Skirts

[Echo4V]

I have seen a lot of old saddles and they all seem to have smaller skirts than is normal for modern saddles. Especially the older gaited saddles like Buena Vistas they really don't even have skirts just covered bars.

I would be curious to know what you folks think about skirts and how small is too small?

If someone built skirts to the shape of the bars but maybe 2 inches bigger all the way around would that be detrimental?

What do the skirts do but keep sweat off the rider and look good?

When it comes to padding skirts what is the benefit of shearling over the felted wool (like Don 101 used on his half seat saddle)?

[Echo4V]

I can't believe no one has an opinion on this...

[bruce johnson]

To get the easier one for me out of the way first. I use woolskins. Haven't ever used felt, but would have to question some of the reasons for it. I know it was used for either supply issues (war rationing when wool was going into war production) or cost issues on lower end saddles for the most part. Not sure how much of history it has ever had.

Skirts have a few functions. One factor that is sometimes overlooked is the protection from rigging hardware and distribution of pressures of the riggings, latigos, and billets. One of those things that matching the right hardware with rigging type and skirt size and plugging would all be inter-related. No defintie answer to just skirt size without considering the other factors in play there.

[TroyWest]

I was talking with Don King one time and he made the comment that a saddle does'nt have to have skirts. Remember the old McClellands? Leather sewn right next to the bars top and bottom with no ground seat. Bob Douglas and I were talking about stripping a saddle down to be light weight and he sent me a picture of the saddle he rides. It's a tree with a ground seat, a small set of skirts that are about an inch bigger than the bars, about a 1-1/4 inch strap that goes thru the gullet and back down to an o-ring rig front rigging ring and a set of stirrup leathers and fenders. Nothing but rawhide showing on the swell and horn, and cantle back, on a wade tree. It did have an o-ring back rig as well. Pretty light weight stripped down model.

If you built your skirts 2" bigger than the bars it wouldn't hurt. Remember, pack saddles don't have skirts at all either.

Higher quality saddles do have skirts and are lined with woolskins which can help relieve pressure from riggings as Bruce mentioned. Some guys do build very stiff skirts to distribute pressure but I think a well fitted bar is the best foundation for weight distribution.

I have seen some high end reiners with a layer of dense foam under the skirts and lined with chap leather in place of woolskins. The guys that had 'em seemed to get along O.K. I dont know about long term.

A saddle shop much further south of me here in Tx. close to the coast had a problem with some bug getting in the wool and eating the wool off the skirts. Had to replace the wool so frequently they stopped using it and used felt exclusively.

A lot of those saddles came into our shop and my brother replaced the felt on some of those old saddles.

[Timbo]

This thread reminds me of one of my all time favorite saddles. It is pretty minimal but I like it and aspire to build one like it someday. If anyone knows who made it please let me know, cause for the life of me I cannot remember where I got the pic.

But it is pretty simple with small skirts and unique rigging.

Tim

Edited October 9, 2008 by Timbo

[okiwen]

Wow, I thought, now we're talking! I was going to say "just long enough to cover her butt" but when I started to read, you all were talking about saddles. I guess I'll look for another thread.

[bruce johnson]

Troy,

I guess those bugs are pretty common around the gulf coast area. I have had other guys tell me they use synthetic woolskins for that same reason. The weevils or whatever they are don't bother synthetics apparently.

I kind of remember a pleasure/reining horse trainer from the southeast, maybe Georgia promoting the foam lined saddles at the QH Congress in the late 70s. I got to take apart one of the foam lined saddles a while back. I want to say it was from Denny Sargeant or Pard's. This particular saddle had been through a few tack sales and finally a buyer noticed it was loose and wanted to see what was up with it. The fork was loose at the base. He opted for me to remove the silver for him, and just throw it away and learned "when a deal looks to good to be true...". I took off the bottom lining for grins. The foam was starting to crumble and powder in spots, much like some of the seat foams or the firmer foam in some splint and bell boots. Probably not much difference than woolskins that start to wear at pressure spots and get thin.

[daviD A Morris]

Just to add to everything that Bruce has said:

IMHO, the skirts also help keep the saddle pad or blanket in place. Many times I have just put a rigging on a tree and a pair of stirrup leathers and stirrups, and riden arround in this. The purpose has been to try out varying rigging possitions, and various trees on a variety of horses. And I can say that without skirts the saddle blankets just shoot right out the back, on every one, regardless of pad type, rigging positon, or tree. So what I have taken to doing is just make sure the rigging (what ever type D or flat plate) has just a little overhang at the top front where hte bar meets the front lip of the fork. Then I just put one stitch on each side throught the pad and the leather.

dam

[Echo4V]

Timbo, I'm not positive this is exactly the same saddle but here ya go

http://www.saddlemaker.com/1872.html

Bruce--as far as the skirts distributing the pressure from the rigging. I have seen a lot of old saddles that never had skirts under the rigging, look at the buena vista style plantation saddles for example.

TroyWest--The saddle you are describing is exactly what I have been thinking about building. I get a lot of short backed horses to ride and the big skirts that are common now a days tend to rub against hips. Especially young walking horses ( which is what I ride and therefor what I start the most of) that tend to have bonier hips than quarter horses anyway.

D-A-M--I think the reason for your blankets sliding was the lack of leather not the lack of skirts. As has been pointed out McClellans had no skirts and blankets stayed under them. A lot of the old gaited saddles also didn't have skirts. My wife rides a buena vista on her walkaloosa( it just has the bars covered and stuffed with wool like an english saddle or australian saddle) and we don't have problems with the blanket sliding.

As far as the shearling vs felt I had just noticed a lot of production saddles with the felt lately and when I got to looking I noticed it used to be offered a lot on saddles in the early 1900's

Also, I just wanted to say I appreciate all the answers to my questions. You guys are great.

