Newby Needs Help With Lace

[DStubb]

First off i would like to say thank you to everyone who posts a reply to this thread.

For years now i have been re-lacing baseball gloves for supplemental income and have recently decided to take the operation up a notch. This year i am planning on setting up tents at baseball tournaments, buying and restoring neglected gloves to resell, and possibly selling my own custom lacing to local shops and on the web. In the past i have always ordered my lacing from various websites and i typically pay around $3.00 -$4.00 for one 72" strip that's 1/4" wide or 3/16" wide. To do a full re-lace on a glove i typically use around 3 - 4 72" strips. I am spending around $12.00 - $16.00 in lace per glove which does not leave much room for profit when i charge $40.00 - $50.00 per glove. To save myself money and to expand my business by selling lace to other glove repair shops i am exploring the idea of making my own laces and offering around 10 different colors. Based on my calculation i can get around 80 - 90 72" strips from a 3' x 3' sheet of leather which would make my cost per strand way less that $1.00.

My question for all of you is what type of leather should i buy and what oz thickness? I was browsing the Tandy Leather store near my house and they have this http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/home/department/cowhide/99606-02.aspx at a very reasonable price. Something like that would make my cost per strand around $0.40. I want my laces to be thick and stiff like you get with high end glove models like the Wilson A2000. My second question is with how to dye these strips. I want the laces to be dyed all the way through so i assume that i will need to dip them rather than wipe all four sides. Should i dye the sheet before cutting or dye the strips after they have been cut? Colors that i want to make are natural tan, black, white, red, royal blue, green, purple, orange, pink, yellow, orange, and possibly a tie dye. Has anyone ever dip dyed an entire hyde?

[GrampaJoel]

For high end repair on a small scale try this leather. -->> http://www.sheridanleather.com/Indian_Tan_p/ind-tan.htm

I don't know how it will take a die, but you would want to die it after you make your final cuts.

Joel

[DStubb]

For high end repair on a small scale try this leather. -->> http://www.sheridanl...n_p/ind-tan.htm

I don't know how it will take a die, but you would want to die it after you make your final cuts.

Joel

Wow that price though. The only way i would make my own lace is if i could get the hide under $50.00. I know Latigo is a popular choice for baeball laces but it's so dang expensive. Would a leather like the one i put in the link hold up to the elements like latigo?

[DStubb]

Wow sorry for moving my thread to the top. And FYI TXAG i don't move it to the top every couple of hours. I did it one time and i apologize for ruining your day by doing it.

Edited February 6, 2014 by DStubb

[cem]

I repair sports goods but as baseball isn't that big where I am I only know a little bit about the gloves and usually pass on them when they come in but I'll help where I can. I can say though I've never seen the lacing done in straight vegetable tan which is what your link is.

The trouble I can see with dyeing it in thin strips is it might shrink and become extremely stiff I see you want the lacing to be stiff but with cheap veg tan it's likely to crack as well if it's not conditioned properly with some sort of oil then you will need to put a final finish on it as well as the dye may bleed if the leather surrounding it becomes damp sweaty or wet (not sure if you guys play when it's raining, cricket gets stopped here if it's heavy).

Dip dyeing the whole hide might be possible but your going to need a large area to do it in, it's going to be messy and your still likely to have the stiffness and dye bleeding problem. With the strips and whole hide dyeing your also going to have a fairly increased labour time it's not going to be a quick process you might be looking at 2-3 days before the lace is ready to be used on a glove. There is also the cost of the dye,conditioner and finish as well as consumables like gloves, drying racks, containers etc to consider.

I think this is probably why latigo is used as glove lacing as your not going to run into these problems with it, have you looked into buying directly from a tannery or buying it in spools instead of cut strips. I came across this place http://www.buyfastpitchgloves.com/glovecare/bulklace.html they seem to do quite a few colours so might be worth checking out for that option until you can locate a tannery.

[DStubb]

After searching and searching online i have come to the conclusion that the high end laces are made from Alum or Chrome tanned hides. Are these types of hides on the expensive side?

[DStubb]

I repair sports goods but as baseball isn't that big where I am I only know a little bit about the gloves and usually pass on them when they come in but I'll help where I can. I can say though I've never seen the lacing done in straight vegetable tan which is what your link is.

The trouble I can see with dyeing it in thin strips is it might shrink and become extremely stiff I see you want the lacing to be stiff but with cheap veg tan it's likely to crack as well if it's not conditioned properly with some sort of oil then you will need to put a final finish on it as well as the dye may bleed if the leather surrounding it becomes damp sweaty or wet (not sure if you guys play when it's raining, cricket gets stopped here if it's heavy).

Dip dyeing the whole hide might be possible but your going to need a large area to do it in, it's going to be messy and your still likely to have the stiffness and dye bleeding problem. With the strips and whole hide dyeing your also going to have a fairly increased labour time it's not going to be a quick process you might be looking at 2-3 days before the lace is ready to be used on a glove. There is also the cost of the dye,conditioner and finish as well as consumables like gloves, drying racks, containers etc to consider.

