Fil Au Chinois Thread Problems

[Cletus2014]

I'm learning a little more every day and with practice, my stitching is improving nicely. So far I've mostly been doing very simple projects to get stitching practice, with the goal of working my way up to making high quality leather watch straps with fine, detailed stitching. In anticipation of this, I bought an expensive spool of Chinois Lin Cable 432 from Fine Leatherworking because I understand this is the "best" thread available. So far I absolutely hate it and can't manage anything even close to a decent stitch with this thread!

Until I got the fancy French thread, I've been using heavily waxed linen (or maybe polyester?) which is probably 3-ply or 4-ply and stitching around 6-7 spi. I've been happy with the results I've been getting, but I thought this to be a bit heavy for a watch strap. I was hoping the Chinois thread in 432 size, which is only one size away from their largest of 332, would be only very slightly smaller than I've been using and perfect for 9spi. I have a set of 9spi Chinese diamond pricking irons, (which are no Vergaz Blanchard), but don't seem too bad either, that I also bought in anticipation of using for watch straps.

Now that I've started working with the Chinois thread, I cannot for the life of me manage to get a straight, even stitch line. At 9 spi, which didn't seem all that fine to me, the teeniest tiniest little error in stitch alignment becomes a glaring flaw on the piece. Also, the Chinois thread seems almost brittle compared to the waxed linen I'm used to and doesn't seem to have the friction to "bite" and stay tight when the stitch is pulled. Not as bad as slippery nylon, but even after running through some beeswax it still takes some effort to keep it tight for the next stitch. I'm also stumped as to how I'm supposed to lock the backstitching when I come to the end of the stitch line. The waxed thread stays tight where you cut it, but this stuff looks like it will start to unravel if I just cut it without gluing it or something. How do you lock your backstitches with this thread?

Is this one of these things that are just difficult to do at first, but will reward my patience and practice to learn properly? I really thought I was getting the hang of saddle stitching until I tried this thread. Now I feel like I'm starting all over again.

Anyone have any comments, or comparison between the Chinois thread and ordinary waxed linen for saddle stitching? Maybe I would have better luck with the larger 332 at 9 spi? It appeared from the stitch size mock-up photo on Fine Leatherworking that 432 would be perfect for what I'm doing, but after trying it I'm not so sure.

[LTC]

have you seen this...

and this...

what type of awl are you using to make your holes after you use the pricking iron? how far are you pushing the awl through? are you creating the overhand knot as Nigel demonstrates in the second video?

if that thread tends to want to loosen on you after you pull it taut, maybe your holes are too big or the thread too small...

you could always try putting in an extra overhand knot, similar to how the surgeon's knot is made. it creates more tension so the knot will have less of a tendency to come undone while you're doing the next stitch...

Edited May 15, 2014 by LTC

[DavidL]

For this type of thread you to have be delicate w/ it.
Thicker threads are easier to use, however Chinois will give a more refined look.

From your description your awl may be too large, your leather may be difficult to use, pricking iron, your technique, only you will know really. A picture would be helpful..

In my opinion 532 at 9 SPI is too large. 532 at 7 SPI is fine and 432 at 7 SPI is standard for the European type leatherwork, where american work use larger thread in general, w/ exception to 12+ spi work on older items.

[9tpi]

To be honest i only use Fil Au Chinois. I refuse to drink the Tiger Thread Kool-aid that's being served up lately. Tiger thread (and other poly/nylon threads) tends to hide a lot of technique related mistakes. Like others have said in other threads consistency is KEY! How you hold the awl, how far you push it into the leather, the angle you push it through and even if being centered in your pricked hole is important and must be the same every time.

if any of these things change it will for sure create an uneven stitch and look funky.

i use 432 with 9spi iron and it works and looks good to me when working on bags and cases. 435 might be a little thick for a watch strap, however.

It's all relative to the leather thickness too. you wouldn't use 632/832 on a 8oz bridle leather brief case. so for a thin 3oz watch strap you may want to look into 632.

My $0.02

[Matt T]

Those chinese irons have a different shape to them; more like a diamond shape. If you're serious about this, you should get vergez or dixon. Also, at 9SPI I think 432 is a little large - I don't think that is your main problem though; it's probably your technique, as others have noted.

