Exotic Ethics?

[badLoveLeather]

I use a lot of exotic skins in my work. It was how i was taught. I appreciate all the crazy skins I work with and most of what i work with is farmed just like cow hide. One skin that is not is Elephant. These days I have a source that allows me to buy it and quite frankly its commin out my ears. I've always been taught and educated that Elephants are in use all over the world. They work in India. They work in Circus' and they are in Zoos as well. Sooner or later the die. some of the skins I get somes from these situations. Some of them are "Culled". Culling is the process of thinning a herd to allow the rest of the herd to survive and thrive. its selectivly done. All of the skins I buy have CITES tags and its all above board and legal. Besides the Elephant Skin is some of the more amazing leather I've been getting. The grain and character on it is like no other.

I'm detailin this because I got some crap from someone sensative to the issue the other day. I tried my best to help them understand that I do use every last bit of skin I get. I also explained the above and tried to help them understand that using the skins makes whole use of the animal.

Funny I never get this type of bleeding heart stuff about Aligators, Stingray or Shark. Or even Ostrich for that matter. AND no ever cries for the frogs i use too. Why?

I have a certain ethic about what I do and it keeps me good. I'm not making wallets outa Seals, Bald Eagles or your dog for that matter.

Any thoughts from the Senior Members here?

[Hilly]

I'm not a senior member, so my opinion may not count but....

I don't have any problem whatsoever with exotics which are legally and humanely dispatched. I just hope that the rest of the animal is used in some way, and not just left for the buzzards.

I would some day, like to try my hand at using some elephant or hippo skin in my work.

Don't let the "anti's" bother you. Opinions are like noses (insert body part here).... everyone has one.

[Windy]

Well I am not a senior member but if you continue

to read you will read my take on this subject.

I too love using exotic skins in leather work

and exotic woods in my wood working. Shucks

I just like exotic things. Anywho way back about

twenty years or so I made a cue case for myself

from python and cobra. The first night I took it

out with me, this huge monster of a man walked

up to me and ask if it was real snake skin. I told

him yes and which snakes I used. He looked down

at me and said he owned snakes and could never

have anything made from snake skin. I smiled as I

looked at him and told him, I too owned a snake

and I had no problem with making things from snake

skins. The point is no matter what material you

choose for your projects if you travel long and

far enough you will run into someone who has a

problem with your choice. You handled the situation

better than most. I can not help but think of poor

old Pam Anderson who complains constantly of

the chickens killed by KFC everyday. Yet she never

thought twice about taking the life of the poor

silicones so that she could have larger breasts.

Be thankful you did not run into one of the real

kooks who throw blood on people who wear leather

and fur coats at the fashion shows.

WINDY...user of exotic skins in non exotic ways.

[UKRay]

Any thoughts from the Senior Members here?

If senior member means 'old fart' then I guess I qualify... this is also one of my favorite rants!

You can't open a 'liberal' newspaper these days without falling over someone griping about the use of animal skin/fur/teeth or the killing of any/some/all kinds of animal. (IMHO the complainers are generally the ones who would also like to see the gun laws tightened up even further to a point where gun ownership is nigh on impossible and all kinds of hunting and fishing are under threat - I live in the UK where this has actually happened).

In my experience, these same complainers still eat meat, would kill a non-poisonous snake if they found it in their bed/shoe/wherever, swat and zap harmless bugs indescriminately (who knows what species they just wiped out?) and wear or use high quality leather shoes, belts and bags in preference to plastic. I accept some may claim to be card carrying vegetarians/vegans/pale looking weirdos but they are almost all prepared to kill if sufficiently hacked off (think 'wasp in a small room').

Reality is not generally on the complainer's agenda as it gets in the way of tunnel vision idealism.

IMHO, this issue is not necessarily about the actual physical demise of an animal and the use of its skin to make leather it is really about the death of Dumbo, Bugs Bunny or Bambi. Most animals have been anthropomorphosized to such a point that some people fail to recognise the difference between reality and Disney. You wouldn't make a Dumbo-skin briefcase would you?

I'm not sure that I wholly agree that simply looking for a Cites tag is enough to protect an endangered species, but then again, most of us don't want to use leather from endangered species anyway so the Cites tag is a darn good start. If you have any suspicion that the skin you have been offered is from an endangered species then check out this website: http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/species.shtml where you will also find out how to report a breach of the code.

