Do These Parts Do What I Assume?

[cleanview]

Lots of testing and I think I know but am sure could be enlightened as well. I assume the following parts do this.

1. Adjusts the tension on the top thread

2. Affects the knot and when it is. This one is confusing. I read and hear different things about what i does.

3. Bobbin thread tension.

I had to pull some stitches the other day and observed the bobbin thread had actually made some cuts in the leather. Is this normal? or, does it automatically mean that bobbin thread is to tight?

I am making a lot of progress with the machine, but to me it just makes things easier if I understand the machine better. And my understanding started at 0.

[TwinOaks]

1 AND 2 AND 3 control the tension....which controls where the knot is. I'll explain....

The tension on the bobbin should be pretty close to 'right' if the machine was set up by a dealer. It just controls how tightly the bobbin tries to hold onto the thread. The hook grabs the loop of your top thread (when the needle is rising) and wraps it around the bobbin. Then, the take up arm - the silver arm in the long slot facing the camera - pulls UP on the thread. When it does that, it's pulling on BOTH the thread that's in the leather and from the thread that's on the spool. So, 1 controls the thread from the spool, 2 controls the thread in the stitch. They should be fairly close to the same so that while the knot (formed when the top thread is wrapped around the bobbin) is being pulled up and into the leather, enough thread for the next knot is being pulled from the spool. If 1 is less than 2, you'll simply pull thread from the spool and never pull the knot into the leather. If 1 is more than 2, you'll pull the knot through the leather....unless you increase 3. Having 3 too tight might be what's causing the cuts in the leather. So....adjust 3 so that it has about a pound of smooth tension when you pull thread directly from it.(remember it should be close to 'right' from the factory) then adjust 1 and 2 at the same time so that the bottom thread and knot are pulled into the leather, but not so far that it pulls through to the top.

[TwinOaks]

While I haven't done much experimenting with multiple thread sizes (I'm only using two sizes) there are several members that have said that they can change thread size and NOT adjust the tensions at all. This is because despite the difference in thread size and the actual tension on the threads....the RATIO between the top and bottom tensions has stayed the same. On my Boss, I can run 277/277 or 277/207 with only change being 1/8th turn on the primary tensioner (closest to the needle) Or swap from 277/277 to 207/207 with no adjustments at all.....unless I change the thickness of leather.

example: for 277 thread, top and bottom, the bobbin is set at 1lb. the top tension is set at 1.3lbs, which lets the top thread pull the bobbin thread up.

If you drop down to size 96 thread, the tensions may be .6lb on the bottom and .9 on the top...but as long as the ratio remains the same, the stitch still looks good and functions as it should. ****I just plugged in arbitrary numbers, I don't know what the actual #s are****

Consider the thread without leather - it's simply getting the top tension to pull slightly more than the bottom tension in a set amount of space. The stronger the top tension is in comparison to the bottom tension, the more it will lift the knot in that set space. Now, when you add the leather, you are determining what that space is.

[cleanview]

Finally, I get it.

As a teacher, I have seen no greater joy than the look on a face when I know that they got it for the first time.

You can't see that look on my face, from this forum interaction, but it's there.

Thank you for the time it took to explain that

[TwinOaks]

You're most welcome; I'm glad to be able to help

[cleanview]

You're most welcome; I'm glad to be able to help

upon investigating this morning I find that part no. 1 has zero affect on the thread. in these pictures is there a reason visible? I can tighten all the way down and there is no resistance at all.

I dont think this is normal but I dont know. The only things I have "played with are the nuts to adjustments, nothing else.

[TwinOaks]

That tensioner is put together incorrectly. The two discs should be touching, as that's where the tension comes from. I'm not sure why they're separated like that, but they shouldn't be. You'll need to remove either the post that holds the tensioner discs, or that bracket that's separating them, to correct the problem. Based on the apparent height in the picture, I think that both should be under the bracket. Please TEST FIT things before tightening things back down. I'll add a pic of how the discs should look in just a few minutes.

This is just how the discs should be. Refer to threading instructions from other users of the 441 type machines for whether you should just go between the discs (like it's shown), or use a full wrap around it. Youtube, and more than a few posts here on LW discuss that.

[TwinOaks]

I really wish there was a 'tagging' feature here.....

I just looked and in the Al Bane instructional video, it looks like the discs ARE split by the bracket, but the techsew 5100 video shows them together....
I'm gonna PM some folks to see if they'll chime in on this one. This is where experience outweighs knowledge... please standby.