I think this is probably why latigo is used as glove lacing as your not going to run into these problems with it, have you looked into buying directly from a tannery or buying it in spools instead of cut strips. I came across this place http://www.buyfastpi...lace.html they seem to do quite a few colours so might be worth checking out for that option until you can locate a tannery.

Thanks for the advice i guess i will have to abandon that idea. Yes we play baseball in the rain as long as there is no lightning or downpour. I did find a tannery near where i live who makes chrome tanned leather lacing in a variety of colors but the minimum order is 100 laces per color. If i were to buy from them i would be paying around $2.00 per lace which is better than my previous prices but i still want to find a way to get my cost around $0.50 per lace.

[GrampaJoel]

If you want a high end result you 'have' to use high end materials. It's as simple as that.

I think you need to learn your leather types before spending any money.

The link to the Tandy 'shoulder skirting leather' proves you don't know your different leather types.

Alum, chrome, veg, oil tan, hot stuffed tanned, harness, bridle, or what have you, etc... are all different types of leather curing styles. Each style has it's intended uses.

Save yourself some waisted money, and learn what the different types off cured, processed, i.e. tanned leather is all about.

Listen to what folks tell you here, and then try it for yourself.

Leather working can be a very expensive venture,and I believe everyone here will confirm that.

I'm not saying give up, but go forth with your eyes and mind, and your pocketbook open.

Joel

[DStubb]

If you want a high end result you 'have' to use high end materials. It's as simple as that.

I think you need to learn your leather types before spending any money.

The link to the Tandy 'shoulder skirting leather' proves you don't know your different leather types.

Alum, chrome, veg, oil tan, hot stuffed tanned, harness, bridle, or what have you, etc... are all different types of leather curing styles. Each style has it's intended uses.

Save yourself some waisted money, and learn what the different types off cured, processed, i.e. tanned leather is all about.

Listen to what folks tell you here, and then try it for yourself.

Leather working can be a very expensive venture,and I believe everyone here will confirm that.

I'm not saying give up, but go forth with your eyes and mind, and your pocketbook open.

Joel

Yes i know nothing about leather and that's why i came here. I have been trying to learn as much as i can the last few days but there really isn't much useful information online regarding leathers used for baseball lacing. I'm not planning on building my own leather gloves, wallets or belts just trying to find out what the best leather would be for cutting some simple laces. If i am able to find the right leather at the right price then i will be bugging all of you about the dyeing process. I have watched a couple videos on how to alum tan hides but they were tanning rabbits and bobcat furs. They basically were just using two gallons water, one cup alum (purchased in the canning section at the supermarket), and one cup non iodized salt. They let it soak for about a week, hung it up to dry, and then stretched it. Could i simply just repeat that process on a cheap veg tan hide?

[GrampaJoel]

Ah, I don't think what you are suggesting would work. But hey it would be a learning experience.

Cheap hides are tanned the same way expensive hides are. The cheap hide are because of the defects in the hide itself.

Not the tanning process.

Here's a thought.

If you have a Tandy store near you go talk to the manager about their hides. Let the manager show you and tell you the differences in person. That way you can look and feel the different kinds of leather they handle. I'll wager that most people,,, including myself, first started learning about the different kinds of leather this way.

There is nothing like a in person, hands on , for learning.

If you don't have a store near you than I guess you just have to keep asking us till you get the answer you need.

I don't mind sharing what I know, and most here don't either.

But nothing we say will help you get the feel of the leather you are seeking.

Joel

Edited February 6, 2014 by GrampaJoel

[DStubb]

Cheap hides are tanned the same way expensive hides are. The cheap hide are because of the defects in the hide itself.

Not the tanning process.

Here's a thought.

If you have a Tandy store near you go talk to the manager about their hides. Let the manager show you and tell you the differences in person. That way you can look and feel the different kinds of leather they handle. I'll wager that most people,,, including myself, first started learning about the different kinds of leather this way.

There is nothing like a in person, hands on , for learning.

If you don't have a store near you than I guess you just have to keep asking us till you get the answer you need.

I don't mind sharing what I know, and most here don't either.

But nothing we say will help you get the feel of the leather you are seeking.

Joel

It's funny you say that Joel because i just got home from Tandy and i did exactly as you said. I took some high quality lace with me for them to see and they said that it looked like latigo to them but they weren't positive. We talked about possibly using the cheap economy grade veg tan leathers that they carry and they seemed to think that i wouldnt have any problems with it as long as i used a sealer after the dyeing process. They even cut me a piece of lace from some 5 oz scrap and i must say that it does have a nice feel and look. The one thing i dont like is that the back side is pretty rough, is there a way to sand or smooth out the back side of leather? And thanks for help btw.