Personally I work almost exclusively with cowskin, sheepskin or goatskin, but in my mind there is absolutely no difference between farmed ostrich, farmed crocodile or farmed cow when it comes to ethical use of the leather. I absolutely draw the line at using the skins of creatures that have been identified as being at risk unless they are killed as part of a controlled and regulated cull and/or come from a CITES approved source.

I have also gone on far too long... I'll shut up now!

Edited September 30, 2008 by UKRay

[JRedding]

I must be good at ignoring the kooks and the things they do, I've never heard of throwing blood on people. You'd think there would be something in the anti- handbook about using real blood.

[sodapop]

why you especially got flack over the elephant...is due for the fact that they are highly intelligent and very social/bonding creatures among other attributes they do have...much like our own in many ways...they aren't on the same intellect & social levels...as reptiles, birds and fish etc...very similar human qualities and traits is the main reason...cuz its true if you have done your research on them...

in a sense it would be like using chimpanzee or gorilla...elephants are not any different really...

personally...nope i wouldn't use elephant ever...for the reasons in the above points i made...believe them or not...even if the elephants were farmed...it is a moral thing for me...and i'm far from a PETArd ;0)

but other animals that are farmed...yes indeed i'll use them =0)

darryl

Edited September 30, 2008 by sodapop

[Billy P]

While I've never used the exotics, never had the call for them or the money to buy them, just to make whatever with. However I would not have a problem using them or don't mind anyone else using them as long as they are legally harvested. I have a lot more of a problem with the snake roundup's in the South West than I do with you using the Elephant hide or gator, croc, ostrich, or whatever. I harvest some Eastern Diamondback Rattlers at times, but only one or two at a time. I won't even make a belt with the ones that I get. It takes too much skin and I can make belt buckles and small cases and make more on the same amount of hide. I used to fish a lot of Bass tournaments with out club at work, and at some of the bigger lakes we fished there might be 4 or 5 tournaments going out of the same landing. Sometimes there would be tree huggers and pita's there in a fish costume, we mostly ignored them if we could, but when they started getting close to us we would tell them to back off and leave us alone. Down here in my part of South Carolina there was a law for a while about hunting White-tail deer, no does and only Bucks of a certain size. Now they are everywhere and are getting stunted because of not enough feed for them all. Another thing is there are probably 15 or20 cars right here in my small home town that hit deer and kill them every year. Anyway my thing is use it if you got it and if they don't like it screw em. Just my .01 worth. Billy P

[badLoveLeather]

I wanna wear a Fish Costume. What that has to do with the topic, nothing. Just throwin it out there.

[UKRay]

I wanna wear a Fish Costume. What that has to do with the topic, nothing. Just throwin it out there.

Then you just go right out there and do it!

[Drac]

if you can get the material (legally), use it. if you don't, then someone else will, and they might not make something of quality with it.

[Luke Hatley]

:wtf:

THEY MIGHT NOT BE IN ORDER ........I'VE SAID ENOUGH

[bruce johnson]

I come from a livestock background, and am just as narrow minded as anyone. Hides are a by-product, although now they call them "co-products" and animals are "harvested". I worked on the "kill floor" of a ''slaughter plant", so I guess that makes me a senior. I have no issues with animal rights people if they are informed and actually have seen the issues for themselves or might be affected. I had issues with people in San Francisco or LA, people who will never own a horse or be affected in the least, voting and telling me how I can or can't dispose of a dink horse. That was the the start and it ain't over yet. Legislated animal rights is not probably the answer to most of these issues. Ask the folks on the CA Monterey peninsula who voted to ban mountain lion control. Their dogs and semi-pet deer are being eaten in front of them now.

Most of the exotics we deal with are not endangered, and that distinction is sometimes lost on the uninformed. The non-farmed exotics covered by the CITES program may not be perfect, but it is probably closer to the bone than other systems. Our generation didn't make all this mess we are in, but I am not thinking we need to go back to ripping out fence and great buffalo herds on the plains, or things like that. World-wide the whole thing is off - prey animals with limited territory and feed, limited or too many predators, and disease due to concentration. Things got off at times without our help too. If they are managed by controlled hunting (and then utilized) to enable the rest of the species to at least maintain, I have no issues with that. If those hides are used and not fed to bacteria, bugs, and buzzards - so much the better for the by-product users and the awareness it brings.

