Fil Au Chinois Thread Problems

[Matt T]

Try looping the thread over the needle during your stitching process.

[mrtreat32]

Fantastic analogy .

it takes both technique and finesse to achieve a clean stitch as it does with a brunoise

thanks thanks I tried

Correct thread weight is very much a matter of preference, as long as its strong enough. The European aestetic is more towards finer thread on the whole. You will achieve a neater looking more refined stitch with a lighter thread, assuming your techinque is good enough. My stitching is far from perfect, but for eg the watch strap below is a Blanchard no 10 pricking iron and 632 Ecru Lin Cable. The belt is 532 Natural Lin Cable with a no 8 Blanchard iron. You can also get a nice stitch with a no 8 and 432.

Charlie

beautiful stitching! If you don't mind I would love to hear your technique.

Do you punch the holes all the way through with the iron? Do you cast there stitch?

[Cletus2014]

Correct thread weight is very much a matter of preference, as long as its strong enough. The European aestetic is more towards finer thread on the whole. You will achieve a neater looking more refined stitch with a lighter thread, assuming your techinque is good enough. My stitching is far from perfect, but for eg the watch strap below is a Blanchard no 10 pricking iron and 632 Ecru Lin Cable. The belt is 532 Natural Lin Cable with a no 8 Blanchard iron. You can also get a nice stitch with a no 8 and 432.

Charlie

That is gorgeous work Charlie! Definitely a great example of what can be done with some practice and proper technique - it's a lot easier to understand what folks are saying about using the finer threads and higher stitch counts when you can demonstrate something like this. Wow.

If you don't mind my asking another question or two - I see some others already have -

I see that you're stitching very close to the edge of the piece, which is appropriate for such fine work. Are you using a groover, or otherwise creating a recessed path for the stitching to lay into?

What do you use to emboss the edge outside of your stitch line? Is that an impression made with a tool of some kind, or does it just...occur..as a result of your stitching technique?

You mentioned using Blanchard 10spi pricking irons. I've been seriously considering buying a set of these irons, but I have a hard time picturing how fine, or small, the stitch marks are that these are capable of. Evidently, you can get very close to the edge with these tools without wrecking the edges. Your strap and belt example pretty much has me convinced that I need to just bite the bullet and spend the money for these.

My last question (I hope I'm not going too far here) How do you lock the thread at the end of a stitch line with the Chinois thread? With the heavily waxed linen I've been using, I just do a couple back-stitches, with the ends coming out on the back of the piece and just clip them flush. I read that no knots or anything are necessary to keep the thread locked and in place this way. The Chinois, however, which isn't quite as "sticky" as the waxed thread, doesn't seem to me it would stay put without some kind of knot, or other method of locking. Any comments on the locking technique you used on these two pieces?

Regardless, I have to say it again - Your outstanding work is really something to aspire to, thanks for posting!

[cjmt]

thanks thanks I tried

beautiful stitching! If you don't mind I would love to hear your technique.

Do you punch the holes all the way through with the iron? Do you cast there stitch?

Thank you. Its just saddle stitch really, I do cast the thread on the reverse side and when I stitch I make sure my hands are moving the thread in the direction I want it, so as I pull the tread through my right hand is going down and my left hand is going up to position the thread correctly in the stitch mark. Its all about consistency though, if you do exactly the same thing every time, you'll get the same result every time, good or bad.

For both the photos the stitch marks are in the top piece of leather only, the stitch marks are made before the strap/belt is assembled. If Im making somthing like a wallet thats more double sided I do punch the stich marks as far through the assembled piece as possible.

That is gorgeous work Charlie! Definitely a great example of what can be done with some practice and proper technique - it's a lot easier to understand what folks are saying about using the finer threads and higher stitch counts when you can demonstrate something like this. Wow.

If you don't mind my asking another question or two - I see some others already have -

I see that you're stitching very close to the edge of the piece, which is appropriate for such fine work. Are you using a groover, or otherwise creating a recessed path for the stitching to lay into?

What do you use to emboss the edge outside of your stitch line? Is that an impression made with a tool of some kind, or does it just...occur..as a result of your stitching technique?

You mentioned using Blanchard 10spi pricking irons. I've been seriously considering buying a set of these irons, but I have a hard time picturing how fine, or small, the stitch marks are that these are capable of. Evidently, you can get very close to the edge with these tools without wrecking the edges. Your strap and belt example pretty much has me convinced that I need to just bite the bullet and spend the money for these.