David

[daviD A Morris]

D-A-M--I think the reason for your blankets sliding was the lack of leather not the lack of skirts. As has been pointed out McClellans had no skirts and blankets stayed under them. A lot of the old gaited saddles also didn't have skirts. My wife rides a buena vista on her walkaloosa( it just has the bars covered and stuffed with wool like an english saddle or australian saddle) and we don't have problems with the blanket sliding.

David

Yeh, since Troy mentioned the McClellans earlier I've been thinking about that too. I woudn't have thought that smooth-out leather on the bottoms of the McClellans would have given any more grip to a saddle pad than the rawhide on the bottom of a saddle tree. So I wonder why they always slip-out when I tried it. As I said, it has happened with a number or different Navajos and felt pads, a variety of trees and quite a few rigging positons and combinations of all of the above. What kind of saddle-blanket did the cavalry use? One day I will try covering the bottoms of the bars with just leather like a McClellan and see if that makes a difference.

Thanks

dam

Edited October 9, 2008 by daviD A Morris

[Blake]

David

Some of the later model McClellans actually had sheepskin. The blankets were a high quality woven wool usually two layers thick sewed together.

A lot of the modern felt blankets and pads also have a percentage of synthetic fiber included which can add to the instability. A true 100% wool felt pad is pretty expensive .Even the wool felt pads will vary from pressed rag felt to high quality needled or woven felt.

The Pads/blankets were dampened before saddling according to information gleaned from an old field manual. I suppose this was to set the blanket so that it didn't slip.

Blake

[AndyKnight]

to my way of thinking the function of the sheep skin on the skirts is to help hold the blankets/pads. I have built lots of saddles with foam covered with rough out chap leather. They work very well until the sweat starts to cause the leather to slick off. Then the pads want to spit out the back. Sand paper helps some. I have had it in mind to try one with smoothout glove tan type leather. however there would need to be away to attach the pads similar to an english saddle. ( velcro)The advantage is that you don't get crap sticking to your wool .eg. pine needles and twigs.

Bottom line is that I still recommend Sheepskin for longevity unless you get the bugs! Small skirts will work well.

Bare rawhide is especially slick which may explain having trouble keeping a pad under them.

I will quit rambling...

[mulefool]

I got a tree to build a saddle on for my mule. I've been busy and haven't had the time to work on it so I got the ground seat and a rigging on it, pulled some stirrup leathers from my old saddle and have been riding it that way for 2 years. It's kind of embarrassing for a saddlemaker to be riding a saddle like that, but the problem is, it's been working really well that way. if it wasn't, I'm sure I would find some time to make it work. It's sure nice to throw up there, it probably only weighs maybe 15 pounds I suppose. Anyway this winter I'm going to get it respectable looking, but I'll probably just put some pretty small skirts on it.

[Echo4V]

Mule fool- I would like to see a picture of that. I have wondered, ever since seeing my first McClellan, why skirts are needed and how a saddle would work without them.

[daviD A Morris]

The Pads/blankets were dampened before saddling according to information gleaned from an old field manual. I suppose this was to set the blanket so that it didn't slip.

Blake

Blake,

That is interesting. I noticed when I was in Argentina that the lomillo style saddles had a definite indenation in the felt pads under the lomillo (tree). At the time I didn't think to ask if that came about from use or was built in when making it. When I find a photo I will post it here.

One of the pads that I used was 1" pure felt. about $140 worth of felt.

Thanks

dam

[Timbo]

Just so's ya know........I found some wool felt. Comes in different percentages of wool too. I didn't price the 95% wool as it only came in white. But I did price the 87% wool felt which comes in a light grey color. It comes in all thicknesses, but I got a quote for the 3/4" thick stuff. One yard (which is the minimum) by 72" is $164.36. Wow. Can buy 2 sheep for that price.

The same thing in a polyester synthetic pad but is 66" by one yard is $26.55 which is way more reasonable but it is still poly. But according to there website it performs better in equestrian use than does wool.

So there ya go..........if anybody was wondering.

By the way the website I am looking at is http://www.aetnafelt.com/index.htm

Tim

[colttrainer]

Just to continue this topic further, what is the purpose of the felt or wool lining. I have packed many a horse in the mountains and the trees or bar and sit on a good quality pad. Call me stupid but I don't see the need.

Al

[jefpainthorse]

older pattern MCClelland saddles... Cav troopers used their bed blankets folded in quarters for a saddle pad... that a pretty big footprint and I figure than amount of contact gives enough friction to keep the blanket from slipping.

Skirts in general... small skirts save weight... and scalloped skirts offer a bit more contact so some horsemen prefer them...

I like a generous skirt.. but my horses are big....small skirts look like a pony saddle is on my paint.

[nobearsyet]

At the risk of running this thread off on a small tangent I have wondered on numerous occassions if you had a good fitting saddle (read that as a custom tree fitted to your horse) and made the wool lining slightly bigger than the skirts so it hangs out all the way aroung the skirt if you really even need a pad at all. I haven't tried it but I can't see where you 'd end up with any big bloody sores from a small skirt and about 1" or s oof sheepskin sticking out all the way around. Anyone else care to chime in on this one?

[AndyKnight]

no matter how well the saddle fits you still need good padding. The saddle is rigid so you need to give the horse some room to move under the saddle.and to also absorb some of the shock. this is accomplished with the padding. Sheepskin ,once compressed provides very little padding. IMHO

Edited May 10, 2009 by AndyKnight

[nobearsyet]

Settles that then doesn't it. The thought still roams about in my head as to figure out a saddle that doesn't take a pad as it seems to me there would be a certain convenience factor to it.