[Bree]

I sometimes like to tie flies for fly fishing. My favorites are Atlantic Salmon Flies. They are difficult to tie, very colorful, extremely beautiful, and highly exotic in their materials and construction. One of the prime materials is the end of the neck feathers of a Jungle Cock.  It forms a little circle like an eye and the best patterns use Jungle Cock nails as cheeks near the head/eye of the hook.

There are people who tried to use photographic images of Jungle Cock nails but they are totally fake looking. Back in the '80s I used to jones for some genuine Jungle Cock feathers. Then I found a domestic source that had come into legal possession of a breeding pair and developed their own little flock of birds. They farmed them and made a limited supply of genuine and LEGAL Jungle Cock available to the fly tying community.

Back then a whole skin cost about $125. I bought one and I still have most of it. I treasure and cherish that skin and those feathers. I have the highest respect for the bird that once owned those lovely feathers. And somehow I feel that there is a lot more value to my caring for and sparingly using his feathers then having them rot shortly after the bird drops dead.

In any case, the proper farming of these exotics not only assures continued survival and strength of the species but gives to humanity wonderful artistic products that uplift and make life better. I have no problem farming exotics as I have no problem munching on a burger or some bacon.

[greg gomersall]

Exotics are neet, I have used gator on a few saddle seats. nice stuff to work with but very pricey. the nicest most unusaul stuff I have used was sealskin. I came accross a huge leporad seal skin 3 or 4 years ago and jumped thru a lot of hoops with the US Fur and Feathers dept. A 100 years ago the top of the line chaps from the west coast saddleries were sealskin. I built a set of chaps and wrist cuffs from this hide which cost me $165.00. I put another $1,600.00 worth of sterling on these chaps but it was very worth while. I sold the one of a kind chaps for $10,000.00. God I love Liberty, Freedom and Capitalism. Greg

[DCKNIVES]

I work primarily with exotics in my sheath and holster work.I buy from a legal hide dealer here and he only carries hides legally obtained and allowed by US law.I will not use anything on the endangered list.Now, I have had a few snake people raise concerns with me, but IMHO people keeping snakes as pets are removing them from the wild as well, so I don't pay much attention to them.I just ask them to call me when the snakes die so I can get the skin,lol.Dave

[Johanna]

I have met some deranged ignorant people in my leatherworking years, and you can imagine the hate mail admin gets now and then when some PETA member gets all riled up. I have had fake blood smeared on my shop windows- Jim- it wasn't the real thing, they just do it for attention. There is a section here called "leather is a byproduct of the meat industry" and that is true for 95% of the leathers we use or more. Anything else is covered by what UK Ray had to say. I lived in PA where they refused to let hunters take more deer, and they trampled the suburbs, starved and were hit by cars. It was pretty stupid, considering there were food banks lined up for the meat. PETA people are not reasonable. If you can be polite, just say, "That's an interesting assumption." and walk away. if you can't be polite, call 911 because they will get violent to "prove a point". A fur dealer had his store burned down. PETA people think they mean well, but they are often badly misinformed, and it's like they have been brainwashed. Most of them can't tell leather from plastic or vinyl or pleather either, and most of them are not vegans. So they have sweaty feet so no cows are killed for their skins while they eat a hamburger. Makes sense, huh?

Johanna

[TwinOaks]

Nothing on the endangered/protected lists. Other than that, with certain exceptions, they're fair game.

When I had a horse on my property, we had a problem with a HUGE buck challenging for territory. It was way outside of deer season, so we called the game warden. He came by to verify that we had livestock, then wrote out a permit. Point? There's a time when protected things don't have to be protected, and every living thing dies. I've got my eyes open for a monster rattlesnake at the stable where our horse is now. The size (estimated at a little over 12 feet, since it stretched across the road) makes it 'protected' according to the warden. The same warden said that if it's a danger to the horses we could dispatch it. So long as it stays up in the woods, it gets to live out its life. If it enters the pastures, well, sorry folks, I've already got somebody interested in the skin .

The OP mentioned elephant. Here's my thoughts on that: Yes, they are magnificant creatures, quite unlike anything else in the world. But if it's dead, I don't think it cares anymore. I don't support raising them just for hide harvesting, but if one dies.....peel it. Come to think of it, why don't we just go ahead an genetically rebuild some dinosaurs for hide and meat harvesting? I don't think anyone will see a T. Rex as cuddly, and I'm betting you could make a few saddles from just one hide....not to mention a few 'tooth knives', a nice pair of back scratchers, some industrial size umbrella stands, one hell of a barbeque......