My last question (I hope I'm not going too far here) How do you lock the thread at the end of a stitch line with the Chinois thread? With the heavily waxed linen I've been using, I just do a couple back-stitches, with the ends coming out on the back of the piece and just clip them flush. I read that no knots or anything are necessary to keep the thread locked and in place this way. The Chinois, however, which isn't quite as "sticky" as the waxed thread, doesn't seem to me it would stay put without some kind of knot, or other method of locking. Any comments on the locking technique you used on these two pieces?

Regardless, I have to say it again - Your outstanding work is really something to aspire to, thanks for posting!

Thank you again!

I dont cut a channel, unless it was quite wide you couldnt fit a slanted stitch in it. I do use a crease mark as a guide and a little recess for the stitching though. The line ouside the stitching is again a crease mark, this time applied after the stitching with a filiteuse. Its partially decorative but also helps to shape, compress and round the edge.

The blanchard irons leave a really nice mark. They arent tiny, but very slim blades and very consistent. Remember they count tpi not spi though, a Blanchard 10 is approx 9 spi

I also just back stitch a couple of stitches to finish. I was the thread to stitch with as normal when I use it so its still a little grippy. I imagine people do use it with no extra wax, its much harder to handle if you do though

Charlie

[UnionCraft]

Sorry if I butt-in, but here are some answers to your questions.

I see that you're stitching very close to the edge of the piece, which is appropriate for such fine work. Are you using a groover, or otherwise creating a recessed path for the stitching to lay into?

He is either going the traditional way by:

Using a compass or ruler+scratch awl to draw a line in order to line up his pricking iron

Or:

He is using an edge creaser to guide his pricking iron in a straight line. See right below!

What do you use to emboss the edge outside of your stitch line? Is that an impression made with a tool of some kind, or does it just...occur..as a result of your stitching technique?

There are several options for achieving this using different edge creasers.

1. A “screw creaser”

EX: Vergez Blanchard “Cornette a Jonc Manche Buis”

2. A fixed edge “creaser”

EX: Vergez Blanchard “Fer a Filet Maroquinier a Guide Emmanche”

3. Heated iron. These don’t really have an exact name. Some use soldering irons with the creaser tip attached. The ones used by Hermes are the most sought after versions.

EX: Ets P. Regad & Fils “G/6M (power source and controls)” + “Manche (the handle)” + “Ref: F Fileteuse (attachable creasing tip)”

You mentioned using Blanchard 10spi pricking irons. I've been seriously considering buying a set of these irons, but I have a hard time picturing how fine, or small, the stitch marks are that these are capable of. Evidently, you can get very close to the edge with these tools without wrecking the edges. Your strap and belt example pretty much has me convinced that I need to just bite the bullet and spend the money for these.

The size of each tooth is approx. 1/16th of an inch.

I would recommend a set of 4 irons.

- Griffe a Frapper a Dents N°00 01 Dent - Very handy for filling in big gaps on squared corners.

- Griffe a Frapper a Dents N°10 02 Dent - Useful for going around rounded corners.

- Griffe a Frapper a Dents N°00 04 Dent - Useful for tight spaces and smaller work such as across watch straps or making small keychains.

- Griffe a Frapper a Dents N°00 10 Dent - Useful for small leather goods such as watch straps, wallets. Also larger items like bags and cases.

Others have been able to achieve good stitching with vintage pricking irons, Chinese, Japanese, Joseph Dixon, and George Barnsley irons. It’s not always about the tools, it’s more on the user’s end.

I can already tell you that you need to re-learn saddle stitching and practice more. I already can see what you’re doing wrong, so it’s not the irons fault. When you master your current irons, decide whether you’re content with your current tools and then determine whether or not you’d like to upgrade to VB. If you need help, I’m sure someone including myself can steer you in the right direction.

When I asked about stitching long ago, many seemed to ignore me. I ended up watching tons of videos to learn.

My last question (I hope I'm not going too far here) How do you lock the thread at the end of a stitch line with the Chinois thread? With the heavily waxed linen I've been using, I just do a couple back-stitches, with the ends coming out on the back of the piece and just clip them flush. I read that no knots or anything are necessary to keep the thread locked and in place this way. The Chinois, however, which isn't quite as "sticky" as the waxed thread, doesn't seem to me it would stay put without some kind of knot, or other method of locking. Any comments on the locking technique you used on these two pieces?