Bob Kovar threading that type machine:

[cleanview]

Appreciate it. I will work on this this afternoon. This is only one of a few things I have figures out were set up WRONG when I ordered it. Major frustrations that I should not have had to figure out.

[Red Cent]

The C4 discs are together. The brake pedal will separate the discs (just barely) allowing you to pull thread. Yours is radically wrong. I just looked at my C4. I am going to say your bracket arm that separates the discs is bent. That arm should be centered between the discs when it moves over to separate the discs. Is the arm in that position without using the right pedal? Super wrong if it is.

I was going to agree with TwinOaks, but if you look closer, the silver attachment is not interfering with the discs. That is the thead eyelet and it is not touching the discs.A closer look will show you the arm is bent and not doing its job.

Please take another picture or two from different angles

The 3200 has another tension point, I believe. Do you twist around and thread the post on top of the machine?

Edited December 14, 2014 by Red Cent

[TwinOaks]

Red Cent, since you have a similar machine, can you take a pic of yours from the same angle as above for comparison?

[Wizcrafts]

I will photograph the top tension area of my CB4500 Monday afternoon, when I go back into my shop. It is obvious that the disks are being held open when they shouldn't be. A couple of side shots of a normal setup should help the OP figure out if something is just assembled wrong, or bent.

First, that crank with the split on the bottom normally sits completely under the tension disks and only separates then when you raise the feet via the hand lifter knob or foot lifter pedal. However, if the presser bar is binding in the top pressure spring adjuster (the one on the very top, with the hollow threaded screw), it can hang up higher than normal. Twist the pressure adjuster a little and see if the presser foot drops down some more. If the hole in the adjuster was drilled off of dead center, binding could happen. Emory cloth, or a close fit drill bit may clear up that alignment problem. I had to do that to my machine's pressure adjuster.

Until then, second first problem I see in Cleanview's photo is that the thread guide seems to be up too high. It is even possible that the guide is stopping the separator block from letting go. That happened to me once.

When users remove the faceplate to oil the innards, or to reposition the presser bar or needle bar, we sometimes forget to align the split in the bottom of the tension release crank. I did that two days ago. For a couple of jobs I didn't clue in on why the tension wasn't releasing when I floored the foot lifter pedal. Doh!

[cleanview]

Here are some more pics......sorry I wont have time to work on this and make replies till this evening.

Thanks

[cleanview]

OOPS....don't forget that I am knew to machines. I just realized the presser foot was raised and that releases the pressure on the disc. oober mistake on my part.

[Wizcrafts]

I thought that the rod in the back looked engaged. Let the foot down all the way. If it binds, twist the top adjuster to free it up. The lowered presser lifter should allow the outside to to go all the way down to the throat plate.

[cleanview]

Ok. out of this embarrassing learning mistake .........I learned more of what happens when the presser foot is raised. learning as we go but sometimes embarrassing myself in the process

yes wizcraft is does.

Thanks again

[JLSleather]

The foot pedal is SUPPOSED to drive those discs apart to allow you to pull thread. If it's hanging up, check where the lift chain goes through the casting to see if it's hanging up there. Probably a kick or wiggle of the pedal will free it up. Until you have that solved, the tension is NEVER going to be right.

One thing from your pics.. is that thread routed correctly? On the first guide and tension disc set (where you labeled #1), mine would go through the pigtail (wire) around the tension discs, the BACK THROUGH the pigtail before going down towards the next section. Somebody with that machine chime in -- mine isn't the same and I don't want to have you changing what was already right!

HAVING watched the video of Bob setting up a [very] similar machine, perhaps your thread path is correct. Maybe worth noting, looks like your lift chain is OUTSIDE the drive shaft, but Bob's is INSIDE - between the shaft and the casting. BOTH RIGHT?

Edited December 14, 2014 by JLSleather

[Wizcrafts]

JLS is right. The lifter chain on my machine is inside, between the axle and the body. Make sure that with the arrangement you now have that the chain allows the foot to go all the way up and all the way down. The crank that the chain attaches to on top must not be interfered with by the axle. The floor lift pedal should go all the way down, starting with the heel down. There should only be a small amount of free motion before the lifter engages and begins lifting the foot. The maximum lift is supposed to clear the bottom of the needle. Sometimes that doesn't quite happen. It only becomes an issue if you need to sew 7/8 inch of leather.