Edited October 1, 2008 by TwinOaks

[tonyc1]

Nothing on the endangered/protected lists. Other than that, with certain exceptions, they're fair game.

When I had a horse on my property, we had a problem with a HUGE buck challenging for territory. It was way outside of deer season, so we called the game warden. He came by to verify that we had livestock, then wrote out a permit. Point? There's a time when protected things don't have to be protected, and every living thing dies. I've got my eyes open for a monster rattlesnake at the stable where our horse is now. The size (estimated at a little over 12 feet, since it stretched across the road) makes it 'protected' according to the warden. The same warden said that if it's a danger to the horses we could dispatch it. So long as it stays up in the woods, it gets to live out its life. If it enters the pastures, well, sorry folks, I've already got somebody interested in the skin .

The OP mentioned elephant. Here's my thoughts on that: Yes, they are magnificant creatures, quite unlike anything else in the world. But if it's dead, I don't think it cares anymore. I don't support raising them just for hide harvesting, but if one dies.....peel it. Come to think of it, why don't we just go ahead an genetically rebuild some dinosaurs for hide and meat harvesting? I don't think anyone will see a T. Rex as cuddly, and I'm betting you could make a few saddles from just one hide....not to mention a few 'tooth knives', a nice pair of back scratchers, some industrial size umbrella stands, one hell of a barbeque......

Do some rattle snakes grow that large?

Tony.

[greg gomersall]

I'm a proud member of PETA " People Eating Tastey Animals". Greg

[tonyc1]

I'm a proud member of PETA " People Eating Tastey Animals". Greg

Yeah, me too Greg!!!

[TexasJack]

My wife and I saw some movie awhile back featuring a giant snake. (Anaconda?) Of course, when it first appears there is lots of screaming and panic. She turned to me and said, "You can tell none of them are from Texas. Someone from here would be saying, 'Dang, wonder how many pairs of boots we could get from THAT sucker!!'"

Of course there is always an issue over potentially killing off a species for it's hide or feathers. It has happened in the past. But what we're really talking about is the difference between conservationists and ecofanatics. Theodore Roosevelt saw the deforestation and destruction of the Adirondacks and the over-hunting of the west. As president, he secured the immense national parks to help preserve nature. But he also was an avid hunter. He believed - and rightfully so - that we could manage the great resources of the planet, both utilizing and preserving them. What is to be gained by throwing away an elephant hide?

In fact, the most successful elephant preservation areas in Africa are allowing controlled hunting. The money - and meat - allows the local people to prosper and pays for the land for the elephant herds to survive.

Meanwhile, I see where PETA wants Ben and Jerry's to start making their ice cream with human milk. (Presumably they don't want cows to suffer the humiliation of living on a dairy farm.) These are people with too much time on their hands, too much money, and absolutely no idea about how nature actually functions.

Suggestion: When you get some fanatic that starts riding you about animal hides, tell them that you only use the hides of dead animals. (Which, of course, is true.) Then tell them that it's part of recycling nature and that you make things to honor and preserve what they were in life. Now, pick up an item with fine leather and say, "See this? I'd like you to meet my first wife....."

That should send them packing!!!

[Andy]

Badlove,

I run into this "problem" with some of the Greenies from time to time.

Explain it like this, sometimes it helps add logic to an emotional issue. "leather is the ultimate recycling, we use the hide from an animal that was dispatched for for food, without using the hide, it would go to waste" or some variant thereof. Without the meat industry, we would have VERY VERY VERY little to work with.

A majority of my customer base use my slings in Africa for hunting (and culling). Meat is used but the locals and the hunters.

Again this an emotional topic, it is difficult to change peoples minds, so just give them the data to learn what you do and why.

Andy

[Bree]

I have met some deranged ignorant people in my leatherworking years, and you can imagine the hate mail admin gets now and then when some PETA member gets all riled up. I have had fake blood smeared on my shop windows- Jim- it wasn't the real thing, they just do it for attention. There is a section here called "leather is a byproduct of the meat industry" and that is true for 95% of the leathers we use or more. Anything else is covered by what UK Ray had to say. I lived in PA where they refused to let hunters take more deer, and they trampled the suburbs, starved and were hit by cars. It was pretty stupid, considering there were food banks lined up for the meat. PETA people are not reasonable. If you can be polite, just say, "That's an interesting assumption." and walk away. if you can't be polite, call 911 because they will get violent to "prove a point". A fur dealer had his store burned down. PETA people think they mean well, but they are often badly misinformed, and it's like they have been brainwashed. Most of them can't tell leather from plastic or vinyl or pleather either, and most of them are not vegans. So they have sweaty feet so no cows are killed for their skins while they eat a hamburger. Makes sense, huh?

