Leatherwork And Crypto Currencies

[Beaverslayer]

Hello all, It's been quite some time since I've been here on the forum, I do follow as much as I can on Facebook and Twitter though, and am impressed with all the new talent that is here.

The main reason I am not doing leatherwork any longer, is that my eyesight is not very good any longer and I also have trouble holding the tools in my old hands. I would dearly love to be able to not only pound leather but lace it all together like I used too.

The reason I am posting here in "Marketing and Advertising" is that for the last year or so I have been heavily involved in the Crypto Currency world. Bitcoin and many of the "Alt Coins" as they are called. Bitcoin has grown a great deal over the last year, and many new things have been created with Bitcoin being the reason.

I have envisioned a great marketing opportunity for all of you leatherworkers to at least consider as another way of increasing exposure and also sales of your work. Bitcoin is now widely accepted by many mainstream online (as well as brick and mortor) business's as a means of payment for goods and services. Even Microsoft accepts Bitcoins.

Now, some of you I imagin are thinking "Magical Internet Money" well in some respect, that's exactly what Bitcoin is, but it is real and it is money. Thousands of people every day are buying real things with it. The thing that I've found most interesting regarding Bitcoin as well as some of the other Altcoins (Dogecoin for example) is that people who have them are much more likely to buy something from a business that accepts Bitcoin than one that does not.

Now, Bitcoin can be a real headache to get involved in and can be quite confussing if you aren't very computer literate and all. But, as I said previously, things are changing. There is now a company that makes it all real simple, just like email and this forum. The company is called Xapo, and by opening an account with them, you nbow will have a Bitcoin wallet that you are able to accept and spend Bitcoins from. They also have a Bitcoin ATM card that you can get, and with this ATM card you are able to spend your Bitcoins just like you spend your cash with your bank ATM.

One of the really great features of Bitcoin, is the transaction costs. Basically they are non existant. A little over a month ago, there was a transfer of 81 MILLION US dollars worth of Bitcoins transfered in one transaction across the world. This transaction made financial history, as it only took 30 minutes in total time to complete. The most astounding thing about this transaction was, that it only cost FOUR CENTS to complete it. Phone your bank and ask them what it would cost and how long it would take to transfer that kind of money around the world, much less across the USA.

Okay then, here's my thinking on how you as leatherworkers can capitalize on the Bitcoin market.

#1: Open an Xapo account and create a Bitcoin wallet and order the ATM card. Here's is the link for them.

http://xapo.com/r/01LD3EW

#2: Set up a Twitter account and follow people that are also involved with Bitcoin and other crypto currencies.

https://twitter.com

#3: If you use Facebook, search for Bitcoin groups and "Like" or "Join" some of them.

Once you have done this, then you start to post pics of your work on Twitter and Facebook groups. Be sure to let everyone know that you accept Bitcoin as payment for your work. On Twitter when you post a pic of your work, be sure to add "Hash Tags" like #Bitcoin and #BTC, this will then link your pictures and tweets to anyone that is searching out Bitcoin or BTC. Just to give you an idea at how pwerful and usefull hash tags are, a little while ago a lady here in Calgary (where I live) posted a picture of a small dog she was elling for $15,000 she Tweeted that she was selling this dog and added the hashtag #ParisHilton to it. Within just a few minutes, Paris Hilton saw this Tweet and bought the dog. A month later Paris Hilton bought another dog off the same lady for $25,000....all because of a hashtag on a Twitter tweet.

I can imagine that some of you are still thinking "Magical Internet Money" still. Well, to give you an idea as to how big Bitcoin is getting, the Winklevoss twins (from Facebook fame) have heavily invested into Bitcoin and are almost ready to open an exchange that is tied into NASDAQ to trade Bitcoins. There are many many other companies that have had big investors put up hundreds of millions of dollars as startup capital for Bitcoin related companies.

Bitcoin is a viable alterantive to normal currency (Fiat) and this is the ground floor right now, just like back when email and AOL first came about.

If any of you decide that you are interested in this way of marketing your leatherwork and are not too sure as to how it all works, feel free to contact me and I will endeavor to help you out. If you are already on Twitter, follow me @Beaverslayer1 and I will retweet all of your pics to the Bitcoiners that I follow as well as help you out determining which ones to follow as well.

Thanks for your time reading this long post.

Beaverslayer

[Matt T]

I think crypto currencies are the future, BUT.. right now there is still a lot of risk in this space, without a whole lot of benefit to someone who isn't doing something illegal. The value of a bitcoin has fluctuated wildly, and has gradually decreased in value from around 1,000 to 283 today. Those large companies accepting bitcoin are not accumulating the coins; they are using exchanges to quickly convert them to another currency such as USD. The exchanges charge a fee for this service. The Xapo service you are affiliated with does not provide a mechanism for converting to another currency, aside from a debit card; which is not permitted for anyone in the USA.

