N00B Saddle Stitch Question - Knot Or No Knot.

[Day Dreamer]

I did a google search plus searched the leatherworker.net forums for this question, but I didn't find anything (my search skills are usually good, but there may be a disturbance in my google-fu).

To knot or not?

I'm starting into leather work. My end goal is making belts and holsters. I'm learning and practicing saddle stitching. As I've read through the various forum threads here related to saddle stitching, there are two common pieces of advice. 1) Read and follow Stohlman's "The Art of Hand Sewing Leather" (usually with a sincere admonition to actually read it and don't just look at the pictures) and 2) Watch Nigel Armitage's saddle stitching videos. Sometimes both suggestions are in the same post. OK, I did both of those things and I have one question (until the next question comes up ;-)).

When Stohlman starts stitching, he puts a knot in the middle of his thread and pulls the knot into his first stitch hole (page 9 of the book). Nigel doesn't do the knot (at least in the videos), but usually starts a couple holes from the end and back stitches a couple holes. At least that's what I saw in his videos.

So I get there are two ways. My question is which approach do people usually use? Is the Stohlman way an American approach and Nigel's way a British approach? Or is Stohlman an older way and better thread technology have made it obsolete? Or is it just a preference?

Thanks.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Day Dreamer

[Kevin]

Mostly I try not to knot. It can telegraph through and make a lump, but sometimes I do.

[Troy I]

When using a saddle stitch I don't use a knot. ..only back stitch two or three holes.

[billybopp]

I try to avoid knots. If do backstitch 2-3 holes on a line of stitching that runs from point A to point B, really just for appearances so that the beginning of the line looks like the end. If stitching all the way around an item, such as a guitar strap, then I do not backstitch at the beginning since the ending will overlap it by 2-3 holes.

Bill

[DavidL]

you can cast the thread, its the same as the first step of tying your shoes crossing the threads over. This was is usually done when stitching thick leathers (8 ounces altogether) since it can sometimes be harder to get the correct slant without casting the thread.

In nigels videos he stitches with and without casting the thread.

Casting the thread is when you loop the thread once. A "knot" is done when you cast the thread twice and I use it when ending a line of stitching, then cut the excess thread off, tuck in the last stitch hole and add some glue.

[Tannin]

Day Dreamer, like you, I'm learning from Nigel Armitage's youtube videos & Al Stohlman's books (Handsewing leather & Leather Tools) & also another book: the Leatherworking Handbook by Valerie Michael which is a nicely presented, modern introduction aimed at this sort of leatherwork i.e. English-style hand-sewn veg. tan (saddle-type) leather.

The Leatherworking Handbook: A Practical Illustrated Sourcebook of Techniques and Projects by Valerie Michael

So far I have not bothered with the centre knot, it seemed unnecessary but, having said that, it is annoying when I sometimes get a few stitches in & find the one "half" has somehow become longer than the other :D - so perhaps there is some benefit to this simple idea. Note that Al Stohlman recommends using much longer threads than Nigel does. Another chap, who used to sew leather handles in rail carriages said that he was taught to use 4 foot lengths - which seems quite short but perhaps suited the task.

Usually, so far, I do not back-stitch the start but I always back-stitch the end - used to do 3 or 4 stitches but now only 2, if seems like more than enough for my needs (I am using leather around 3-4.5mm). If using polyester thread, I finally melt the ends both to seal them and to "stick"/mushroom them (a trick I learnt from another hobby), and to hide them.

I get the impression that each leather worker learns but then their develops their own techniques to suit what works for them. I like the techniques it Al Stohlman's book for recovering from a broken thread or "cross-threaded" stitch (more important with the long threads he recommends) - that saved me a lot of time & thread and gave me a different way of looking at things. Al recommends traditional waxed flax/linen thread, while Nigel recommends (expensive) modern waxed, braided, polyester Tiger/Tigre thread - which might influence decisions. I love Nigel's videos but I find hispreferred #2 needles hard to thread and rather weak (bendy) and awl lengths (1.25"/1.5") a bit too short for the thick leathers I am currently working with - and to be fair, he does talk about the need to scale-up & scale-down to match the leathers used and I am probably starting with thicker leathers than normal.