Johanna

You are exactly right. Most of these people are hypocrites of the first order. They consume animal flesh. They use animal parts in their attire. They use animal parts in their vehicles.

And then we get to the living plants that are killed to provide even the vegans with their daily bread. If life is so sacred to them, they shouldn't even be eating bread or vegetables. The whole thing gets to be ridiculous.

I am not in favor of abusing animals and do not support abuse. But let's face facts... nature is a cruel place. We do what we must to live and survive. That means that other living things must die that we can live. There is no other way. At least we make certain that nothing is wasted and return wonderful joyous things in our craft.

[rdb]

For me, I wouldn't use anything I wouldn't eat. I wouldn't eat dog, cat, or monkey, but that's just me. All over the planet people eat those very same things, and more. Now this either proves that the world is filled with unethical people, or ethics is very subjective. And in extreme cases, Survival will always outweigh ethics.

No matter our choices, there is always something wrong with that choice. Choosing hemp farming to replace oil products, like polyester, or nylon rope would probably do more good than harm. Among other things, it would mean more acreage would need to cultivated, thereby destroying more natural landscape. There is no free ride...

I'm pretty tired of people telling other people what's right or wrong. There isn't a one of us who knows better than the next person. The only thing we should be doing is discussing a problem, and trying to solve it together.

[Washroad]

I'm a very active member of 2 organizations; the American Sand Association (ASA) and California Off-Road Vehicles Association (CORVA).

We are very involved in trying to do something about the Endangered Species Act (ESA). It was signed into law by Richard Nixon and it's intent at the time was to help species of "importance" that were on the brink of extinction. Species at the time were the bald eagle, the California Condor, etc. Those 2 have been brought back and trust me, it was because people got involved and actually did something to help.

Since the '70's, the ESA has been broadly interpetted (I know I spelled that wrong, dammit!) to include not only the specie, but it's habitat as well.

And the way they protect them? Do nothing. Keep away. Don't go near them or their habitat.

Well, that's just plain ol' stupid and wrong.

Right now, there are about 1800 species listed as "endangered" (which is more "critical" than just "threatened"). Of all the species listed, only (this is true) .01% have been considered recovered.

The ESA doesn't work.

Groups like the Sierra Club (SC), the Southwest Center for Biological Diversity (CBD), and many others, don't want the species to recover. If a specie recovers, they lose money.

The way the ESA is written, all the SC has to do is say a specie is "threatened" or "endangered" and use the latest "science" available. Often times, there is no science or study available and they whip one out. They file suit against the Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS), the FWS goes to court, loses the case, the SC gets reimbursed for all their expenses. That means that you and me, the taxpayers of the USA, pay for these scumsuckingcamellickers to close off land and access to everyone. Then, we, the taxpayers, still have to pay for the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) or other agencey to "manage" the area.

The SC and CBD are not above lies. A particular area I'm fighting for has a plant called the Pierson's Milkvetch (PMV). The SC said there were only 1,200 of the plants left, and they only grow in one place. We, the ASA, hired a well respected botanist (that incidentally used to work for the SC) to check it out. Over the course of 5 years, he determined that the plant wasn't endangered, that it was actually thriving, and that there were over 1,800,000 of them (BLM confirmed this count).

Guess what? Because the SC "judge shopped" and found a San Francisco judge named Illston, the plant is still considered "threatened" and over 49,000 acres are closed to anyone that can't hike in on foot (you can't even ride a horse in there or take your dog for a walk in there). How stupid is that?

As a final bit on my rant, the SC did get a land development stopped in Colton, California because there was an endangered "fly" on the land. No shit. A fly.

Yeah, I'm not gonna swat one of them, ya know?

While I'm not for just going out and destroying things, animals, plant, etc., we are getting screwed.

Back to the issue of exotics......

Legally obtained, use them by all means.

Just because some group says an animal is "endangered" doesn't mean it is so.

PETA is a bunch of fanatics. They should be "culled" and their hides tanned. We could use the leather.