[Cletus2014]

I will post a few photos later, when I can get to some samples of my stitching with this thread. Everyone keeps saying the 432 at 9spi is too large, but it sure doesn't look that way to me, it looks too small, by a lot! I wonder if my pricking irons aren't what I think they are? Basically, I just did a stitch line and measured the stitches per inch with a ruler - it was 9, hence 9spi. I can't imagine there's another way to look at that?

Anyway, later on I'll post a couple pics of what I have so far and maybe that will shed some light on this. I'm sure it's just me not knowing what I'm doing, it's frustrating because I'm not getting anything like what I was expecting. Thanks for your comments.

[mrtreat32]

Im new to leather working but I ordered both tiger thread and fil au chinois.

After first using the tiger thread it does feel strange and seem a bit weird to work with. I have been going back and forth between the two brands and not sure what I prefer so far

I have a much harder time threading the fil au chinois and sometimes when I tie the knot on the end it seems to fray a bit. The tiger thread ties smooth every time. Both seem to have benefits and drawbacks. The fil au chinois is round so it doesn't twist and lay at weird angles like I sometimes get with the tiger thread and I never pierce it while sewing by accident which I have done multiple times with the Tiger.

On the other hand I like the way the tiger thread feels in my hands better when Im working with it.

I am also using the 432 at 9spi and I don't find that it looks too big.(Im mostly making wallets and accessories at the moment) But for a watch strap I would go thinner based on my preference. I could be wrong but I think sewing at a higher spi is harder..or at least that has been my experience so far. I started the first week doing mostly 7spi and after switching to 9spi it seems less forgiving to small errors. I would love to hear what others have to say as well.

[DavidL]

Cletus, try all the different size threads from other brands.

If you want professional results you should have the proper tools, the chinese pricking iron is your weakest link.

Work at it for a while and it should come together.

[Hi Im Joe]

Cletus, try all the different size threads from other brands.

If you want professional results you should have the proper tools, the chinese pricking iron is your weakest link.

Work at it for a while and it should come together.

I disagree with this. Diamond shaped holes are diamond shaped holes. There are a bunch of other ways to screw it up. So just saying its not the right tools doesn't really offer a solution.

[DavidL]

I agree with what your saying. However, a certain tool will limit your ability to do a certain task. For instance I use to ride a regular bicycleand now I enjoy riding on trails. The Bike worked great until I took it on the trails, so I invested in a proper mountain bike and it suited better. The same goes with the tools you use in leather working, especially hand stitching since it requires precision. The chinese pricking irons I seen are wide diamond shaped holes and european or british irons are thin slants. I never dealt with the chinese pricking irons, the japanese ones I have used and are very similar and the holes open up too large in my experience.

80 percent of the end results does come from skill. If you don't have a razer sharp awl, properly aligned pricking iron, it makes it more difficult, every tiny change in tools changes the stitch. Larger awls, create larger gaps in-between stitches and so on.

Ease of use for beginners is why I recommended him to upgrade certain tools. He wouldn't have to wonder if the reason he's not getting the proper stitch is because of the tools. That shouldn't be misunderstood as to buy the tool and the problem will be solved.

Edited May 16, 2014 by DavidL

[Cletus2014]

Here's a photo comparing stitching I've done. The smaller, crookedy line is the Chinois 432 thread at ~9spi, the better straighter line is with 3 or 4 ply waxed linen at ~7spi. To me there's a dramatic difference both in the size and "fineness" of the stitching and the larger thread - which really isn't all that large - look far better for the spi size than the Chinois to me.

I can't imagine using an even smaller thread than the 432 and if this sample is any indication, I would only try the larger 332 if I even try Chinois again at all.

What do you think?

[DavidL]

top row is western style stitching, thicker and straight.

Bottom row is european style stitching that is harder to master. the stitch should touch from one end of the slit to the other, in this case bottom left hole to top right hole if you stitch towards your body.

Both give different looks.

Edited May 16, 2014 by DavidL

[mrtreat32]

is the top row set in a groove? Did you use a pricking iron for both?

