General Belt / Leather Newbie Questions

[Meterry]

Hi

I'm new here and have spent a little time reading and plan to spend a lot more time.

I started leather working several years ago essentially because I'm a cheapskate but I enjoy learning and practicing working with leather. My start was in making holsters for handguns and sheaths for knives of my making. My sole source of materials has been Tandy.

Sort of as an outgrowth of the work with holsters and sheaths were belts. Up until very recently I'd used only Tandy pre-cut belt blanks. I've not been completely pleased with the consistency and quality of the Tandy blanks and thought I'd make a few from my normal holster / sheath material; 8-9 ounce vegetable tanned shoulders.

Normally with a holster or sheath, I will wet the leather entirely so that the folds can be made prior to hand stitching. With the belts, I did not wet the leather and saw no need to (except for the fold for the buckle). Everything goes pretty much as planned but what I find is that after dyeing, I end up with a very stiff belt. The edges are almost impossible to smooth.

I have spent a fair amount of time trying various leather oils and treatments (neetsfoot, etc.) but I find that any softening is minimal.

What's required to end up with a relatively soft and supple belt?

I'd like to thank the forum members for their time and work supporting the forum and for any help anyone can offer ahead of the event. I'm delighted to have found the site and look forward to learning from it and its members.

Mark

[Tree Reaper]

I want a stiff belt, they loosen up with time and use.

Neatsfoot oil on the blank will soften it a little or use thinner leather.

[Cyberthrasher]

The 8/9 oz is going to be stiff, but it will break down with use. Are you oiling after you dye?

[Meterry]

Tree Reaper and Cyberthrasher:

Thanks for the replies.

I agree that a stiffer belt would be preferable - just not this stiff and hard. What actually prompted me to seek professional help was actually cracking a belt when I was applying oil and flexing a belt. The belt literally cracked with a cracking noise.

Several years ago I bought a belt from Cabelas, I think, called a "Roughneck" jean belt. It was a very good balance between stiffness and flexibility and stayed that way for a long time. The feel was much more like a 'latigo' type leather (or what I've seen marked as latigo). Ideally, I'd like to have my belts turn out more like the Cabelas belt.

Thanks again

[Tree Reaper]

That could be stale/poor leather.

Oil after you tool and before you dye.

Don't bend the leather, allow it sit for a couple of days after oiling.

The Cabela belt might be different than veg tan.

If you call Springfield and explain what you want they may have the leather you need.

[Cyberthrasher]

That definitely sounds like poor leather. I had a Hermann Oak "Craftsman" side like that (that's their low grade available at Springfield).

Oil helped, but it wasn't great on the outer regions of the side. Once I got into the bottom of the back and toward the belly, things got a lot better for me.

It's also something that you'll notice more on larger pieces as opposed to the sheaths and holsters you've been using it for.

[asallwey]

I'm new to this game and ran into the same issue with a couple of belts. They were very stiff, so I looked for help. I found the following reference where Cheryl recommended bag balm, a thick lanolin cream. You can usually find it at garden shops. This does seem more effective than neatsfoot oil.

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=40996&hl=%2Bsoftening+%2Bleather post #4

Alex

[chiefjason]

Sounds like the first step might be to get better leather. But that's an expensive step too. I have a few feet of some old leather that I bought second hand from a guy that got it at a yard sale. It's worthless and cracks when it bends. Something does not sound right about what you are seeing. I use 15 oz Saddle Skirting for some of my belts and they are not stiff to the point of being hard to wear. They are stiff vertically to hold a gun, but the wear nicely. Same with my 13-14 oz Harness leather ones.

What are you dying it with?

You could try soaking the belt blank for a few minutes, but not in neatsfoot oil. It will stay oily a long, long time. A Feibings 4 way, Weavers saddlers oil, or Lexol would dry faster and less oil on the surface. My black harness leather belts go in a bucket of Lexol for a few minutes once I have them cut to size. Out of the bucket and straight to the burnisher, then let them dry.

[Meterry]

Man, lots of good help and insight!

