Do These Machines Have Value?

[Evo160K]

One is a Singer 45K25 A222 serial number EC636333, the other is an Adler 30-15 serial number 101027.

They're being offered to me by a gentleman who saw the Claes 8345 long-arm patcher I'm restoring for myself. He thinks the two have some issues, but doesn't know what. A price hasn't been discussed.

I don't sew and I don't know anything about the two machines, although the Adler looks similar to the machine I'm restoring. I'm doing it because I admired the looks. It was used in the business where I worked for years. Well it quickly became apparent they can become a money pit.

If I can re-sell the two as is, that's fine, I turned them over by hand, which doesn't tell me much. The Adler felt similar to my machine, but the Singer shocked me by how tight and smooth it is. I'd like to keep that machine just for the quality, but that wouldn't make sense. They must be exceptional machines.

Realistically, it would be a mistake for me to try to restore them judging by the difficulty and time involved with the Claes, although it is shaping up well. Your thoughts on what I should pay for them and what I can do with them would be much appreciated. TIA..

[silverbullet]

Both of those machines are of good quality still lots in use now , I own an Adler like it comes in handy quite often. Also I have an Adler copy of he 45 singer . That machine will work good on leather up to about 3/8 " . I think both could or should bring about a thousand each maybe more if really good condition parts can be had Bob Kovar hs a lot of parts and knows them like the back of his hand he's at Toledo sewing on the top banners here. Great to do business with too fair on price and can't beat the help the two Bobs can give. Gary

[Constabulary]

A thousand or more is too much I´d say. Thats probably a dealer price but as a private seller I think 400 - 700 is realistic.

It depends on how the market in your era is. If you want to sell them fast the price has to be quite low but if you have storage space and the time to wait for a customer who really wants exactly the machine you offer you can ask a bit more I´d say.

The 45K has no reverse and it is 1940 built (according to the serial number). New build Chinese versions of it cost 995 w/o reverse to 1295 with reverse but they are new and come with servo motor, speed reducer, table, warranty, a dealer service and so forth. So I don´t see a thousand for the 45K. I think 400-500 is realistic. If it had reverse maybe a 100 more but it is w/o reverse.

The Adler 30 is one of the later models, the early ones are all black but the greenish ones are about 1950´s - 1960´s build as far as I know. And since it is a 15 subclass (double digit) it probably is from the 1970´s I guess. So it is a "relatively new" machine compared with the black Adler 30´s in general. Considering the overall optical condition I´d say you can get 500 - 600 for it - maybe more but I don´t know how the prices in the US are for these machines. The documentation for this machine is quite good, I think I have a manual and a mechanics instruction PDF so I can add it here if you want.

BTW - ask if the machine come with some accessories and / or spare parts. This would be a big advantage as parts are quite expensive and you can make some more $.

I´d test them before you pay big $ and if they don´t work you have to be careful. Look for manuals in advance, read them so you don´t look like a fool when you are testing them. In general the needle and hook timing are not a too big issue on either machine. But I cannot judge the overall condition from the distance.

Asks the seller how much he wants and don´t make offers otherwise he will probably go up with the price.

I personally would buy both but depends on the price and if they are in working condition or not, if parts are missing or not and if the machines probably have extra accessories or spare parts. As I said, if it is just the needle / hook timing it would not be a big issue.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Constabulary

[Constabulary]

BTW - what I can tell from the pictures is that both machines DO NOT have the bobbin winder installed. So check if they are present or not. I have one for the 45K if it does not come with the machine.

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=58471&p=376093

Edited September 25, 2014 by Constabulary

[Darren Brosowski]

Minor issues with both machines.

45k bobbin winder is readily available and I suspect that a 29k (or Chinese equivalent) bobbin winder will fit the ADLER.

The 45k appears to have a reduction pulley set so speeds should be good.

Both machines are a great addition to any leather shop but as is from a private seller I would not pay more than $1000 for the pair.

[Constabulary]

What you see is not a reduction, it is a separated clutch.

See where the chain from the pedal goes to. Some early "electrified" heavy machines had these separated clutches. Adler used them as well. You sometimes find them on top of the table and sometimes underneath the table as in this case.

Will see if I can find my old Adler brochures...