[TwinOaks]

One FIAT currency is NOT a viable alternative to another FIAT currency. Before arguing that it is, be prepared to say what commodity is backing up the bitcoin.

[cgleathercraft]

If hindsight were foresight with a tiny investment of $100 USD (0.05 per coin) when bitcoin first started there was potential to have well into the millions ($1.9 Million +- ) IF sold at the right time. The ground floor for bitcoin, in my opinion, was between 2010 and 2012. After that the boom hit and the price skyrocketed. Now the market has been tarnished by several widely publicized seizures of sites dealing in various items and services that are illegal in nature. As a person who works in the tech sector in my day job and seeing the fluctuations of crackdowns by several governments getting ever more frequent I ---personally--- feel that bitcoin is not right for me. I"m not saying that it shouldn't be used, just I don't feel secure putting my money into such a virtual market. I agree with Matt T - the only viable way for me to get into ANY crypto currency is to be able to immediately convert it to USD and deposit it into my bank account.

The suggestions to use instagram/twitter/facebook/any social media, is an excellent idea and is sure to gain exposure and sales, even without the use of bitcoin.

I encourage someone to try and convince me otherwise, however, it took me a long time to pick up Etsy's card reader so I could accept cards on the go.

[rlpullman]

Bitcoin is a form of barter. There is no threat of Bitcoin or any other cyber currency replacing the U.S. dollar. That is because the IRS only accepts US dollars as payment for taxes. As long as the IRS only accepts US dollars, there will always be a demand for them.

[Beaverslayer]

I think crypto currencies are the future, BUT.. right now there is still a lot of risk in this space, without a whole lot of benefit to someone who isn't doing something illegal. The value of a bitcoin has fluctuated wildly, and has gradually decreased in value from around 1,000 to 283 today. Those large companies accepting bitcoin are not accumulating the coins; they are using exchanges to quickly convert them to another currency such as USD. The exchanges charge a fee for this service. The Xapo service you are affiliated with does not provide a mechanism for converting to another currency, aside from a debit card; which is not permitted for anyone in the USA.

Yes, at present time the Xapo service ATM is not available in the USA, but there are other companies that are available in the USA. The largest one is Coinbase. Coinbase is not just a Bitcoin exchange, but also a merchant gateway that will convert any Bitcoin transactions to US dollars at time of payment and transfer those dollars into your bank account within 2-3 days.

You are also correct in that these exchanges charge a fee to convert/trade your Bitcoins into fiat currency, but most exchanges fee is at most 0.25% (Coinbase is free up to the first $1,000,000.00 of transactions). Credit cards charge upwards of 3.0% of the transaction and we all know how much PayPal and Etsy and E-Bay charge.

With using Bitcoin as a payment "Option" you also do not have to worry of "Charge Backs" like you do with any credit card or PayPal, as once the payment is sent via Bitcoin, that is it...no charge back. If someone you sold an item to contacts PayPal and says that they didn't receive the item, PayPal will freeze your account and almost always side with the person saying they did not receive.

Bitcoin has also been used for nefarious endeavors (Silk Road drug/gun sales) but you have to admit that fiat currency has and always will be used for this type of purchase, Bitcoin is no different in that respect.

By using a Bitcoin service such as Coinbase, your exposure to the volatile price swings of Bitcoin are greatly reduced.

I am by no means saying drop everything and jump on the Bitcoin band wagon, what I am saying is, this is the ground floor and the millions of people who do use Bitcoin every day are more than likely to purchase a custom made leather product if they can use thier Bitcoins to do so.

[Beaverslayer]

One FIAT currency is NOT a viable alternative to another FIAT currency. Before arguing that it is, be prepared to say what commodity is backing up the bitcoin.

TwinOaks, first off, Bitcoin is in no way a "Fiat" currency, it is the farthest thing away from any fiat you can think of. Bitcoin is not backed by any commodity, nor is it backed by any Government, it is backed by the technology and the ecosystem that has developed around it over the last 5 years.

The US dollar is a "Fiat" currency and is NOT backed by ANY commodity either, it is backed by the Federal Reserve Bank and they at any time they so desire can and will just print more of it as they see fit. Bitcoin has a "Preset Mathematically determined" ammount that will ever be available. This ammount can never be changed or added to, unlike any Fiat currency.

