries in the Napa valley. Not sure what you have in OZ. Also some, not all, but some 3 phase motors are voltage specific IE; 480v only. Luckily most are dual voltage 220/440, and all is needed to change voltage is connecting the proper combination of wires together according to the diagram on the motor. Easy peasy :-)

[wolfe9]

Biggun has you going in the right direction , let me see if I can brake it down a little for you When he is talking about a "jack motor " what he is doing is using a 3ph motor to generate 3ph

power , so you need to acquire a 3ph motor slightly larger than the motor on the machine that you

need to run . ( I will try to find a how to link for you )

Option #2 would be a "static " phase converter that is made up of capacitors to generate the thir

leg , many people say not to use a static converter but I have used them for years with no problems

Quick note EVERY option (except changing the motor )has some trade off , most conversion options

result is less available power at the machine motor but I have never had any problems related to low power , I think it will only be a problem if you are running a machine at maximum capacity . I

think that with this type of a machine it will be a non issue , it can be more of an issue on a mill or saw . more on trade offs later .

Option #3 buy a rotary phase converter , pretty much same as option #1 but factory built and

designed to be a phase converter ( works good but not cheap )

Option #4 Variable Frequency Drive , these have come down in price over the last several years and have the advantage of giving you the ability to change the speed of the motor you are driving but like everything that can have its downfalls too , VFD's are also small and pretty easy to install.

Dont stress over the belt guard or safety linkage those should be pretty easy . I will try to find some links and get them posted later .

Hope this was of some help