[Constabulary]

got em - see pictures

[Constabulary]

@ Evo160K

So your estimated sale price could be about 800 -1100 but then they should be fully functional.

But when you buy them to make some money expect that you probably have to invest some money (in case the bobbin winders are missing and so forth) to put them back into a fully functional condition. Bobbin winders are an easy task - nothing you need special knowledge for.

So if you can get them for about $200 each (or even less) you should be able to make a nice profit.

At the end it is your decision. Keep in mind that you have to find a customer. But If I were you I´d buy them if the price is good.

[Darren Brosowski]

Singer used them too and some were up or down speed units with a clutch

What you see is not a reduction, it is a separated clutch.

See where the chain from the pedal goes to. Some early "electrified" heavy machines had these separated clutches. Adler used them as well. You sometimes find them on top of the table and sometimes underneath the table as in this case.

Will see if I can find my old Adler brochures...

[Evo160K]

Constabulary, Darren Brosowski and Silverbullet, thank you, thank you very much. That's exactly the information I need. I'll look at the machines again, see what additional parts are present and report back. There is an original Singer handbook in the Adler drawer along with other items, but I didn't look closely. Hopefully the handbook is for the Singer 45. Would you know the significance of the "A222" plate on the Singer?

Constabulary, I would appreciate any documentation that you have on either machine. Thank you and thank you for letting me know about your bobbin winder.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Evo160K

[Constabulary]

If there is an original 45K Manual in the drawer then PLEASE scan it and post the file here.

And in case you don´t need it I´d be interested in buying it

Adler manuals are too big to upload here so here you have the direct download links, just click on them and the download will start automatically. The machines may look a bit different but the instructions are the same.

Manual Adler 30-1

Mechanics Manual Adler 30-1

For the 45K I only have this:

45Kmanual.pdf

Edited September 26, 2014 by Constabulary

[Evo160K]

Thank you Constabulary, thank you very much. Those manuals are going to help tremendously.

If the gentleman lets me take the handbook before I buy the machines, I will definitely scan and post it. If not and we make a deal, of course, I'll scan and post it. I'll be seeing the machines again this afternoon.

[Evo160K]

Constabulary,

Turns out the handbook in the Adler drawer is for a Singer 29K60. That sort of makes sense, since the 29K model looks similar to the Adler 30-15, perhaps some of the parts and instructions are similar. I'm sure you know the answer to that.

I'm told the Adler is working and sews, I didn't try it, because I didn't want to take a chance of damaging it. In the drawer were several packages of small parts, needles ,small tools, bobbins, several shuttles and I believe a bobbin winder.

I took an electric extension cord with me and plugged in the Singer, the 1/3 hp motor sounds smooth and the clutch must work, because when I pulled the arm on the motor down, the machine ran and the needle moved up/down. Each pulley has several grooves for selecting different speeds. The treadle appears to be disconnected. There were no additional parts or literature around the machine.

Do you happen to know what the A222 on the Singer represents?

Thanks again for posting the manuals.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Evo160K

[Colt W Knight]

@ Evo160K

So your estimated sale price could be about 800 -1100 but then they should be fully functional.

But when you buy them to make some money expect that you probably have to invest some money (in case the bobbin winders are missing and so forth) to put them back into a fully functional condition. Bobbin winders are an easy task - nothing you need special knowledge for.

So if you can get them for about $200 each (or even less) you should be able to make a nice profit.

At the end it is your decision. Keep in mind that you have to find a customer. But If I were you I´d buy them if the price is good.

I think that is a realistic estimate for a running leather machine in the States, especially in areas that don't see a lot of used machines. When I was looking for a used machines, most of the ones I found were damn near retail for a new machine of similar capabilities. I talked to a lot of older leather workers and saddle repair guys, and most of them would tell me I had to buy an older machine to get one that would stand up to leather work. I know that isn't true, but that is the perception of a lot of the older generation guys I have talked to.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Colt W Knight

[Evo160K]

Colt W Knight,

Thanks for your estimate and for your thoughts. I feel fairly clear now on how to proceed. As a rule, I don't get involved in things I don't understand, in this case it's not too expensive and it's extremely interesting.

[Constabulary]

Have you bought the 2 machines?

[Evo160K]

Constabulary,

Not yet. I'm having difficulty contacting the actual owner. Hopefully by mid week. Thanks for your help.