As I said in my post above, Bitcoin is an alternative means of generating sales, with a viable and less costly way of payment compared to Fiat or credit card/PayPal type payments.

[Beaverslayer]

Bitcoin is a form of barter. There is no threat of Bitcoin or any other cyber currency replacing the U.S. dollar. That is because the IRS only accepts US dollars as payment for taxes. As long as the IRS only accepts US dollars, there will always be a demand for them.

According to the IRS Bitcoin is a "Commodity" and is taxable in the USA as a "Capital Gain" should you buy and sell them for profit/loss. In the stae of California, Bitcoin is classified as a "Currency".

Bitcoin will not replace US dollars or any other Fiat currency any time soon, but, it is a viable payment method that millions of people throughout the world are using every day to purchase goods and services with.

[cgleathercraft]

Well I've gained enough interest to poke around (about the same interest as the stock market) but haven't found the information i'm looking for. In order for me to consider Bitcoin as a possible form of payment I will need to be sure of a few things first.

1. Taxes. How would I go about reporting the income? What happens should I decide not to convert them to USD and simply pay with them? You mentioned California considers them currency and taxable but I don't want the IRS breathing down my neck for ANY reason. Bitcoin related or not.

2. Pricing. Do I price an item with Bitcoin or with USD? Bitcoin can jump or fall rather quickly. I'd rather not get into the issue of charging 1 coin for a project and during the time of construction the value takes a nose dive. The same would go for a project where the value goes up and the customer expects more even after payment (assuming payment comes up front)

3. Receiving of funds. Should I receive payment in this form it needs to be transferable to my bank account on the same or next business day. That's how it works with credit/debit cards and I see no reason why I should expect any different.

4. Security. Since the creation of Bitcoins their value has jumped from $0.05 USD to almost $980 USD then has fallen quite a bit. According to Google the current value is 229.28. This makes a big difference if I decided to accept the payment today but the value tanks tomorrow before I can get my money. Over the past 3 months the value of bitcoins has steadily dropped. Source: http://www.coindesk.com/price/.

5. Usage. Know of any providers that accept Bitcoin for leather supplies? If i'm receiving it for my work I might as well be able to buy the materials with it too. I like to keep my money separate that way i'm not jumping into the household income for leather and vice versa.

I'm not feeling that my already hard-to-come-by hard-earned money would be wisely invested in bitcoin.

For the record I feel the same about my 401K and company stock purchase plan. But I refuse to pull that money out and pay the huge tax penalty until I absolutely have to.

[Beaverslayer]

Well I've gained enough interest to poke around (about the same interest as the stock market) but haven't found the information i'm looking for. In order for me to consider Bitcoin as a possible form of payment I will need to be sure of a few things first.

1. Taxes. How would I go about reporting the income? What happens should I decide not to convert them to USD and simply pay with them? You mentioned California considers them currency and taxable but I don't want the IRS breathing down my neck for ANY reason. Bitcoin related or not.

2. Pricing. Do I price an item with Bitcoin or with USD? Bitcoin can jump or fall rather quickly. I'd rather not get into the issue of charging 1 coin for a project and during the time of construction the value takes a nose dive. The same would go for a project where the value goes up and the customer expects more even after payment (assuming payment comes up front)

3. Receiving of funds. Should I receive payment in this form it needs to be transferable to my bank account on the same or next business day. That's how it works with credit/debit cards and I see no reason why I should expect any different.

4. Security. Since the creation of Bitcoins their value has jumped from $0.05 USD to almost $980 USD then has fallen quite a bit. According to Google the current value is 229.28. This makes a big difference if I decided to accept the payment today but the value tanks tomorrow before I can get my money. Over the past 3 months the value of bitcoins has steadily dropped. Source: http://www.coindesk.com/price/.

5. Usage. Know of any providers that accept Bitcoin for leather supplies? If i'm receiving it for my work I might as well be able to buy the materials with it too. I like to keep my money separate that way i'm not jumping into the household income for leather and vice versa.

I'm not feeling that my already hard-to-come-by hard-earned money would be wisely invested in bitcoin.

For the record I feel the same about my 401K and company stock purchase plan. But I refuse to pull that money out and pay the huge tax penalty until I absolutely have to.

Regarding the taxes, I'm in no way capable of saying exactly how you would be taxed, as I am a Canadian and our tax laws are far different than yours and our version of the IRS are far more easy to get along with.

In regards to pricing, you would still price your goods in US dollars and by using a service such as Coinbase, the customer would be charged the equivalent amount of Bitcoin at time of checkout. This amount of Bitcoin would then be converted to US dollars within a few minutes so you would not be susceptible to any major price drop/rise of Bitcoin. Coinbase would then transfer the US dollars to your bank account.

