are you shopping this christmas

[jwwright]

townfire...........Thanks for your knowledge shared.

GotoTex...........I won't get involved in the political side of it here, because it would be pointless. I don't think anyone's mind would be changed. I will say that you are sure right about Ebay right now. I usually sell several quality used saddles on Ebay each year, along with some bit and spur trading I do. I also have sold 2 new saddles I made on Ebay this year. Right now...........Ebay is super slow for anything of good quality, and carrying the appropriate price tag. The low quality / price stuff is always there. I have visited with several other saddle & gear makers that have also seen new orders slowing down.......some more than others. I think folks are just scared to spend their extra money on big ticket items right now........thinking they sure might need that extra cash for necessities in the near future.

Gotta get back to the shop, and keep trying to make a living in this Republican economy.......hehehe. JW

[jbird]

Nice summing up Michael, I enjoy an articulate man's opinion - and good on you, Josh; IMHO that is exactly what the forum is about.

..and was that another 1p worth from you CL? - Ole' Josh is going to end up a rich man at this rate! (oops...)

Wait Ray let me get my calculater and see what the total is LOL.

P.S. I am never going to live that one down.

Josh

[Go2Tex]

Sorry senor... You are free to call money/debt/credit anything you want. It will not change the fact that it is what it is.

Credit (debt) and money are fungible - they spend identically in the economy. Can a store tell the difference between a $50 dollar bill and $50 dollars of credit? NO, other than physical properties and other agreements there is NO difference. The $50 bill or credit spends the exact same. That is because the $50 dollar bill IS in fact credit (debt); it is a bond of indefinite duration carrying zero interest written against the aggregate wealth and production of The United States.

I'm not trying to over-complicate things, they are what they are. As a country we need to pull our collective heads out of the sand and learn. We have been duped into thinking financial markets are overly complicated, the powers that be want you kept in the dark.

And you are also free to call it anything you want if it makes it easier for you to understand how it all works, but as you just said, all money is ultimately backed up by hard wealth, gold at Fort Knox. So, credit/debt and cash may spend the same but unless you get your credit/debt interest free, it is NOT the same. It's actually worth less because you have to pay extra to spend it. In that respect they are not equal and therefore not the same.

For the life of me I can't figure out why calling all money debt makes the mess more clear. But that's just me.

As for degrading anyone's class or social status Jbird...... Look, merely pointing out that folks who live off the public dole generally don't make wise spending decisions with the money they're given is just a well established fact of life. If that offends, then I'm sorry. The truth hurts sometimes. But that's why I don't like Comrad Uncle Samski coming after me for more of mine to spread around. I believe in a hand up, not a hand out.

Anyhow, gotta go make a beer run..........

[Hilly]

In answer to the original question in this thread: No, I don't intend on doing much if any shopping this Christmas. The in-laws have decided to not buy gifts this year, but the entire clan always gets together for a huge feed and a most wonderful day of celebration of the holidays.

My side of the relation is very small, and I can make everyone something they will like and use this year. To tell the truth, my side of the family has had past Christmas' where the only gifts allowed have been something hand made. Whether it's just a batch of someone's favorite cookies, to home decor items, to wearables, to practical stuff, it doesn't matter. What matters is that you put something of yourself into your work. We're all so sick and tired of the commercialism of Christmas that we've decided not to participate in that aspect of it any more. We've even gone so far as to use brown paper for gift wrap and hand made gift tags.

I also feel that Christmas doesn't just have to be in December. My husband and I often give each other little gifts all year long "just because". Does this mean we're just getting Scroogey in our old age?

Okay, let me get off my soap box now.

Hilly

[jbird]

Hilly I am of the same mind as you in my family we do a lot the same as you.

Josh

[jbird]

And you are also free to call it anything you want if it makes it easier for you to understand how it all works, but as you just said, all money is ultimately backed up by hard wealth, gold at Fort Knox. So, credit/debt and cash may spend the same but unless you get your credit/debt interest free, it is NOT the same. It's actually worth less because you have to pay extra to spend it. In that respect they are not equal and therefore not the same.

For the life of me I can't figure out why calling all money debt makes the mess more clear. But that's just me.

As for degrading anyone's class or social status Jbird...... Look, merely pointing out that folks who live off the public dole generally don't make wise spending decisions with the money they're given is just a well established fact of life. If that offends, then I'm sorry. The truth hurts sometimes. But that's why I don't like Comrad Uncle Samski coming after me for more of mine to spread around. I believe in a hand up, not a hand out.

Anyhow, gotta go make a beer run..........

Go2Tex I was merely saying that those in a lower tax bracket should not all be grouped together as drunken bums and low lives. and some of those public dole are those that have had great jobs and have been fired do to hard times but there spending habits might be as good as yours, I do not believe in hand outs I am against them, people should get what they have earned I have a job and have a nice savings but I am in a lower tax bracket so it hits me the wrong way when people are grouped up just because they don't make as much money.