If the foot lifter chain twists, or makes a sharp angle from the hole in the base, it could bind. Keep the links in line with each other and try to maintain the straightest line feeding up.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Wizcrafts

[pcox]

Your thread path and foot lifter chain are correct. FYI to whom it may concern the 3200 Cowboy is a little different than the 3500 & 4500 Cowboy,cobra 4 ETC. Did the heat shrink tubing fix your problem?

[TwinOaks]

OOPS....don't forget that I am knew to machines. I just realized the presser foot was raised and that releases the pressure on the disc. oober mistake on my part.

glad you got that sorted out. And it looks like I'm re-learning sewing machine diagnostics!

[cleanview]

A very good learning experience from all the posts here. I really apprecite it.

I just sewed the below pic which in all honesty is the first one that I have been happy with. Let me know if you see any thing wrong in it?

Edited December 15, 2014 by cleanview

[TwinOaks]

Well, YES, there is something wrong there: The picture seems to be tilted a little to the right.

And...it looks like the center foot pressure is a little too high for that thickness. That's a simple adjustment of perhaps only 1/4 turn. Looks great, and I'm glad to see you got it sewing.

[cleanview]

Thanks ....it is great to make progress

To be clear, your saying adjust the walking foot downward a little?

BUT I am so curious how do you know that from a picture? What is the indicator? It amazes me how much someone more experienced can see stuff like that in a picture (I know it will come in time)

The below pictures are the same holster folded over to make the avenger. The machine seem to suck the bottom thread in to the leather good when the bottom is flesh side but not so good when the bottom is the grain side. Is there a way to correct that. This is better than usual. The worst is when I sew to 2 ounce pieces together (the pic is to 8 ounce pieces)

Edited December 15, 2014 by cleanview

[TwinOaks]

I'm saying relieve the downward pressure on the walking foot. The indicator is the 'track' or indentions left by the foot.

The reason the thread doesn't pull up as tightly through the grain side is that the grain side is stronger and more dense than the flesh side. This is just a tension adjustment - make an 1/8th turn (at a time) tighter on the primary tensioner to pull the knot a little higher.

The right hand pic also shows 'too much pressure' on the walking foot....the leather is pushed out a little bit. That's where the pressure from the top pushed the leather down into the slot plate a little bit. Even though the marks are there you can roll or hammer them out- a light spray of water, and even pressure (rolling or modelling spoon) or light taps with a smooth faced hammer.

The reason that sewing (2) 2oz pieces looks bad is that it's too thin to be sewing with that machine....in it's current settings. Most leather workers that go to a powered machine end up with at least 2, often 3 machines. This is because it's more time efficient to have one machine for thinner leathers and one for the thick stuff than it is to make all the adjustments to have one machine sewing everything. [all you Adler owners can just hush] It's fairly easy to change needles and threads, and in many cases the thread tensions will stay relative, but you still need to adjust foot pressures, foot lift height, stitch length, etc. Not a LOT of adjustments, mind you, but some - think of it as 'fine tuning' the machine to the project. If you sew the majority of things in the same thickness range you can find a happy medium...but getting out of that range means adjustment. In the example above, your machine is barely pulling the stitches inside of piece of 8oz leather. You'd need to increase tension to lift the thread to ~1/8th" to be in the center of the two pieces...with 2oz leather, you're 'target zone' is 1/32nd...and in that size you're talking about a 'target zone' of 2 or 3 thread thicknesses. This is why most of the time, lighter leather is sewn with smaller thread. It also just looks better.

Make a mark on the thread tensioner nuts so that you have an index point....then start playing with scraps. You may be surprised to see how much difference a 1/4 or even 1/8th turn on the tension nut makes. Incidentally.....try sewing some 2 oz stuff with the way it's sitting - it might work well considering how low the knot is. Now, record the settings on a little note pad....ex. 8oz total thicknes... Tensioner 1 - 3 threads showing, index at 11:00, T2 3 threads showing index at 9:00. Do that with a couple of different ranges and you'll have your starting points. And if you can, always sew a test strip first, so you can make any fine adjustments to that specific thickness.

[cleanview]

thanks so very much. Very informative. Some of these things are very eye opening to a beginner. What you just said really opens up why things do what they do.

More to play with this evening. Right now I spend far to much time experimenting but know that it will be well worth it in time.

I have used 138 thread in the "skinny" holster that I make and it works better. I really need to play with fine tuning to get the over all look that I want