Shanwen Kia (Chinese Scale) Armor Question

[Buddahcjcc]

Im looking to make this style armor in leather and bake or wax hardening the leather to make it hard.

http://www.armourarchive.org/essays/Shanwenkia.pdf

For those who dont know what it is or looks like. Im especially enthused being that noone really knows what it looks like so its not like I can really screw it up.

That said, Does ANYONE know the dimensions of this type of scale where I can get it to fit the way its supposed to? Thats the trick that Im finding hard to do so far. Im using around 6 oz leather (maybe lighter) the guy at Tandy said it was good for "screwing around" with as its so light (but he never gave me a weight).

But it is extremely hard (impossible from what Ive seen) to get the leather to weave the way it is supposed to if the dimensions are off. Any help would be amazing

[dirtclod]

I'd make the big part 1 inch wide and the smaller leags 1/2 inch and see what happens you can go bigger / wider or smaller and cut your pattern pieces out poster board to see if they fit then cut your leather. I have no ideal on the harding part but i think it has been talked about on here before.

[Buddahcjcc]

I'd make the big part 1 inch wide and the smaller leags 1/2 inch and see what happens you can go bigger / wider or smaller and cut your pattern pieces out poster board to see if they fit then cut your leather. I have no ideal on the harding part but i think it has been talked about on here before.

Ill give it a try and bew back with pictures/results

[RavenAus]

I would suggest that some of the scales need their peaks and troughs reversed so that they actually fit together better? So some like this ^ and some like this v.

[Bob Blea]

You've got a really cool project there! It's going to be hard to duplicate what the ancient Chinese armorers were doing without any surviving examples. You are basically going to have to reinvent their technology that they may have spent several generations developing. My only suggestion would be to start off narrowing the top strap of the plate to allow you more room for error in how the scales interlock. Looking at the paper scales in the picture in the article you can see there is no tolerance for error in how they interlock. There are no gaps in how the upper tab fits into the scales around it. Not only will that make it hard to interweave them evenly (you can see if the small paper example its difficult to evenly weave just a few) it would probably make the finished armor very inflexible. That would make it hard for the person wearing it to flex or maneuver, which would be very bad for soldier. Making the upper tab a little smaller (and maybe all three tabs) will give you more flexibility when assembling and maybe make it more functional too.

I also wonder if they didn't need to vary the size of the plates somehow to allow for curvature of the body. If you've ever tried stamping a geometric pattern on something curved, you will find that your rows can't line up evenly going through the curves and you have to make little adjustments and overlap stamps to make it work out. Usually you end up with a few overlapping stamps somewhat out of sight. They would have needed some way to adjust for a curved body shape, maybe by changing sizes or maybe shapes of the scales? Again without experience or an example to look at, it will just be up to trial and error.

Good luck, can't wait to see what you come up with!

Bob

[Buddahcjcc]

Was one of my earlier ideas based on a design that left out the outriggers for a design that was attached to the backing by all three points

was the best luyck Ive had with the design so far, Im stepping out to get a T-Square so I can do straight lines properly

My own attempts at the paper phase

The hardest part in the leather phase seems to be getting the outriggers just the correct shape otherwise (as in the above picture) they just wont fit. This armor was originally iron and copper by the way (as far as Ive read) so it SHOULD be more flexible in water hardened leather than it originally was.

A point to my ability: I am an extreme novice. I have four bracers under my belt and thats it XD

I set my sights at making a pair of bracers (one flopped, three survive) and with a little instruction from someone here (http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showuser=15001) Im callin him out as he's been such a help, I made the following:

(not my tooling)

With laces

Left to right, my first attempt (that failed, Im planninmg on remaking it in Shanwen kia as with the scales you wone see the errors of the original attempt at tooling), my second attempt (friend's tooling), my third (friction wand for a Harry Potter Death Eater wand on the top, Stap attaching system on bottom), and my latest, My first attempt at tooling (the bumpy deatail was intended as it looks like pebbled snake skin)

The tooling bracer has the bottom as below (boy was that a pain to stitch)

The Wand holder bracer looks like this (cause I messed up and had to go with plan :

Now I include all that not to show off, just to show how far I am in my progression. To show what I know how to do I guess.

And yes, it may be insane to tackle such an advanced project this early in my learning, but thats how my creation process works. Throw myself at the project, and if I fail, learn how not to fail, then throw myself again, till I overcome it.

I'm currently trying to make greaves next (while I work on the problem of the scales)

Edited June 18, 2014 by Buddahcjcc

[Dwight]

Just a quick suggestion, . . . as I do this quite a bit.

Get a 40 or 50% off coupon off the internet for Joann's Fabric. Go to the rear of the store where they have their canvas and vinyl, . . . some of their vinyl runs just shy of 20 bucks a yard, . . . you get a piece 36 inches wide and 45 inches long for 10 or 12 bucks.

You can pattern a whole bunch of stuff, . . . and see how it works out, . . . without cutting leather, . . . and not having to put up with paper or manila folders.

I did that especially for a couple sets of chaps, . . . paid off just the other day, . . . lady wanted to see a couple samples of my work, . . . I showed her my vinyl samples, . . . she came within an inch of wanting vinyl chaps, . . . but her buddy talked her out of it. I was hoping she would.

Anyway, . . . that's how I would start out.

May God bless,

Dwight

[SilverBear]

After thinking about this for a while I would guess that the arms had slots instead of holes with an extended rivet from the center of the piece over where the three arms come together allowing them to slide around. By varying the length of the slot in different parts you should be able to control the amount of flexibility in all three directions, and having them ride on a rivet attached to the center of the plate that covers them would also tie the layers together.

I am looking forward to your next update.