3 Possible Adlers And 1 Singer

[tomstas]

hello,

I'm attending an car upholstery class and i'm looking for a good sewing machine .

I've found some interesting adlers but I'm not sure they'l be any good for my future car projects.'e

The first one I looked at was a brand new duerkopp Adler 267-373. It's from a well respected dealer in holland. What I don't like about is that it is brand new and covert in white plastic. I hear a lot about new DA not beeing as good as the old one's.

So would it be better to buy an old version of this one?

Second one I found is an old duerkopp(no adler) 291. Is this one better then the 267? What's the difference ?

Is there any logic in the serial numbers? What does 267,373,etc all stand for?

The last one I found is a Duerkopp Adler 767 Fa 373. This looks like a complete different league. But hey I'm only a rookie so I could be wrong.

All the machines are in the same price range

finally, my grandfather has an old singer he used to fix shoes about 30 yearsq ago. He will show it to me on friday ,maybe it can be used after some TLc. BUt i think it's gonna be hard to find parts for this one if needed.

If someone knows a lot about these 3 please letme know

I'll post som some pictures of the 3 DA machine

Edited September 26, 2013 by tomstas

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

I can help a bit here;

The original 267s were all made in Germany, and, to the best of my knowledge, all were grey or hammer grey paint. These have been discontinued for some time now.

The white ones, again, to the best of my knowledge, came from China at first. These were 267-373 models. This factory that made this model is,again, no longer. We called to restock, and were told that the factory was flattened in China. They didn't have any 267 models for a good number of years after this.

Now, currently , today, Durkopp Adler has another made in China 267-373. They use the same model number, but this machine does differ from previous models in that the reverse lever is push down instead of lift up for reverse.

See image of this new model DA 267-373 below;

As for the full function underbed trimmer model, make sure you have the required power, often it can be 3 phase 220V, and many folks don't have this available.

[tomstas]

hi Gregg

thanks for sharing your info here..

I know that the 291 uses 3 phase 220v , don't know about the 767. The seller mentions that this can be converted to 220V; Would this be difficult and would this change the waythe machine handles?

Once again , i'm a complete noob on this matter

Here in belgium you can get 3 phase 220v is some situations. I think you need to proof that you need it for your profession , this is what a friend of mine told me; He's into electric and machines professionaly.

[GerryR]

You can get single phase-to-three phase converters, reasonably priced, and they are programmable with many options. I have one running a 1 hp, 3 phase, motor on my Singer 153 from a 220VAC single phase outlet. You can get them for virtually any hp motor. Here is a link to the one I am using: http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS1_(120_-z-_230_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control)/GS1_Drive_Units_(120_-z-_230_VAC)/GS1-21P0. It's another option and I would be happy to answer any questions you might have about setting one up.

Regards,

Gerry

[tomstas]

Gerry, thanks for your info , i'll check it out later today.

When i come home i'll be going to my grandfather to look at his old Singer. Maybe i'll just start with that one if it's functional. Otherwise

I'll have to decide witch Adler i'm going to buy. I just feel that maybe i'm going to fast and it would be better to wait a few months longer .Maybe if i have more knowledge the choices will be easier to make.

It's good to know that converting a machine is do-able and affordable. Great info on this forum and nice people. That means a lot to me

[Constabulary]

I guess the Grandfathers Singer is a class 29 patcher as you mentioned he did shoe repair with it?

I don´t know what exactly you are planing to do with your sewing machine but for auto upholstery a walking foot machine would be the 1st choice.

I´m not doing upholstery in the classic sense but I´m sewing a lot canvas and some leather. I worked with a Pfaff 138, 238 flat bed and 28 cylinder bed and Adler 104 flat bed (all not walking foot) before I found my old Singer 111. Its about 50 years old and still works smooooooth. So when you are new to this "Hobby" you are probably not willing to spend too much money. I always can happen that find out that it is not your business. You know what I mean? I don´t know how much the above mentioned Adlers are but either type is quite costly I´d assume.

My Paff 28, 138 and 238 worked while but the more I worked the more ideas I had and then figured they are no longer suitable for what I`m doing.

Then I found the 104 and figured it somehow it tooooo big (but I still have it). The last one was my 111D156 and I love it! It suits very well for me.

BTW for non of the above I paid more than 150€ BUT I had to do a lot of cleaning, refurbishing, replacing some parts, adjustments and motor replacements + the gas I consumed for picking them up. But I liked it very much. Sometimes it is good to go through a kind of "Machine-finding-process". Not easy to explain. However, the machines should suit the work you are planing to do with them and the money you spend should be a good relation to your output no matter if it is a hobby or business. Thats just my opinion.

Converting a clutch motor from 380V / 400V to 220V is not a big task.

I don´t know how the electrical plugs in Belgium looks like but I assume they are almost the same as in Germany.

I converted 3 Pfaff + Kobold clutch motors from a 380V /400V to 220V with a starting capacitor and Steinmetz circuit.

But again - I don´t know how the electrical system in Belgium is and you should not do this if you are unsure of what you are doing.