BTW After buying the above book - which I like - I came across this (more expensive) book. Although I am not so keen on the cover image, from the preview, it looks like it covers similar ground but might go into a little more depth:

Leatherwork: A Practical Guide [Hardcover]
Chris Taylor (Author)

BTW I just got hold of a good second hand copy of Keith Savory's "The Working Saddler's Handbook" (from the USA - but it's an English book), first edition too. Unfortunately it's not really aimed at folk like me, it is - unsurprisingly - intended to be a bench reference for professional saddlers/bridle makers. So I will scan through it (was pleasantly surprised to see quite a lot of colour images) there are things to learn from it but will likely sell (or swap) that one on to somebody who can make better use it.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Tannin

[Day Dreamer]

Thanks all for the responses. Very helpful.

DavidL - You totally changed my way of thinking about the knot. I was thinking about it as a way of centering the thread and preventing the stitch from slipping in the awl hole. I hadn't thought of using the knot to set the slant of the thread coming out of the first hole.

Tannin - Thanks for your book suggestions. I looked at them online and think I've got a book order coming up.

Take care

Al

[Sona]

What David descirbes is the overhand knot, Nigel describes, not the knot Stohlmann mentions.
The overhandknot ("casting the stitch") is - if you use it - used all the way in every single hole (if I remember right, Al writes about that, too, but in a little different way) The first knot mentioned in "The art of handsewing leather" is just a center point which makes it easier to center the thread. As he advises you to prepare a whole bunch of thread from time to time so you just have to grap and us it, it is the way of efficient work flows, so you don´t have to prepare a thread everytime you need one. And there fore he just creates a knot at the center point, so he doesn´t have to look for that center while stitching. It´s just annoying if both ends of the thread are at a different length...

So if you use it or not jus depends on what you are comfortable with, you don´t need to do it, but if it makes the progress of stitching easier for you, it might be helpfull.
The backstitch Nigel does also isn´t done everytime. He mainly uses it at stress points like on the top of a phonecover, a briefcase or sth similar. If it is at a point where no such stress is intended (like adding an application) he doesn´t do that backstitch as it isn´t neccesary, just at the end of stitching to lock the thread.

[tsdock]

using a overhand knot in each stitch,works well if you are sewing thin leather or if you are sewing multiple layers of leather and drill the holes instead of using a diamond shaped awl to get your saddle stitch slant. I always thought that (overcasting) is when you center the thread to star,t and then bring one end of the thread over the top to the opposite side also do the other thread,and continue as you normally would. Please correct me if I am wrong on this. Good luck

[TexasJack]

Not.

(Can't believe I'm the first one to be a smart alec!)

(Sorry, but I couldn't resist.)

[Camerius]

I don't knot. I either back stitch 3-4 stitches and then cut off the thread on the backside of the project and as close as I can get it to the surface, when I use linen thread. With poly thread I cut it off after 2-3 back stitches and melts the ends.

[Feraud]

I don't knot. Just a backstitch or two does the job.

[DavidL]

too add to the discussion, casting the thread/ throwing the loop on thin leathers(two - 2 ounce leather) may not work because the thickness isn't enough the fit the two threads which are tangled together. In thicker leathers the added thickness can take up the tangled thread better.

[JLSleather]

That's a LOT of discussion about stickin' a piece of thread through a hole!

I got Stohlman's book forever ago, and I got quite a kick out of it. PAGES and PAGES of 'technique', then toward the end he says "you could just run one needle and then run it through the other holes and you'd end up with the same stitch". Yeah, not exact quote, but if you KNOW that's not exact, then you already know EXACTLY what he said (which, basically, was that).

Youtube .. really? SO many videos these days .. I'm not "anti" video, but I realy think people could improve their technique by turning off the computer and actually DOING some leather work!

Stab a hole, keeping the awl inside the channel (if any). Push the thread, pulling a bit on the other side of the thread (to prevent piercing the threads). Do it again. Do it again. Do it again...............

No degree required.