I made a black wallet tonight with black fil au chinois thread which is a blessing and a curse since I cant tell very easily how the stitching came out since their isnt any contrast. But when I look closely under the light Its definitely a bit all over the place.

[Cletus2014]

David -

Yes, I agree with your comments about the different styles of stitch, but really there's no variation in the way I do it - I'm nowhere near that skilled yet! I did use a pricking iron in both cases, but no groove and I stitch with the work clamped in a pony and stitch toward myself. I push the awl through, then the backside needle, then the front side needle under and ahead of the other and pull tight. I watched the Hermes saddle stitch video a couple time and trying to emulate that technique. IOW, mark the stitch lines lightly with an iron, then push a sharp awl through each mark as I go, stitching toward myself. I keep the awl at about a 45deg angle to the edge of the work. In both cases, the front side stitching line comes out straight, or end to end and I get the angled pattern on the backside.

Here are two watch straps made last night and tonight. Last night's was using the Chinois thread and 9spi punch marks, tonight's was using the waxed thread and 7spi. No groove, lightly hammered flat after stitching. I like the strap I made tonight much better than the one with the Chinois threads and not only because the stitching is neater. The larger thread and stitch count just looks better proportioned to me for the size of the project. This is pretty much the crux of the issues I'm having with this Chinois thread. Even the 432 looks very small and fine to me, yet others are saying even finer thread should be used for a project like this. I just don't understand.

Let me know what you think....

[Cletus2014]

is the top row set in a groove? Did you use a pricking iron for both?

I made a black wallet tonight with black fil au chinois thread which is a blessing and a curse since I cant tell very easily how the stitching came out since their isnt any contrast. But when I look closely under the light Its definitely a bit all over the place.

Hi mrtreat32 - No, in this case I did not make a groove and I've generally found that I don't need one, as I continue to get better at stitching. I still have a ways to go yet!

I do use a couple cheap pricking irons, but only to make an impression on the front side to mark where my awl should go through. I'm getting a little better at stabbing the holes and getting them straight on the backside too, but it's only after some practice - muscle memory I guess. I'm contemplating shelling out a couple hundred on a set of Blanchard irons, but I'm not quite ready to take that plunge yet.

[LTC]

Here are two watch straps made last night and tonight. Last night's was using the Chinois thread and 9spi punch marks, tonight's was using the waxed thread and 7spi. No groove, lightly hammered flat after stitching. I like the strap I made tonight much better than the one with the Chinois threads and not only because the stitching is neater. The larger thread and stitch count just looks better proportioned to me for the size of the project. This is pretty much the crux of the issues I'm having with this Chinois thread. Even the 432 looks very small and fine to me, yet others are saying even finer thread should be used for a project like this. I just don't understand.

Let me know what you think....

have you watched Nigel's saddle stitching videos i posted links to earlier in this thread yet? your stitching is inconsistent in some places...it looks like you are not stitching the exact same way with every stitch. that is why some stitches look a little out of place.

what size awl blade are you using?

all high quality, professionally made watch bands i've seen are made with smaller thread, so smaller thread and higher SPI looks better to me, but that's just personal preference.

Edited May 16, 2014 by LTC

[Macca]

Have a look at these

Charlie does some beautiful work !

532 & 632 Lin Cable

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=50768

[mrtreat32]

David -

Yes, I agree with your comments about the different styles of stitch, but really there's no variation in the way I do it - I'm nowhere near that skilled yet! I did use a pricking iron in both cases, but no groove and I stitch with the work clamped in a pony and stitch toward myself. I push the awl through, then the backside needle, then the front side needle under and ahead of the other and pull tight. I watched the Hermes saddle stitch video a couple time and trying to emulate that technique. IOW, mark the stitch lines lightly with an iron, then push a sharp awl through each mark as I go, stitching toward myself. I keep the awl at about a 45deg angle to the edge of the work. In both cases, the front side stitching line comes out straight, or end to end and I get the angled pattern on the backside.