Josh

Edited November 11, 2008 by jbird

[ttownfire]

And you are also free to call it anything you want if it makes it easier for you to understand how it all works, but as you just said, all money is ultimately backed up by hard wealth, gold at Fort Knox. So, credit/debt and cash may spend the same but unless you get your credit/debt interest free, it is NOT the same. It's actually worth less because you have to pay extra to spend it. In that respect they are not equal and therefore not the same.

For the life of me I can't figure out why calling all money debt makes the mess more clear. But that's just me.

You're wrong, again. I didn't just type some fancy words and call it my opinion. What I wrote is FACT whether you want to believe in it or not. You can't make something up and call it fact without a proper vetting, and your posts fail any semblance of economic understanding.

First, we live under a fiat interest-based monetary system. Google it, as I don't have the room or will to explain it to you here.

Second, One can attempt to "dumb down" certain aspects of any subject. I've tried to do that with the previous posts as the subject is enormously more complex. The simple fact remains, that one still needs a basic understanding of the subject before they truly grasp the "dumb down" version.

Third, nothing in the fiat interest-based monetary system is as simple as; Go to work, earn money, deposit money, buy stuff and repeat. You can live and think along those lines, but you must understand that a complex machine lies beneath the surface. Our system is similar to a mechanical watch where behind the face lies a damn complicated machine that is absolutely vital to what you see on the face. I don't know how the Quartz movement works, and unless I'm prepared to spend time learning it, I don't make assumptions or proclamations to what piece does what. You should do the same here, or spend some time learning basic economics.

[Go2Tex]

You're wrong, again. I didn't just type some fancy words and call it my opinion. What I wrote is FACT whether you want to believe in it or not. You can't make something up and call it fact without a proper vetting, and your posts fail any semblance of economic understanding.

First, we live under a fiat interest-based monetary system. Google it, as I don't have the room or will to explain it to you here.

Second, One can attempt to "dumb down" certain aspects of any subject. I've tried to do that with the previous posts as the subject is enormously more complex. The simple fact remains, that one still needs a basic understanding of the subject before they truly grasp the "dumb down" version.

Third, nothing in the fiat interest-based monetary system is as simple as; Go to work, earn money, deposit money, buy stuff and repeat. You can live and think along those lines, but you must understand that a complex machine lies beneath the surface. Our system is similar to a mechanical watch where behind the face lies a damn complicated machine that is absolutely vital to what you see on the face. I don't know how the Quartz movement works, and unless I'm prepared to spend time learning it, I don't make assumptions or proclamations to what piece does what. You should do the same here, or spend some time learning basic economics.

[/quote

Well, right now your "finely tuned enormously complex monetary system" is about as broke as it can be and I believe largely due to the fact that guys like you can regurgitate nonsense like "all money is debt" but for some reason you can't figure out how to fix it. Maybe it's just so complex that even you brilliant economists don't know how it works either. I hope I didn't dumb that down too much for ya.

I'll give you the last word on it..........fire away professor.

[ttownfire]

Well, right now your "finely tuned enormously complex monetary system" is about as broke as it can be and I believe largely due to the fact that guys like you can regurgitate nonsense like "all money is debt" but for some reason you can't figure out how to fix it. Maybe it's just so complex that even you brilliant economists don't know how it works either. I hope I didn't dumb that down too much for ya.

I'll give you the last word on it..........fire away professor.

Wow. Settle down man. The system is not broken because I know proper economic terminology and how it applies to everyday situations, sorry. If you take Accounting 101 you'll find a lot of things that don't make sense, namely debits and credits (at least they were hard for me to grasp). That doesn't make your professor an idiot. Likewise, I didn't invent the system, I just play in it.

The economic level of understanding in the USA is abysmally low at all socio-economic levels. The "broken system" is largely due to the fact that the vast MAJORITY of American's have no clue about money, interest, credit and debt. Brilliant economists, to which there are very few, are trying to fix the problem as it were.

Unfortunately, the "fix" will become painfully obvious to you and me in the near future. The function and definition of a fiat interest-based monetary system will still be the same. And the gold standard which was abolished last century, will still be a distant memory. You can choose to participate or not, the game and its rules are published.

[Denise]

I think one thing everyone will agree on is that economics is a very complicated subject and if there was an easy answer to the current situation, it would have been implemented by now. In the meantime, the rest of us need to figure out how best to weather the storm. Since the tone of this thread has strayed from the normal friendly conversations on LW, as a moderator I am (clears throat) “requesting” that the topic go back to the original question of Christmas sales and how to best meet the market that may or may not be there. That discussion will be more profitable for everyone at this time. Thank you.