Do the same with the lin cable. Back stitch 2-3 times and nip the thread as flush as possible.

I noticed you refer the lin cable plainly and your alternative thread as “Waxed linen thread.”

The lin cable must be waxed! Get beeswax and draw the lin cable through the wax like the Hermes artisan in the “Pique Sellier Video.”

Some craftsmen also use a needle and poke out a very small piece of beeswax and wedge it into the last hole.

Hermes strap makers finish their stitches by back stitching 3 times vs the usual 2 and they do a similar thing with the beeswax except they use a small amount of glue (use elmers glue.)

I typically do not use the beeswax or glue. I just nip the thread and then hammer the stitches and I’m done.

FYI N°10 & 632 FTW!!!

If using a N°09, it should be either 532 or 632.

However, like what Charlie said, it’s about preference really.

[UnionCraft]

Thank you. Its just saddle stitch really, I do cast the thread on the reverse side and when I stitch I make sure my hands are moving the thread in the direction I want it, so as I pull the tread through my right hand is going down and my left hand is going up to position the thread correctly in the stitch mark. Its all about consistency though, if you do exactly the same thing every time, you'll get the same result every time, good or bad.

For both the photos the stitch marks are in the top piece of leather only, the stitch marks are made before the strap/belt is assembled. If Im making somthing like a wallet thats more double sided I do punch the stich marks as far through the assembled piece as possible.

Thank you again!

I dont cut a channel, unless it was quite wide you couldnt fit a slanted stitch in it. I do use a crease mark as a guide and a little recess for the stitching though. The line ouside the stitching is again a crease mark, this time applied after the stitching with a filiteuse. Its partially decorative but also helps to shape, compress and round the edge.

The blanchard irons leave a really nice mark. They arent tiny, but very slim blades and very consistent. Remember they count tpi not spi though, a Blanchard 10 is approx 9 spi

I also just back stitch a couple of stitches to finish. I was the thread to stitch with as normal when I use it so its still a little grippy. I imagine people do use it with no extra wax, its much harder to handle if you do though

Charlie

Sorry Charlie,

I wrote this up before I noticed a reply from you. Great work by the way!

[cjmt]

Sorry Charlie,

I wrote this up before I noticed a reply from you. Great work by the way!

Thank you and no problem re the reply, rather more detailed than mine anyway!

Charlie

[Cletus2014]

Charlie and Union Craft...and David L...and everyone else too -

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your guidance and considered answers to my many questions about the finer points of stitching and its various tools and materials. You've posted excellent examples and made suggestions that can actually be acted on, which is invaluable to me as well as, I'm sure, the other newbies reading this post with great interest.

The more I practice and read and learn and the more time I spend here, soaking up the knowledge, the more I begin to truly understand the sheer breadth and scope of this noble craft. Of the many disciplines one needs to be proficient in fine leatherwork, proper stitching technique alone is enough to keep me engaged for some time to come. It seems I'm still at that stage where I 'don't know what I don't know' to some degree, but I'm beginning to get a handle on things and realizing some direction - at least on the parts where I most need the practice.

At this point, right as I'm beginning to feel comfortable controlling my awl (and about where it might poke through the backside of the leather) I think I need to stop what I'm doing and go back to square one on my actual saddle stitch technique. Just when I thought I was getting the hang of it, it appears what I'm actually doing is getting a few bad habits down to rote and I would be better off starting over again doing some things the right way from the outset.

I can see I'm rambling now - I'm at the end of a 12 hour nightshift and sleepy - and best get to bed before putting everyone else here to sleep too! Thanks again for your thoughtful remarks and instruction - be seeing you all again soon.

[Hi Im Joe]

I feel like with thicker thread it is much easier to keep the threads oriented correctly in the hole as you pull them tight. With thinner thread I have to really slow down and make sure they stay oriented correctly. Many times if I put the second needle through the bottom of the hole as I pull the two threads through it flip flops and ends up on the top of the hole which ruins your stitch line. I need to just practice more (and more importantly take my time when I stitch).

Hope that helps.

[malchik]

Referring to pictures you posted at http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=55732#entry357442, it seems you have problems with consistency of stitching. It seems needles doesn't pass each other on the same side every time (important) nor your thread tension is equally from stitch to stitch. Take a look at Nigels excellent video about stitching on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGuiha5S2oE)