As I've said above, if you use a service such as Coinbase (or any of a number of others available) the Bitcoins are converted to US dollars right away and this is then transfered to your bank just like any credit card service does. The difference being though, is that the credit card company/PayPal and such will charge you anywhere from 2% to 3.5% plus a transaction charge, where Coinbase for example only charges 0.1% I believe for the transfer to your bank, and there is no charge for the Bitcoin acceptance up to $1,000,000.00 US dollars.

As of yet, I do not know of any "Leather" suppliers that accept Bitcoin, just companies like Overstock and Amazon and a few others like them. Should a number of leather workers start to accept Bitcoin, then I would be available to try and get leather supply companies involved in Bitcoin as well.

When it comes to investing, I am not saying to "Invest" in Bitcoin or any of the many other "Altcoins" out there, as this is no different than playing the stock market, and unless you have big brass B's, and constantly watch the markets, Bitcoin is not the type of thing to invest in. I spend quite a bit of time "Day Trading" Altcoins and converting them to Bitcoins and this can tend to be almost like a full time job sometimes.

But as far as accepting Bitcoin as an alternative payment method, what I'm saying is there is a very good chance to open up a completely new market for active leatherworkers.

For example, when Dogecoin (an Alt Coin) was first introduced in December 2013, the Dogecoin community grew faster than any other on-line community in the history of the Internet in just over a month. They took it upon themselves to raise the necessary funds (via Dogecoin) donations to send the Jamaican Bobsled team to the Winter Olympics. They also raised large amounts for water wells in Africa. This in turn created a whole new market for Dogecoin related items, and people that had Dogecoins wanted to buy things that they could pay for with them. If the item had a picture of the Dogecoin logo on it, it was a sure fire sell.

I can see people that are involved with Bitcoin would be very inclined to buy a hand made wallet with the Bitcoin logo tooled on it, as the "Wallet" is a major part of the Bitcoin technology. Bitcoin belts would also be a big item, as well as Bitcoin key chains.

[Tramps Leatherworking]

I have yet to hear ONE good reason why I would want to get involved in this versus cold hard cash --- I have absolutely zero issues with customers paying me cash money!

[TwinOaks]

Bitcoin is dead article

That is not the only one; there have been multiple 'obituaries' for Bitcoin, and all of them have been proven false as Bitcoin is still operating. If anyone wants to try it, well I'm all for innovation. This is the second time I've seen someone touting the wonders of Bitcoin, yet I'm still not moved to consider it. I can see some of the appeal of the system, but personally it feels like 'magical thinking'. There are several articles which just plainly say that 'bitcoin mining' has a negative return. It uses more value in electricity than it produces. I'll leave the speculation of it's legitimacy, speculation of it's monetary value, and acceptance of it's use to others more inclined and qualified. I see several large risks to it, some of which are cited in the article above. So, for me, it doesn't appear to be worth the risk. Ken, thank you for bringing the topic to the table; I'm just too grounded in the physical world to believe in 'magical internet money'.

I do see the comparison between bitcoin and other electronic transactions- i.e. I go to work, get paid with direct deposit, and purchase something with a debit card. The difference is that I've been in situations - post Hurricane Ivan, and post Hurricane Katrina (I lived on the Alabama coast at the time and worked several post-storm reconstruction efforts) - where there was NO electricity. A similar thing happened here in North Alabama several years ago - a line of tornadoes damaged some power grid infrastructure. In both cases, there were NO electronic transfers AT ALL......and since bitcoin is completely digital, it's really hard to hand someone a bitcoin to buy a sandwich or a bottle of water.

Plus, with multiple law enforcement agencies scrutinizing it because it's very popular for black market or other illegal transactions, I prefer to just stay away from it.

[Beaverslayer]

TwinOaks, I respect your opinions regarding Bitcoin and was very skeptical myself for quite some time.

Yes there have been some very large thefts of Bitcoins over the last year or so in the Bitcoin world, no different than there have been some very large thefts of fiat currency or major ponzi schemes. There has been some major investigations and arrests of Bitcoin people who had created and run the Silk Road 1 and 2 because of drug sales and such.

Every day of the week, and in pretty much every city on Earth, someone is being arrested for selling drugs or guns and accepting Fiat/Cash as payment, this will never change. Any currency whether it's hard cash, paper check, credit card or digital will be used by the criminals of the world.

