Rose Head Knife Clean Up And Repair

[Oldtoolsniper]

An old Rose head knife I picked up for next to nothing. You can see why from the first picture, she was a little rough. That being said I'm a firm believer that if it's beyond repair you may as well try and repair it because it can't get any broker! I know that's not proper but broken won't work and broked ain't a word for that sentence either.

The first picture shows the knife as it was when I got it.

The second shows the handle removed. It's a 5/32" steel pin for those interested in knowing the pin size.

Picture three shows it back together.

Picture four is just closer so you can see I did not remove every pit down flush from the blade. It is also not sharpend yet.

The inlays are Ivory from a late 1800's piano keyboard they are 3/8" and cover a repair to the handle. The pin holding the blade has been replaced by a 5/32" brass rod. The missing wood around the pin was replaced with epxoy mixed with sanding dust from the handle.

The handle is walnut and I chose to repair it rather than replace it.

I tried to keed everything as original as I could on this.

Total time invested was about four hours. That's actually working on it, not drying time or breaks from sanding out rust pits.

I have a lot experience with restoring old woodworking tools and I am a woodworker with all the tools to build whatever I need. I'm saying that because doing this sort of thing can overwhelm folks who are not prepared. It's also not a cheap way to get a tool if you charge an hourly rate for your time. Having to buy all the tools would really make the price jump.

I used

Ivory key from piano

Two 1 x 30 belt sanders 120 through 2000 grit

1 drill press

4 sizes of drill bits

Shims and scrap boards to level handle for drilling

I 3/8" drill hole punch made from pipe to cut inlays

Wet/dry sandpaper from 80 grit to 2000 grit

Mineral oil for sandpaper lube

Bolt cutter

Dremel tool

Dremel grinding stones

5/32" brass rod

Buffer

4 different buffing wheels with different compound on each wheel

Epoxy

Bodied linseed oil/varnish/mineral spirits 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 mix

Rubber gloves

Lots of blue tape on edges ( even dull they cut flesh)

Band-aids

Safety glasses

A bunch of other stuff I forgot

Lots of patience

The last one is the most important. Stop and leave it alone. Think through the problem and go back to it.

I'm working on a few more. Each manufacture did things in their own way. I'm sure over the years the methods vary within the same manufacturer. The Dixon I'm working on has a rosewood handle that is simply driven on the tang. Two brass tacks hold the ferrule on and have caused the wood to split out over the years. You can see that handle in picture three in the background.

I'm pointing that out so anyone who wishes to do this will take the time to figure out how to take the one they have apart.

[J Hayes]

Pretty cool, nice job. I have 2 Rose knives that need some attention, worked on one, just the edge and boy is it hard steel! The polish you have on yours is very impressive, well done!

[Colt Hammerless]

That's a really nice job of cleaning it up. I've got a couple of big Roses to work on myself (just got one in today actually.) A couple of other knives as well. Do you use the mineral oil to lube all of the grits of sandpaper? I've been started with 220 grit, but that's obviously too fine to start with. I guess I need to drop down a bit to get rid of some of the pitting.

Paul

[Oldtoolsniper]

The very first thing I do is grind the edge off with the belt sander. I forgot that part. It's a 4 inch belt sander. This gets the nicks out of the blade and shapes the edge so you are not trying to sand out pits on a sharp edge. It keeps the end of your fingers on your fingers too.

J Hayes is correct, these blades by Rose are HARD! I start at 90 grit and work until the pits are as far gone as I'm going to get them. I did not want to sand the name out of the blade so check your progress often. I use oil for all grits, my handle is removed. If you leave the handle on oil will soak into it as will the black slurry you create while sanding. I would use good blue or green painters tape to keep the handle clean. Any oil will work I just happen to have lots of mineral oil on hand for trapping.

Try not to skip grits, it makes it harder to get the scratches from heavier grits out if you skip.

If you decide to take the hadle off driving the pin out is tough. It's not tapered but it's most likely rusted in place and chances are high that you will damage the handle around the pin hole. I used an arbor press to remove mine. Forgot that tool in my list too!

The Dixon knife I'm working on is not near as hard as the Rose. The osbornes have the softest blades according to my sanding.

[Colt Hammerless]

Thanks Oldtoolsniper! Yeah those Roses are hard. I've worked on a couple of them already. I just took the blade out of an Osborne the other day, as it was loose, and did damage the handle a bit getting it out. Never worked with a Dixon. I did have a little Gomph that seemed to be as hard as the Roses I've had. I have a nice big Gomph I got in not long ago, and haven't put an edge on it yet, so don't know how hard the steel on it will be, but I imagine it'll be hard. Fortunately, that one doesn't need much cleaning up, as it was really nice already.

Paul

[bruce johnson]

Good job. I'd agree with the perceived hardness on the Rose knives. An old guy told me that "A Rose knife is harder than a whore's heart and stays sharper than a mother-in-law's tongue". He was colorful and very accurate.

[Tannin]

Nice job. I like to see old tools restored & used.