[Evo160K]

After almost two months, I make contact with the owner of the machines.....turned out he's a good guy, just busy. For nostalgia reasons he wanted to hold on to the Adler 30-15, but I was able to purchase the Singer 45K25. My darling wife and I brought it home yesterday evening, weighs a ton. I'm totally pumped about it. We needed to unscrew the machine from the table top in order to get the two pieces into the car. The steel table top is actually drilled and tapped for the screws, it's definitely a heavy duty table. Btw, the seller promised to give me the first opportunity to purchase the Adler, if he changes his mind.

So this morning while I was cleaning off some of the dust, I noticed one half of the split portion of the stud that holds the tension discs was broken, it fell out as I was unscrewing the round nut. The agent had mentioned previously the machine ran, but didn't sew correctly. He said they couldn't get the tension adjusted. Since that round nut isn't tightening the discs, I'm hoping a new split stud will get the machine going.

I would like to ask you good people a couple of questions on the repair and restoration, so I'll start another topic for that.

Thanks all for your assistance.

[Constabulary]

I may have the tension stud but have to look for it. Which one is broken? The one on the back or the one on the left side (face plate)?

[Evo160K]

Constabulary,

That would be terrific, thank you. I'll cover all costs. It's the tension stud on the left side, on the face plate, and it points to the left. There's something strange about it though, instead of having two tension discs, it has one "pulley" about the size of tension discs sandwiched between the two indexed washers. Frankly, I don't see how to get tension on it, unless maybe by wrapping the thread around it two or three times. If that "pulley" is not supposed to be there and you have a pair of original Singer tension discs, would you please send them. I also need an original Singer end cover and screw if you have it. I'm going to try to stay with genuine Singer parts if I can. I need to find a 45K25 exploded parts diagram and parts list, sooner or later I'm going to need it.

The 45K operators manual that you posted for me was a great help. This evening (the above paragraph was written this morning) I used it to oil and thread the machine, and using the tension discs on the back side, I was able to get the machine sewing pretty well. The only thread I had to go with the huge needle that was in the machine was some 1000 deg. F Continuous Filament Beta (BC) Glass Fiber thread--lol. We used it years ago in our business in the Claes. I'm tremendously enthused and pleased with the machine so far.

Once everything is working properly, I'll totally pull it apart and start the serious cleaning and restoration. Here are some pictures of where I am at the moment. For reference, you can check the pictures in the original post.

Thanks again Constabulary.

Do you know why the long curved piece is on the back side?

Edited November 15, 2014 by Evo160K

[Constabulary]

The pulley is correct! Left and right of the pulley should be a felt disc on either side.

From let to right it should be assembled like this: Nut - spring - washer - felt disc - pulley - felt disc - washer - stud (of course) - check spring

The long curved piece is a foot lift lever. It normally is connected with a mechanism under the table from where you can lift the foot with your knee - or it is connected to a 2nd pedal near your treadle pedal (the one for the motor) so you can lift it with your foot.

Is your bobbin winder missing?

What you should take care of is that the small check spring that sits on the tension stud (and inside the face plate) always rests on the small pin and that the thread travels first around the pulley then over the pin near the pulley and the through the check spring.

I have attached a picture of my old Adler 104

Edited November 15, 2014 by Constabulary

[Constabulary]

Sorry - no tension stud! I thought I had one.

45K parts are hard to find but maybe the tension stud of the GA5-1 or Cowboy CB2500 will fit as they are more or less modern copy of the Singer 45K.

I´d contact Toledo Sewing. I often heard they have parts for older machines and they also have the CB2500 so this should be a good source for it.

Here is your parts list (direct download from Universal Sewing)

Parts List singer 45K21, 45K25

Edited November 15, 2014 by Constabulary

[Evo160K]

Constabulary,

Not a problem, thanks for looking. Thanks also for setting me straight on the pulley and the felt discs, that was a puzzle. Between the parts list you sent and the information on threading and the check spring, I should be able to move forward. Thank you. You're a wealth of information.

No, I don't have a bobbin winder. The seller said there may be more parts and a manual in one of their warehouses. I'm supposed to call him in 10 days to go with him to look, I'll know then if I need one. Hopefully it and the manual turn up. I'll report back on that.