I was looking at some of the pieces I've made and there is a definite difference in leather although I have been using the same product from Tandy. I suppose it's like the butcher told me once, "Sometimes you just get a bad cow". Any insight for picking raw materials would be appreciated. Tandy has recently opened a store within about an hour and I can now go pick my double shoulders as opposed to getting what they pick.

So I gathered some scrap pieces and set out to look at if I could see a difference between pieces moistened (maybe 'cased' although I'm not sure) and/or oiled before dyeing. I just wetted the surface and held the pieces under water for 30 seconds or so and made sure all of the surfaces were wetted.

I then took pieces that were wetted, oiled one with Lexol (it was handy), and then dyed pieces that had only been wetted, wetted and Lexol'd, and dry pieces. At first glance the difference is significant. I am using two Fiebing's dyes, one that is a "professional" oil dye, the other is #201 Light Brown (the #201 is the one I generally use).

I will let them dry for a while and re-evaluate but first impressions are that pieces wetted dyed better and more uniformly. Pieces dyed after wetting and Lexol are better yet. Dry pieces that were dyed are less uniform.

One very interesting observation: When going through the scrap pile, I came across a piece I'm convinced was a better piece of leather and I'm pretty sure I can tell you which holsters I made from the piece. The flesh side is remarkable smoother and this carries out to the finished piece. The edges smoothed much better and overall, it just seems to be a better piece of leather. I purposed dyed a piece of this, dry, with the 'professional" oil dye. Ten minutes after I dyed the pieces, Iooked at them and questioned whether I had missed that piece. It was very slightly darker but in most respects looked like it was undyed. A quick sniff confirmed it did get dye but got lighter as it began to dry. Whenever I have used this, it's always been on wetted leather so I wouldn't have noticed this before.

When applying dyes, I use a wool dauber and add dye until it no longer soaks in.

When thinking about oils, I'm struck that a lot of the commercial preparations are different in one major aspect. Oils like neetsfoot oils are (I believe) oils without any water. Products like Lexol contain water and this seems to help absorption (although the water eventually evaporates leaving the oils). It seems this is important to the end product (I have heard that some people use oils or surfactants in the water used for casing and this probably has some effect). Keep in mind, I'm not casing in preparation for tooling but because most of the stuff I normally made has to be folded.

In respect to the dyes, it seems to me that the Fiebing's dyes I'm using are different and there are probably reasons to use one or the other. There wouldn't be two different products otherwise (this is my possibly erroneous thinking). The "professional" oil dye seems to have petrochemical type solvents (maybe toluene or xylene) whereas the #2 seems to have ethanol (this is judging by smell alone). Any insight anyone can offer would be appreciated.

Sorry for the 'stream of consciousness' and length of the post. It's just that I've not had folks with this level of knowledge and experience to ask before. In case you are wondering, I am a chemist and work in the chemical industry - so I'm semi-contaminated with maybe more technical knowledge than is necessary

Many thanks to all,

Mark.

[chiefjason]

I dye all of my leather dry. But I do cut most of my dyes with denatured alcohol. Less if I want the truer color of the dye, 1 part alcohol 3 parts dye...ish. More if I want to lighten the dye, up to 50-50.

If I apply any oil, it's after the dye has dried. I use an oil/wax finish at the end, so I usually don't add extra oil to a holster. Belts I oil heavily.

Might want to think about ordering your leather from Springfield leather. By all accounts I see it's better than Tandy. Next best option would be to hand pick your leather.

Was the part of the leather that cracked fleshy on the back? That smooth back is what you want. The fleshy stuff is less firm and the "fat wrinkles" tend to open up and crack after dyeing. Fleshy leather also edges poorly. That smooth backed, dense leather is what you want for holsters. The belly of the hide tends to have more fat wrinkles, damage, it's thinner, more fleshy, and less firm. All the good stuff is up closer to the actual side or back. If you are not ordering full sides it's probably hard to tell which end is which. But sounds like you might have gotten some belly leather.