Here are two watch straps made last night and tonight. Last night's was using the Chinois thread and 9spi punch marks, tonight's was using the waxed thread and 7spi. No groove, lightly hammered flat after stitching. I like the strap I made tonight much better than the one with the Chinois threads and not only because the stitching is neater. The larger thread and stitch count just looks better proportioned to me for the size of the project. This is pretty much the crux of the issues I'm having with this Chinois thread. Even the 432 looks very small and fine to me, yet others are saying even finer thread should be used for a project like this. I just don't understand.

Let me know what you think....

Both straps.jpeg Chinois Strap.jpeg Linen Strap.jpeg

I personally like the look of the smaller stitches on these. I think you may be swayed a bit by the larger stitch coming out much cleaner as I almost was. But if both came out equal I think the smaller stitch would look a little more sleek.

I work as a chef and I think one way of looking at it is. Most people at home when cutting vegetables for soup and other dishes use larger more rustic cut based on skill level which is fine but I think people in the industry look at smaller precise cuts as a sign of craftsmanship and detail. Maybe that doesnt make sense haha. but after awhile you would look at the larger size and find it to be a more rustic and less refined look.

I too use the 432 and cant imagine moving to a smaller size yet either. A lot of people on here use .8mm tiger thread for small items and that is much larger so I guess its a matter of preference.

I have read conflicting information about the use of pricking irons. Some people say they are strictly used just to mark the holes for your awl. But since having the vergez pricking iron for a week or so I have messed around with different methods and I get better results punching it all the way through. This is how they do it on the fineleatherworking tutorial as well.

This guarantees that the back hole is straight with the front as long as you hammer it relatively straight. When I used it just to mark the holes I would sometimes have my awl coming out a bit crooked on the back. I dont see the negative to punching all the way through provided Im using a protective piece of leather underneath to protect the iron. If someone else can chime in on why this shouldnt be done Im open to all techniques and just want to improve.

[cjmt]

Correct thread weight is very much a matter of preference, as long as its strong enough. The European aestetic is more towards finer thread on the whole. You will achieve a neater looking more refined stitch with a lighter thread, assuming your techinque is good enough. My stitching is far from perfect, but for eg the watch strap below is a Blanchard no 10 pricking iron and 632 Ecru Lin Cable. The belt is 532 Natural Lin Cable with a no 8 Blanchard iron. You can also get a nice stitch with a no 8 and 432.

Charlie

[9tpi]

I work as a chef and I think one way of looking at it is. Most people at home when cutting vegetables for soup and other dishes use larger more rustic cut based on skill level which is fine but I think people in the industry look at smaller precise cuts as a sign of craftsmanship and detail. Maybe that doesnt make sense haha. but after awhile you would look at the larger size and find it to be a more rustic and less refined look.

Fantastic analogy .

it takes both technique and finesse to achieve a clean stitch as it does with a brunoise

[Matt T]

Try looping the thread over the needle during your stitching process.

[mrtreat32]

Fantastic analogy .

it takes both technique and finesse to achieve a clean stitch as it does with a brunoise

thanks thanks I tried

Correct thread weight is very much a matter of preference, as long as its strong enough. The European aestetic is more towards finer thread on the whole. You will achieve a neater looking more refined stitch with a lighter thread, assuming your techinque is good enough. My stitching is far from perfect, but for eg the watch strap below is a Blanchard no 10 pricking iron and 632 Ecru Lin Cable. The belt is 532 Natural Lin Cable with a no 8 Blanchard iron. You can also get a nice stitch with a no 8 and 432.

Charlie

beautiful stitching! If you don't mind I would love to hear your technique.

Do you punch the holes all the way through with the iron? Do you cast there stitch?

[Cletus2014]

Correct thread weight is very much a matter of preference, as long as its strong enough. The European aestetic is more towards finer thread on the whole. You will achieve a neater looking more refined stitch with a lighter thread, assuming your techinque is good enough. My stitching is far from perfect, but for eg the watch strap below is a Blanchard no 10 pricking iron and 632 Ecru Lin Cable. The belt is 532 Natural Lin Cable with a no 8 Blanchard iron. You can also get a nice stitch with a no 8 and 432.