[tomstas]

Constabulary

all things you mentioned above make a lot of sense. It's my goal to start a business in car upholstery (especially oldtimers and custom work , this would also include dashboard,sidepanels,steering wheels...

But i still have a long way to go but i know for sure this is what I really want. I curently self employed, i have a small newspaper store which is very time consuming that's why i want to install a smaller machine here in the shop and start some experimenting with smaller stuff i can sell her. i was thinking about shoe reapair, making covers foor books small walets , ...,that sort of stuff just so I can practise my sewing;

When I'm done with the car upholstery lessons and I feel i'm good enough to make a living out of that i want to quit my current job and go fulltime into car upholstery.

I realise that car upholstery and making wallets isn't quite the same.

About the electricity in Belgium, If i show this post to my uncle I'm sure he knows what you are talking about. He has been doing this for 30 years. Me knows nothing about this matter ;-)

The machines I showed here arer quite expensive, around 1500 €; That's a lot for a beginner but I really wan't to buy something good instead of 5 or 6 bad one's.

[Constabulary]

well, maybe you should look over the fence (thank god there is no fence ;-) ) on Ebay Germany. There are always some quite interesting machines listed.

My Singer 111 was just 100€ incl. an old clutch motor and a wooden stand. I had to drive 125Km one way and spent some time in adjusting and replacing the timing belt (ordered it from the USA) and I repainted it and put a new decal on it (just for optical reasons) so it overall cost me about 180€. I also loved restoring it as I learned a lot about the machine. I´m going to replace the motor soon with a Servomotor but thats a different story, the clutch motor is still working well. The Singer of course was a lucky circumstance but it is possible to get a good machine for below 500€ but you probably have to travel a bit.

For example, there are always some nice Pfaffs on Ebay Germany.

www.ebay.de/itm/151128683177

www.ebay.de/itm/111173932392

I think the two above will not go over 350€

I know you are from Brussels and its quite a way but it could be worth the traveling! Of course, there is always a risk but theses old machines are really work horses and they will last for decades. As I said before my Singer 111 is about 50 years or older and runs smooth. Its about the same class as the Pfaff 145 or Adler 167. And parts for older Pfaffs and Adlers are not a big problem.

[Constabulary]

Because of the capacitor + Steinmetz circuit, this website is quite helpful but you have to translate it.

http://forum.electro...880f29_bs0.html

Edited September 27, 2013 by Constabulary

[tomstas]

I don't know why but i've ignored the other brands (pfaff etc. ) here. it think it's because we use the adlers in class that I kinda like them and maybe consider them to be the best of the best.

I think you're right when you say "look over the fence" . In Belgium the say : "look further then the tip of your nose BTW"

I know some pfaffs here on belgium websites that are under 500 €. I just thought the possible couldn't be capable of the same things as the more expensive adlers.

I guess it's true that i might need to buy more then one in my life and that it's best to start with a cheaper machine.

[tomstas]

sorry ,

could you tell me which type of pfaffs are good for car upholstery? I've found a Pfaff type 5483-814. there is not much info on but it's in the neighbourhood Looks nice and not used that often

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

You can get single phase-to-three phase converters, reasonably priced, and they are programmable with many options. I have one running a 1 hp, 3 phase, motor on my Singer 153 from a 220VAC single phase outlet. You can get them for virtually any hp motor. Here is a link to the one I am using: http://www.automatio...0_VAC)/GS1-21P0. It's another option and I would be happy to answer any questions you might have about setting one up.

Regards,

Gerry

Automation direct is one of my secret weapons; they have great products, services, and ship fast. I've spent $,1,000s of dollars with them over the past few years.

[Constabulary]

Well, I´m not the big expert but I know the Singer 111W, Pfaff 145 and Adler 167, Consew 225 are about the same class and they even look very similar. I think the Adler 267 reduced to what you can do with it, is almost the same as the 167 but has a more modern appearance and a built in bobbin winder. Go through the posts in the sewing machine section here in the forum and I´m sure you will find these brands and classes over and over again.These are surly not the most up to date models abut they are all very reliable and they will last for decades!

You should probably reduce it to the basics - for example an Adler 167 (or similar model) for 500€ compared with a 267 (or higher class) for 1500€ and up. What are MY advantages on the 267 and is it worth to spend 1000€ more. They both sew with walking foot, have an adjustable stitch length, maybe the 267 has a slightly higher foot lift (if at all) and it has a built in bobbin winder and looks more modern --- but is that worth 1000€ more?

How long do you have to work for 1000€? Your Bank gives you a 1000€ loan w/o problems but you have to pay it back (+ fees on top) with what you are producing with the machine or you have to sell a lot of extra newspapers.

You will probably find out that you will need more than just one machine depending on the work you have to do. So you can spend the saved money on a 2nd or even 3rd machine or other tools you may need in your business.

I think my Singer is a good example for that, it was cheap, after restoring it looks awesome (from my point of view) and works perfect. Why the hell should I buy a 1500€ machine? Only because it looks modern and has a built in bobbin winder?

And on top of that, when you are doing Oldtimer upholstery, wouldn´t it be cool to work on some nice old machines? Think of an upholstery shop with a couple of old but nice looking and perfect working sewing machines. I mean the really old ones... Old cars - old sewing machines... I love the idea.