[GrampaJoel]

I sand the backsides of my veg tanned leather to get a smoother more refined look and feel. I use a belt sander, and hand sanding with a wood block will work just as well. 600 grit paper.

Wear a mask, don't breath the leather dust! Very hazardous!!

.

I'm glad you made the trip to the Tandy store.

Now look at some of the leather sponsors on this forum. These leather dealers are the real deal. Tandy is ok to get started with but they are just the craft grade stuff mostly.

Btw, veg tanned leather is generally not as strong as latigo leather.

Joel

Edited February 6, 2014 by GrampaJoel

[Chris B]

Could you possibly post a picture of the lace you use? Maybe some one here would be able to identify it for you.

Chris

[DStubb]

These are the same laces that i have been using. I would actually prefer a little thicker.

This is a better image.

[cem]

Ah ok most likely alum or chrome bit hard to tell without actually seeing it in person.

One question what section of the market do you predominantly want to cater to high end (ie those who spend a lot on their gloves), kids, weekend warriors etc. I'm asking this because if you want to cater to the high end market and they find out you are using cheap veg tan lacing on their high end gloves it's not going to go down well especially if the dye bleeds, kids or the weekend warriors it's probably not going to matter so much.

As you want to expand I would probably stay away from Tandy like Grandpa Joel I agree there mostly for craft grade stuff and after doing some more searching around I can't find anywhere that would recommend veg tan for lacing baseball gloves as a business it's just not the type used for them.

I'm not sure where you are in the US but heres a tannery who seems to specialize in what you want http://www.tntanning...g...ndex.html

even if they can't supply they would be able to give a better idea of the leather tanning characteristics you need.

Edited February 7, 2014 by cem

[GrampaJoel]

Here this link works -->> http://www.tntanningcompany.com/projects.html

[DStubb]

Ah ok most likely alum or chrome bit hard to tell without actually seeing it in person.

One question what section of the market do you predominantly want to cater to high end (ie those who spend a lot on their gloves), kids, weekend warriors etc. I'm asking this because if you want to cater to the high end market and they find out you are using cheap veg tan lacing on their high end gloves it's not going to go down well especially if the dye bleeds, kids or the weekend warriors it's probably not going to matter so much.

As you want to expand I would probably stay away from Tandy like Grandpa Joel I agree there mostly for craft grade stuff and after doing some more searching around I can't find anywhere that would recommend veg tan for lacing baseball gloves as a business it's just not the type used for them.

I'm not sure where you are in the US but heres a tannery who seems to specialize in what you want http://www.tntanning...g...ndex.html

even if they can't supply they would be able to give a better idea of the leather tanning characteristics you need.

I guess the high end market would be the other glove repair people that i would like to supply lace to. And yes i do not want to provide a cheap product that's advertised as top quality. Right now glove repair people are paying between $3 - $5 for one 72" piece of lace. If i could somehow find a quality product at a decent price i could make up to $2.50 - $4.50 per single strand sold. Those are huge profits when you consider that a glove repair man will need at least 3 - 4 strands just to re-lace one single glove. I would think that most shops and repair men would be ordering 50-300 strands per order. I have used so many laces from so many different suppliers and i must say that the sample i had cut today seems like the perfect lace. Of course there are those questions as to how will it dye, will it become brittle, will it bleed, will it hold up to the conditions. Who knows and only time will tell, and if it doesn't then i will start over from the ground up and try the next best thing. I'm in this to make money and if the only way for me to make a quality lace is by spending $150 - $200 on a single hide then it won't work. Even if i need to learn to tan the leathers myself from my basement or garage then i'll explore it. There really is quite a bit of money to be made. I'm a graphic/web designer by trade and i know that i could really market these things well, i just need to crack the code on how to achieve a quality lace at low cost.

[DStubb]

Here this link works -->> http://www.tntanning...m/projects.html

Yep looks like alum tanned leathers are the popular choice for laces and chrome tanned for the actual glove construction. Man i sure wish you could go cow hunt'n like you can with deer lol. Speaking of which i tossed away four deer hides this season, are there people on here interested in putting them to use next year? I usually fill all my deer tags here in Ohio.

[cem]

Sorry about the links not working I've been replying from my iPad which I normally don't do so I'm not sure what is going on.

Yep I agree looks like there is money to be made if you can pull it off, I've come from a graphic design background myself and marketing it right would have you on to a winner the trouble is leather is an expensive product compared to synthetic stuff and there is no getting around that. Directly working with a tannery to get the quantity it sounds like you want to use is likely going to be your best bet.

Not to put a dampener on your enthusiasm to get started but to begin with you might find it beneficial to learn about the different leather tannages as I'm not sure at the moment that you quite understand the complexity of it ie your not going to be able to do alum or chrome tanning in your basement due to the types of chemicals used.