When Is It Hand-Made, As Opposed To Machine-Made?

[Ian1783]

I'd like to market what I produce as "hand made", but wondered if there is a fairly distinct line between hand-made and machine-made.

If I use a clicker to cut out pieces and a sewing machine to assemble, is that then machine made? If mine is a home-based business where I design and assemble (make) leather goods, essentially by hand, but not hand-sewn, can I say my wares are hand made?

In that vein, if I clicker-cut and machine-sew products (in this case, small bags and purses) using leather from who knows where and hardware (buckles, conchos, etc.) from Tandy, say (almost assuredly made outside the USA), can I market my finished products as "Made in USA"? Or would I be constrained by the possible overseas source of my materials to "Assemble in USA", or (worse) "Assembled in USA with Parts made in China" (for instance)?

I'm hoping some of you on this forum have considered these things and might provide direction, as I have no idea how this works. Thanks!

Ian

SF Bay Area

http://imcinnis.blogspot.com/

[TXAG]

On the items I sell that are made of all US-sourced materials, I state this for exactly this reason -- I believe in supporting the US economy anytime I can, so will buy US-manufactured materials, when possible. On the items I can do this, I state such so I can set myself apart from others that either omit that information or state they use imported materials.

...but that's just me...

As for "hand made" vs. "machine made", I guess that's up for debate...in my case, if I hand-sew my items, I will make sure to state that in my listings so that folks know I made every stitch manually, by hand and without a machine...again, to set myself apart from the "others". I'm not saying there's anything wrong with using a sewing machine...I use one on the tactical gear I make. But some folks prefer hand-sewn items so if it's something like that and I've hand-sewn it, I am going to make dang sure my customers know that and know the difference.

But to answer your question, if you are performing all the work yourself (even with the use of tools/machines), I think you could still call it "hand made" if you wanted to...

Edited January 7, 2014 by TXAG

[shooter55]

Ian....here is my view on your question. If the product is made individually by a living, breathing person, using any resource other than a "put in here, push the button, and it comes out there" , and not an automated production line system, I think you are warranted in calling it hand-made. just an opinion.

Tim

[Tex Shooter]

I label all of my leather products except my clicker products, hand cut and hand stitched. I still get ask if I am doing them on a machine. For anybody that has been around leather very long it is pretty easy to tell hand stitching from machine sewing. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with a machine sewn product. It is just not what most of my ranch stores and customers want. It is just a little nitch of mine that I have been selling to for quite a while. -- Tex

[Ian1783]

Thank you all for your responses. As I prepared my reply, it dawned on me that when my wife ever made articles of clothing, whether skirt, shirt, blouse or napkin, she certainly considered it hand-made - always on a sewing machine - no matter that the fabric was store bought. I think, as Tim pointed out, that our process fits the description of what most would regard hand-made, as opposed to a "push-button" process.

Our leather bags are not of the hand-stitched variety, nor is that our goal. In fact, the stitching is quite secondary, or even more removed from our first intent to produce simple, hand-made, leather bags, pouches, workshop aprons, etc. We're hoping to have fun with a new hobby, while possibly making a few bucks to help pay for the venture.

Thanks again. Great forums. I'm glad I ventured here.

Ian

SF Bay Area

http://imcinnis.blogspot.com/

[SLudlow]

As the others have said, hand sewn/stitched is similar yet different from hand made.

Personally, in the interest of transparency, I find that my most preferred manufacturers post videos of their production process in full. For the customer, knowing who/how a product was made is so much of the reason for purchasing from you vs. Generic manufacturer #5.

Then again, your business is your own. The only rules available should be your own that you feel comfortable with. In my personal opinion, if you make your products, or you make your products locally without outsourcing the assembly, they should be able to be called hand-made.

[Denise]

A major saddle production company recently ran ads in a major magazine promoting their "hands made" (plural) saddles, with a picture of one of the 46 workers whose hands made their saddles... Production line stuff, obviously, but since it can't pop out the end of a machine as a finished product, they felt they could advertise it as "hands made". I guess they felt comfortable calling them that... I don't think there are any regulations or standards in North America as to what you can or should call your work. Your own standards (and integrity) are what are important and what will eventually come through to your customers.

[oltoot]

IMHO, If you don't use a clicker and you handsew horn and cantle, then a saddle is still hand made if what can be sewn on a machine is the saddle is still handmade. If you don't have a sewing machine, the stuff you make won't be better than it would just be handsewn.