BTW electrolysis is a gentle, easy way to clean off surface rust. I use washing soda solution (cheap & safe) as the electrolyte and an old homemade 12V battery charger (about 1 amp I think) for the "juice", and an old gardening fork as the other electrode (don't use stainless steel, polarity is important).

Another simpler approach I've heard recommended is to simply soak the metal in white vinegar for a few hours. Or wire wool and some "elbow grease" - old school! None of these approaches alone will give the highly polished, shiny metal finish shown above though, which I am sure is better than when the tool was brand new

Edited October 2, 2014 by Tannin

[Oldtoolsniper]

I use electrolysis on tools that the pitting is not very deep. Seems like these old knives were put down years ago and just left to rust, they are either clean and taken care of or in rough shape. Some of the pitting on these is the same depth as the makers stamp. They can be brought back to good shape with a lot of handwork and some time.

I'm truly amazed at how well these old tools take an edge and hold it. Considering all the computerized methods used today to temper blades and how they did it a hundred years ago. I'll take one of these old girls over any six modern osbornes in a heart beat, rust and all. They are wonderful tools when you get them back to useable condition.

In my opinion the worst thing to do to one of these old tools is going after them with a wire wheel. I see countless examples of wire wheeled old tools and to me they look awful. I'd rather have all of the rust on them then a wire wheeled version. Doing that rounds all the letters off on the makers mark and eats up brass and wood something fierce.

[GerryR]

I'm interested in how you restored the wood handle, Including the brass ferrule?

[Oldtoolsniper]

I'm interested in how you restored the wood handle, Including the brass ferrule?

Warning! Please do not assume this will work on all of these knives. Each manufacturer did things in their own way and pin sizes as well as ways to attach the handle May or may not be the same. Go slow and be prepared to do some repair work on the handle you remove.

I'm not trying to insult folks with these instructions I'm explaining things in detail so the things you have on hand can be used to do this.

Look at how the brass is inserted onto your handle. Try and determine if it was slid onto the handle after the blade was installed into the handle. If that is possible you may have a rod under the ferrule that holds the handle on. If there is no way that this is possible make sure there is not a pin through the handle somewhere else that is covered with grime or hidden by an earlier repair.

On this knife the steel pin was apparent but really hard to remove. I used a magnet to determine it was steel so from there I could assume it was rusted into the blade. It was. I shimmed up the handle so it was level and drove the pin out with a short punch and an arbor press. The pin was 5/32". If you look at the pictures the rust tore out some of the handle so be prepared for that. I was prepared to make an new handle if needed and I'm fortunate to have the tools to do it.

Driving it out with a hammer would work too but I find better control with the press.

Using a vice as a press with a block of wood behind the handle and a hole drilled for the pin to slide out into would work too.

The brass ferrule in this case is very thin stuff. I chose not to remove if from the wood because it was not loose and removing it would have most likely destroyed it. It's press fit onto the handle.

Here are some things to remember about wood. Humidity or moisture will swell it, while being super dry will shrink it. Drawers stick all summer and then pull right out dumping everything on your feet in the winter here in Iowa. I have two old food dehydrators that I use to shrink wood or dry it. Sometimes a day in the dehydrator will shrink the wood and the ferrule will fall off. I believe that if I can not pull it off by hand I will cause more damage to it by forcing it so I operate with it in place.

The Dixon I'm working on had two brass nails through the ferrule and no pin through the handle. That's why there is the warning at the top of this post.

With the ferrule in place I sanded the handle by hand through 400 grit. I went this fine because I was sanding the brass too. The brass should be level with the wood, sanding both at the same time makes this simple. Save the sanding dust because you will want it for the epoxy repair on the handle. You will be making epoxy wood putty.

Tape the wood part of the handle with good blue or green painters tape. Don't use cheap stuff or regular masking tape because it will leave sticky residue all over the wood and then you have to clean up that mess too. Avoid the urge to go "Harbor Freight" on tape, it is not worth the aggravation.

Now you can polish the brass without turning the handle black. I use a buffing wheel and jewelers rouge. You can sand it also up to about 1000 grit then polish it with brasso or some other metal polish for non-ferrous metal. If the wood is taped up good the wood will stay wood and not turn black. A dremel with a buff would work too. In the Marine Corps we did it with sandpaper and Brasso so there are many ways to get that little piece of brass shiny.

If the ferrule is off the handle then polish away with no worries about the wood!

Chemical stripping of the wood should not be required and be warned that chemical strippers may or may not eat the brass. Ammonia eats brass.

The handle in this case is walnut. Walnut is not an oily wood so glue adheres very well to it. If your handle is rosewood then it is oily wood and glue does not bond well to it without prep work. If your handle is rosewood you have to treat any place you are applying glue with acetone or lacquer thinner to remove the surface oil from the wood so glue will stick. Most all of your modern wood glues are water based and oil prohibits the moisture in the glue from penetrating or bonding to the wood. Remove the surface oil and it will bond. You have to do this even for epoxy. Gorilla glue won't work, it's a moisture (water is required for it to work) reactive adhesive. Oily wood has no moisture for it to react too. It also foams all over the place and creates another mess to clean up.