Charlie

That is gorgeous work Charlie! Definitely a great example of what can be done with some practice and proper technique - it's a lot easier to understand what folks are saying about using the finer threads and higher stitch counts when you can demonstrate something like this. Wow.

If you don't mind my asking another question or two - I see some others already have -

I see that you're stitching very close to the edge of the piece, which is appropriate for such fine work. Are you using a groover, or otherwise creating a recessed path for the stitching to lay into?

What do you use to emboss the edge outside of your stitch line? Is that an impression made with a tool of some kind, or does it just...occur..as a result of your stitching technique?

You mentioned using Blanchard 10spi pricking irons. I've been seriously considering buying a set of these irons, but I have a hard time picturing how fine, or small, the stitch marks are that these are capable of. Evidently, you can get very close to the edge with these tools without wrecking the edges. Your strap and belt example pretty much has me convinced that I need to just bite the bullet and spend the money for these.

My last question (I hope I'm not going too far here) How do you lock the thread at the end of a stitch line with the Chinois thread? With the heavily waxed linen I've been using, I just do a couple back-stitches, with the ends coming out on the back of the piece and just clip them flush. I read that no knots or anything are necessary to keep the thread locked and in place this way. The Chinois, however, which isn't quite as "sticky" as the waxed thread, doesn't seem to me it would stay put without some kind of knot, or other method of locking. Any comments on the locking technique you used on these two pieces?

Regardless, I have to say it again - Your outstanding work is really something to aspire to, thanks for posting!

[cjmt]

thanks thanks I tried

beautiful stitching! If you don't mind I would love to hear your technique.

Do you punch the holes all the way through with the iron? Do you cast there stitch?

Thank you. Its just saddle stitch really, I do cast the thread on the reverse side and when I stitch I make sure my hands are moving the thread in the direction I want it, so as I pull the tread through my right hand is going down and my left hand is going up to position the thread correctly in the stitch mark. Its all about consistency though, if you do exactly the same thing every time, you'll get the same result every time, good or bad.

For both the photos the stitch marks are in the top piece of leather only, the stitch marks are made before the strap/belt is assembled. If Im making somthing like a wallet thats more double sided I do punch the stich marks as far through the assembled piece as possible.

That is gorgeous work Charlie! Definitely a great example of what can be done with some practice and proper technique - it's a lot easier to understand what folks are saying about using the finer threads and higher stitch counts when you can demonstrate something like this. Wow.

If you don't mind my asking another question or two - I see some others already have -

I see that you're stitching very close to the edge of the piece, which is appropriate for such fine work. Are you using a groover, or otherwise creating a recessed path for the stitching to lay into?

What do you use to emboss the edge outside of your stitch line? Is that an impression made with a tool of some kind, or does it just...occur..as a result of your stitching technique?

You mentioned using Blanchard 10spi pricking irons. I've been seriously considering buying a set of these irons, but I have a hard time picturing how fine, or small, the stitch marks are that these are capable of. Evidently, you can get very close to the edge with these tools without wrecking the edges. Your strap and belt example pretty much has me convinced that I need to just bite the bullet and spend the money for these.

My last question (I hope I'm not going too far here) How do you lock the thread at the end of a stitch line with the Chinois thread? With the heavily waxed linen I've been using, I just do a couple back-stitches, with the ends coming out on the back of the piece and just clip them flush. I read that no knots or anything are necessary to keep the thread locked and in place this way. The Chinois, however, which isn't quite as "sticky" as the waxed thread, doesn't seem to me it would stay put without some kind of knot, or other method of locking. Any comments on the locking technique you used on these two pieces?

Regardless, I have to say it again - Your outstanding work is really something to aspire to, thanks for posting!

Thank you again!

I dont cut a channel, unless it was quite wide you couldnt fit a slanted stitch in it. I do use a crease mark as a guide and a little recess for the stitching though. The line ouside the stitching is again a crease mark, this time applied after the stitching with a filiteuse. Its partially decorative but also helps to shape, compress and round the edge.