[TXAG]

If you don't have a sewing machine, the stuff you make won't be better than it would just be handsewn.

That's a matter of opinion -- not fact.

[Denise]

IMHO, If you don't use a clicker and you handsew horn and cantle, then a saddle is still hand made if what can be sewn on a machine is the saddle is still handmade.

I'm quite sure production saddles are clickered out, but even if they weren't I still don't think that pieces of leather stapled to the tree with an air gun by a series of production line workers compares to a saddle made by a single craftsman... Different techniques, different price level, different markets. But I guess marketing is marketing...

(Note: I'm not saying all "hand made" saddles are necessarily better than all production ones. I've seen some pretty rough "hand made" saddles. But overall, there is no comparison.)

[Rayban]

I have never been asked by a customer if my work is hand-stitched or done by machine. Never. Seems like the only group of people that are concerned about that are leather workers.

I read on a gun forum recently that a holster that is not hand-stitched cannot be called hand-made...and this guy went on to say that any holster maker worth his do-do shouldn't use a stitching machine and cannot be taken seriously......very silly statements of course.....he, by the way, is a holster maker hobbyist who only does hand-stitching....and not very good at it.

I average making a belt or holster a day and have found electricity to be pretty handy in the making process, including stitching, and I have absolutely no problem with my makers stamp which says "handmade by..."

[Andrew Chee]

Maybe you should market your goods as "made from start to finish by a single craftsman". I've seen people say that and it's (at least to me) as good if not better than saying hand made (which as people have noted could mean pretty much anything these days).

Truth though us that people nowadays who really care about this probably want to know more about your whole process beyond just the label of "hand made" so if you have a website or something you should include a description of your process.

Andrew

Edited February 1, 2014 by Andrew Chee

[electrathon]

The question of hand sewn verses machine sewn seems pretty silly if you relate it to any world other than leather. If you went to a seamstress and had a shirt made would you expect it to be sewn with a needle and thread instead of a machine? Would you feel that it was better quality (actually it would be worse) if it was sewn with a needle and thread?

On the other side, Nike shoes are sewn on machine, by hand. Are they hand made?

[Rayban]

Hope this doesn't turn into an analogy comparison exercise...as these discussions often do.

Not knowing anything about shoe manufacturing, I can only speak of my process...I cut a piece of leather of the side of a cow, and make something out of it, by hand.

[Spence]

Hope this doesn't turn into an analogy comparison exercise...as these discussions often do.

Not knowing anything about shoe manufacturing, I can only speak of my process...I cut a piece of leather of the side of a cow, and make something out of it, by hand.

That says it all. Kudos.

[electrathon]

Not knowing anything about shoe manufacturing, I can only speak of my process...I cut a piece of leather of the side of a cow, and make something out of it, by hand.

I too agree it is a complicated question. I used Nike as an example only because they are a huge company. My example of this is just that your desctiption of what you do is an acurate description of a Chinese factory construction if you simply remove the word "I". Some of the best seamstresses in the world work in factories. Leather is clicked for consistacy and speed, exactly like many of us do for our "handmade" items. What about the fact that the leather you used to make the item came out of a factory instead of being tanned by hand, that would make your item at least partially factory made. The thread we sew with is made in a factory too.

Sadly, much of the "factory" made items far excede the quality of many "handmade" items. I have had leather people tell me that you can not expect the quality of handmade items to be as good as factory items. I do not agree with this,but admit that it is often true. In my opinion, if my work is not better than a factory item I am wasting my time.

[JLSleather]

Sadly, much of the "factory" made items far excede the quality of many "handmade" items.... if my work is not better than a factory item I am wasting my time.

Exactly. Often, the idea of "handmade" is offered as an excuse for why it shows obvious flaws. This is ridiculous, but none the less true.

[Andrew Chee]

I think this is why it's important to describe your process to people. There are things that individuals would do that a factory usually wouldn't. For example, when I use copper rivets I set them by hand and then peen them and dome both sides. Factory set rivets don't usually don't do that. On stressed areas that I I sew by machine, I hand backtack the beginning and end stitches. This is stronger than just machine backtack. Most factories don't do that.

Let's face it, many factories make very good quality items. I think you have to sell yourself on the individuality, quality, and details of your work.