Once the handle work is done I complete the blade work minus sharpening it.

I installed the handle back on the blade. I cut the 5/32" brass rod about a 1/2" to long and roughed it up for the epoxy to stick to the pin. I use 100 grit paper to rough it up. The pin has oil on it from manufacturing and epoxy won't stick to oil. I drove the new brass through the handle and blade. It sticks out on both sides. You belt sand it off flush later.

Because I have tear out on both sides of the handle I did not use epoxy inside the pin hole. The pin will be epoxied on each side of the handle so I opted not to place it into the handle as well. Either way will work if you have tear out. If I you made a new handle I would epoxy the inside of the hole around the pin. I'm not a knife maker so this may be wrong but it's what I do.

I mixed the epoxy and added sanding dust to it so it pretty much matches the wood from the handle. It's epoxy wood putty or filler at this point. I use the thirty minute stuff because I'm slow. Clean the area to be adhered to with a q-tip and acetone ( finger nail polish remover is acetone, wife or daughter may have some). Apply the epoxy to the tear out area on one side, level the handle to and wait for it to set up. Now do the same thing on the other side. You can do both sides at once but gravity will be a problem on the bottom hole. I use my fishing rod dryer so I do both sides at once and clamp it into the rotating dryer for a few hours so the epoxy levels.

After both sides are done leave it alone for at least 24 hours. Longer is better because epoxy shrinks. You don't want to sand it and then have it shrink into the hole creating recessed areas around your pin.

I belt sand the pins down to almost flush. Caution here, heat will make the epoxy let go so don't overdo the pin grinding. You don't really want to be sticking the wood handle in water to cool the pin either. A file and sandpaper will work too. Tape the blade and clamp it in a vice between two pieces of leather and file the pins down or dremel them too. Whatever works for you.

Tape the ferrule off again with good tape. Or you can leave it and polish it again after sanding in the finish if you feel the need.

I finish sand the pin pin to 400 grit. I go to 400 grit because I wet sand the finish in at 400 grit. I wet sand the finish in because it's a handle on a tool. It's a tool I don't really want to slip with so a glossy, shiny, and slippery handle is not what I want. Using a mixture of 1/3 boiled linseed oil, 1/3 oil based varnish and 1/3 mineral spirits I sand in the finish. I use 400 grit wet/dry (black) sandpaper and wet sand the finish into the handle. Do not go "Harbor Freight" on your sandpaper or your handle will be black or the same color as the sandpaper. Mineral spirits is a solvent and solvent will loosen the glue on cheap wet/dry sand paper and then you have a black handle. 3M paper is not effected by mineral spirits.

Dip the sandpaper in the finish and hand sand the finish into the handle. You can also dip the handle into the finish and then sand the handle. The point is to sand the finish into the handle, how you apply the finish doesn't matter. Wet sanding the finish will create a slurry that will fill the grain and minor imperfections on the handle. Sand until it gets sticky and hard to sand. Hold the blade end and wipe the handle off with a disposable rag preferably one not full of lint. Let the handle dry for an hour or so, if you are not happy with your sanding job simply repeat wet sanding the finish into the handle until you are. You want to add finish each time you sand it or it will become a sticky mess.

Let it dry for a day or so when you are happy with it and then you can remove the tape from it and sharpen away.

I use paste wax on my handles after they are completely dry but this is not necessary, I just prefer it. I also use it on the steel to prevent rusting.

What the finish parts do.

Boiled linseed oil adds depth to the wood grain and penetrates the handle or wood (must be boiled not raw or it will never dry)

Oil based varnish adds protection and durability (water based will not work for this type of finish)

Mineral spirits thins the other two so they penetrate the wood and makes sanding it into the wood easier.

With the finish being thin and sanding it in you protect the wood but it still looks and feels like wood. It won't be slippery and it will feel good in your hand.

Do not wad the rags up and toss them in the trash. Spontaneous combustion is a hazard with finishes so dispose of your materials with proper precautions.

I know this was long and drawn out, I'm sorry about that but I don't know how else to explain it. It has taken me longer to type this then it does to finish a handle. (Not counting drying time)

The Ivory inlay is another matter. It's cut from a piano key with a drill press. You can't punch Ivory it's a bone and it shatters. Match the size of circle you wish to inlay with a forstner bit of the same size and epoxy it in.

If you are doing this to resell knives you will be working for less than minimum wages or asking a premium price for the tool when it's done.

It takes me about four hours to do a knife. Figure the price of the used knife, your hours of labor and you are into the $200.00 price range pretty quick. Shop labor here is an average of $65.00 an hour and you should consider your labor as shop time. I figure shop rate because I have all the tools. Time and material would work out the same or close to it.

My goal is to have an awesome estate auction! You know the one where people are saying what the heck was this guy thinking and why does he have three of everything? It's nice to have goals!

Edited October 4, 2014 by Oldtoolsniper