Just my 2 cents.... Others may have different opinions.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Constabulary

[tnawrot2]

Just a suggestion, I would ask your instructor about different sewing machines for upholstery. There are many forums that talk about car upholstery, from which you can get more information

https://www.google.com/search?q=caar+upholstery+forum&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[tomstas]

I'm an oldschool type of guy myself, i would love to have old machines to work with.

I like the 50's and 60's and 70's , I have an 70 olds cutlass and love it and i listen to rock&roll more then the modern cr@p on the radio.

I don't care about new expensive stuff, I just want good (if posible good) stuff.

I currently looking at someone's add on the web. He seems to be a retired leather craftsman who sells everthing he's got. He has 3 o

r 4 sewing machines for under 500€ /piece.

He lives only about 10 miles from here so i'll try and talk to him today.

i've learned quite a bit today thanks to all you guys

cheers

[Constabulary]

seems we are on the same track

[tomstas]

Went to see my grandfathers sewingmachine. This was really an old machine . It was a singer from over 50 years ago. he paid it around 17000 BEF back then.

This is about 425€ . WOw life was already expensive back then.

I think It's a Singer 29 leather boot patcher. Can't find type on it, it was getting dark and it was stored in a corner in his shed and covert in dust & spiderwebs;

I told him i would fix her up some day and try to sell it for him because it was not what I hoped it was .

Yesterday I got a call for the person whom I contacted through the internet . He told me that he had 3 machines still for sale , one A them would be ideal for me ( others are more for shoe patching as well) and he has also a lot of leather he wants to sell. I don't know if these are leftovers are useable big pieces.

Anyway he want's 500€ for the machine, let's hope i can make a good deal for the leathers as well; Gonna check it out this saterday and will take some pictures of his collection. I'm not gonna buy right away, i got some other machines I first want to look at.

[tomstas]

hi guys, just a brief update.

i found a local girl who has a pfaff 138-6 for sale; It misses a belt for the motor but otherwise looks very complete; it's got a lot of extra parts and orignal manual.

She doesn't seem to know anything about it. So if it runs tomorrow i'll think i'll buy it. She was happy to sell it to me for 80 €;

I think this is a good deal , what do you guys think. I think about cleaning and put oil in myself. I just hope that the belt is the only missing thing. she claims it works without a problem

here are some pics

[Constabulary]

80€ is a very good price. This also was my 1st machine but I quickly learned it is not "strong" enough for me. The Pfaff 138 is a very good machine but has its limits, it is not made for sewing heavier materials. Its a Tailor machine for sewing garments and not really made for car upholstery but it is a good machine to start with / to learn with. It may have its problems with thick upholstery threads too. You can sew a few layers of soft garment leather but thats it. And as it is foot operated you will have problems with the torque when sewing thick materials real slow. You should add a Servomotor. Or has it a motor - but I can´t see one. The thick leather lace is the drive belt so it is not missing. In case you will sell it again you should be able to get 250€ for it. I would buy it for 80€ no matter if it works for you or not. I´m sure this will not be your last machine especially when it comes to car upholstery.

[tomstas]

hi constabulary

I was just looking for some more info on the pfaff. i'm currently looking on the blogspot "ucansew2.blogspot.be" . This guy tells almost the same as you do.

Not reaaly good for upholstery but overall a very good machine. I still have trouble to identify a real triple feed machine from others. I guess I have some serious reading to do. continue my search tomorrow but will buy the pfaff anyway I think. I think it's worth more as you mentioned but it seems hard to find buyers.

I currently don't have the space to store multople machines; Dilemma coming up..;

I

[Constabulary]

BTW the small oval shaped metal part above the leather belt on picture 1 it for coupling the leather drive belt. The belt should have 1 small holes on either end. Through these holes goes the oval thing. If one hole it ripped, take a hammer and a 3mm nail with you and punch new hole into the belt about 5mm from its end.

The 138 also sews zig tag and can sew on button with the correct presser foot. I really loved the 138 but it was not strong enough for me.

[Constabulary]

the 138 has no triple feed.

Triple feed machines have 3 bars when you look from the left side, one for the needle one for the walking foot and one presser foot. So when it looks like this (see picture) it has a triple feed.

Look at this video

and watch the Video in this thread

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=49979

Edited October 1, 2013 by Constabulary

[Constabulary]

last post for today ;-)

You found the ucansew2.blogspot.be already

Look at the Pfaff 145 and Singer 111w155 - this is what you want!

[tomstas]

first post of new day.

thanks for the triple feed info. that makes everything a lot easier for my search.

People just don't put the right info when they are selling their machine.

It's most of the time something like "industrial machine" or "heavy stitching machine" .

They almost never mention what it can or can't do, type numbers,model,making year.

Sellers also often think that It will stitch leather without a problem which it offen doesn't

That makes it hard to buy second hand.

Sorry i didn't react right away yesterday . I was already gone to bed. It's rise and shine around 4H30 ...

[Constabulary]

don´t forget to watch the video in the thread I have linked above, that may help you too.