Andrew

[WyomingSlick]

Sounds to me like it is just a problem of communication. In this case it is because of an economy of words. "Handmade" by itself is too ambiguous. How about replacing it with something along the line of "HANDMADE INDIVIDUALLY BY A CRAFTSMAN" OR "ORIGINAL HANDMADE BY THE ARTIST"??

[Tex Shooter]

How about "Hand cut, hand saddle stitched and hand riveted". I tag every one of the leather sheaths that I sell like that. -- Tex

[Rayban]

My customers have never asked for my definition of it, they take my word for it.

[NVLeatherWorx]

Mine have never asked either but that is because I market everything I do as "every step of the process is completed entirely by hand and by the same craftsman, me. There are no machines of any kind used within my shop." And that only leads to the questions of how do you do that? Can you show me how that works? Which is never an issue because when I am attending any of the local and Regional fairs/shows I always have a complete mobile workshop setup and I am always working on something so anyone who visits my little corner of the World for that event gets to watch an actual craftsman working. It is kind of like an interactive sales environment and it is very successful for me.

Handmade is, as several have pointed out, an undefined term when it comes to our trade. One thing I do not ever consider handmade are those who market themselves as belt makers that make beautifully decorated belts that have a range of basketweave or other designs "embossed" in them. This embossing is done by using a belt embossing roller and the sole purpose of doing this is to create the mass-produced products for the sole purpose of big profits and no commitment to the client. If you can't do a simple basket stamp in an acceptable time frame, don't lie to the customer by saying that you make everything by hand. What did you really do to make this item? In the case of the belt maker, they took a pre-made belt blank (already had the snaps and buckle tongue hole cut), dampened it and ran it through a roller, let it dry, added some dye or stain, installed a $.49 buckle, and packaged it up as a handmade belt. In most cases they don't even finish the edges. That, to me is not handmade as it didn't really require you to engage in the crafting of it, you just ran it through some simple processes that a monkey can be taught to do, nothing else.

But that is just my feeling on this discussion. There are far more opinions out there and they would only make this conversation even more confusing. The only thing you need to ask yourself is this: if I were buying a handmade item (and that would be a truly handmade item), what standards and quality of craftsmanship would I expect? Confusing to have to answer your question with that very question, isn't it?

Good luck in your quest to determine your direction and I welcome to the real world of "what was I thinking?".

[Andrew Chee]

I think what Nvleatherworx says is good. One thing that bothers me is when I see things that are termed "hand made" and the quality is not very good (the edging is poor or the stitches are not straight and even) and people try to explain it away by saying its hand made. My personal opinion is that it should be made better than what some factory in china can make them. Otherwise, why not buy it from the factory in china? It'll certainly be cheaper.

Andrew

[JLSleather]

Just guessing from many listings I've seen lately, apparently "hand tooled" is widespread- 'hand carved' is not. I guess if click a shape, emboss a design in a press, this is still "hand tooled" as long as you had a TOOL in your HAND when you edged it, or set the snaps, etc. Perhaps that's marketing poop, or perhaps that's as far as the conscience will allow some to go. You don't have to look far .. there are links to Etsy shops every third page around here.

Now, each his own. I don't even sweat it - people have been full of it since before i was born. I just concern myself with MY stuff. If someone asks, I'll tell them how I did it. No charge. You don't have to buy the book.

I have a machine, but I'll saddle stitch it if requested. I don't have a clicker press, though I haven't ruled that out and think if I clicked the shape, it'll still be my work. I could go on, but the ones who might listen already know ...

[Samalan]

In the book bluesteel&gunleather page 224&225 John Bianchi on custom holsters " The myth of Custom Made" Written as only the world's Foremost Authority on holsters could tell it!.

I too agree it is a complicated question. I used Nike as an example only because they are a huge company. My example of this is just that your desctiption of what you do is an acurate description of a Chinese factory construction if you simply remove the word "I". Some of the best seamstresses in the world work in factories. Leather is clicked for consistacy and speed, exactly like many of us do for our "handmade" items. What about the fact that the leather you used to make the item came out of a factory instead of being tanned by hand, that would make your item at least partially factory made. The thread we sew with is made in a factory too.

Sadly, much of the "factory" made items far excede the quality of many "handmade" items. I have had leather people tell me that you can not expect the quality of handmade items to be as good as factory items. I do not agree with this,but admit that it is often true. In my opinion, if my work is not better than a factory item I am wasting my time.