The blanchard irons leave a really nice mark. They arent tiny, but very slim blades and very consistent. Remember they count tpi not spi though, a Blanchard 10 is approx 9 spi

I also just back stitch a couple of stitches to finish. I was the thread to stitch with as normal when I use it so its still a little grippy. I imagine people do use it with no extra wax, its much harder to handle if you do though

Charlie

[UnionCraft]

Sorry if I butt-in, but here are some answers to your questions.

I see that you're stitching very close to the edge of the piece, which is appropriate for such fine work. Are you using a groover, or otherwise creating a recessed path for the stitching to lay into?

He is either going the traditional way by:

Using a compass or ruler+scratch awl to draw a line in order to line up his pricking iron

Or:

He is using an edge creaser to guide his pricking iron in a straight line. See right below!

What do you use to emboss the edge outside of your stitch line? Is that an impression made with a tool of some kind, or does it just...occur..as a result of your stitching technique?

There are several options for achieving this using different edge creasers.

1. A “screw creaser”

EX: Vergez Blanchard “Cornette a Jonc Manche Buis”

2. A fixed edge “creaser”

EX: Vergez Blanchard “Fer a Filet Maroquinier a Guide Emmanche”

3. Heated iron. These don’t really have an exact name. Some use soldering irons with the creaser tip attached. The ones used by Hermes are the most sought after versions.

EX: Ets P. Regad & Fils “G/6M (power source and controls)” + “Manche (the handle)” + “Ref: F Fileteuse (attachable creasing tip)”

You mentioned using Blanchard 10spi pricking irons. I've been seriously considering buying a set of these irons, but I have a hard time picturing how fine, or small, the stitch marks are that these are capable of. Evidently, you can get very close to the edge with these tools without wrecking the edges. Your strap and belt example pretty much has me convinced that I need to just bite the bullet and spend the money for these.

The size of each tooth is approx. 1/16th of an inch.

I would recommend a set of 4 irons.

- Griffe a Frapper a Dents N°00 01 Dent - Very handy for filling in big gaps on squared corners.

- Griffe a Frapper a Dents N°10 02 Dent - Useful for going around rounded corners.

- Griffe a Frapper a Dents N°00 04 Dent - Useful for tight spaces and smaller work such as across watch straps or making small keychains.

- Griffe a Frapper a Dents N°00 10 Dent - Useful for small leather goods such as watch straps, wallets. Also larger items like bags and cases.

Others have been able to achieve good stitching with vintage pricking irons, Chinese, Japanese, Joseph Dixon, and George Barnsley irons. It’s not always about the tools, it’s more on the user’s end.

I can already tell you that you need to re-learn saddle stitching and practice more. I already can see what you’re doing wrong, so it’s not the irons fault. When you master your current irons, decide whether you’re content with your current tools and then determine whether or not you’d like to upgrade to VB. If you need help, I’m sure someone including myself can steer you in the right direction.

When I asked about stitching long ago, many seemed to ignore me. I ended up watching tons of videos to learn.

My last question (I hope I'm not going too far here) How do you lock the thread at the end of a stitch line with the Chinois thread? With the heavily waxed linen I've been using, I just do a couple back-stitches, with the ends coming out on the back of the piece and just clip them flush. I read that no knots or anything are necessary to keep the thread locked and in place this way. The Chinois, however, which isn't quite as "sticky" as the waxed thread, doesn't seem to me it would stay put without some kind of knot, or other method of locking. Any comments on the locking technique you used on these two pieces?

Do the same with the lin cable. Back stitch 2-3 times and nip the thread as flush as possible.

I noticed you refer the lin cable plainly and your alternative thread as “Waxed linen thread.”

The lin cable must be waxed! Get beeswax and draw the lin cable through the wax like the Hermes artisan in the “Pique Sellier Video.”

Some craftsmen also use a needle and poke out a very small piece of beeswax and wedge it into the last hole.

Hermes strap makers finish their stitches by back stitching 3 times vs the usual 2 and they do a similar thing with the beeswax except they use a small amount of glue (use elmers glue.)

I typically do not use the beeswax or glue. I just nip the thread and then hammer the stitches and I’m done.

FYI N°10 & 632 FTW!!!

If using a N°09, it should be either 532 or 632.

However, like what Charlie said, it’s about preference really.