The most important thing about Bitcoin, is the technology behind it. Unlike credit cards, Bitcoin is decentralized, there is no central computer that stores all the holders information that can be hacked/exploited. Remember the Target hack? This cannot be done with Bitcoin. Yes Bitcoins can be stolen/hacked if you do not secure them with a strong password, but your personal information will never be stolen like with Target.

Another thing is the cost of transactions, this alone will save many companies vast amounts of money each year on credit card transaction fees. For example, you sell something for $100.00 and the person pays you via credit card. If you use Square, then they will charge 2.75% of that $100.00 for the transaction. If that same person payed in Bitcoin, they would pay 0.00020000 of a Bitcoin to transfer $100.00 worth of Bitcoin to you (that is approx. $0.03 at present) Then you as the receiver want to convert that to US cold hard cash as quick as possible so you use a service like CoinBase. CoinBase will charge you 0.1% yes that is 9 points UNDER one percent to convert the Bitcoin to cold hard cash and deposit it into your bank account.

You mention Hurricane Katrina and other disasters, this brings to mind a very interesting fact. In the world today there is a bit over 7 Billion people living on Earth. Of those 7+ billion people, close to 6 Billion of them are what is classified as "Un Banked" this means they have no access to conventional banking. Bill Gates (Microsoft fame/worlds riches man) is highly involved with M-Pesa which is a "Digital Currency" in Africa. M-Pesa is exactly the same as Bitcoin and every African that uses it, does so with a cell phone.

Bitcoin can and does get used every day throughout the entire world by people using their cell phones as the means to pay with Bitcoin. I buy coffee and donuts every day with Bitcoin at a local coffee shop, they also have a Bitcoin ATM in their lobby. During any disaster, as long as you have a smart phone and the battery has juice in it, you will be able to use Bitcoins.

The person/people who created Bitcoin did so because of the vast amount of people who are unbanked in the world and because of the way the world governments can just do what they want with fiat currency. Look at what happened in Zimbabwe (here's a good article on that fiasco http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703730804576314953091790360 ). This is the main reason governments are so afraid of Bitcoin, but most are starting to accept the fact that Bitcoin is viable and is needed.

The Royal Bank of Canada (Canada's largest bank) is currently working on using the Bitcoin technology to eliminate the paper check here in Canada. What this will do once it is implemented is, there will be no more "Bouncing" checks and no more "Forged" checks. It's impossible to "Forge" a Bitcoin, just can't be done. There is no such thing as a counterfeit Bitcoin....just can't be done.

One more interesting thing regarding Bitcoin compared to Fiat currencies. Back in 2013 I believe, in the country of Cypress. The government was in dire straights and in need of billions of dollars to secure EU debt financing. What the government did there, was they closed down ALL the banks and then TOOK ALL the money that was on deposit at the countries second largest bank...just took it without any recourse to the people who owned the money. If the government decided to do something like this here where we live (highly unlikely but possible) and you held your money in Bitcoin, it would not matter if they closed the banks and took all the fiat currency.

On the internet as well as in many main stream media publications, you are going to find stories saying how bad and dangerous Bitcoin is, you will also find stories about how great and useful it is as well, no different than all the media and differing opinions on the Keystone XL pipeline and Alberta Oil Sands oil. It's very important to research anything whether it be Bitcoin, a new pipeline or which leather sewing machine you will need to do the job. My whole intention here is not to promote everyone into becoming a Libertarian and denounce fiat currency and take up Bitcoin, my intention is to bring to the leather community another viable means of gaining a larger market for their leather work.

[TwinOaks]

During any disaster, as long as you have a smart phone and the battery has juice in it, you will be able to use Bitcoins.

My whole intention here is not to promote everyone into becoming a Libertarian and denounce fiat currency and take up Bitcoin, my intention is to bring to the leather community another viable means of gaining a larger market for their leather work.

Just an interesting note on the first piece quoted- One of the tornadoes damaged the high tension power lines from Browns Ferry NPP....it safely SCRAMed, but that also left the whole area with no power. After 24-36 hrs, the batttery backups for all the cell towers started failing, which meant that any comms that weren't 'peer to peer', were useless. The phones themselves were working, but the towers to which they connected weren't....so, no calls. Even land lines are run through electronic multiplexers these days, not hard wired back to the central office. That left only two comm types for this area - satellite, and (HAM) radio. The sat comms might be a viable transaction method, provided the other end of the transaction still has power.

For part two of the quote- Thank you for bringing this topic up. There are members here from just about every nation, and places where BC is accepted/used, it's certainly worth having every option of serving our customer base. Perhaps for some folks who deal internationally, this could open new avenues of revenue. My vote? Keep it up.

[Beaverslayer]

TwinOaks, it's interesting that you mention the part about satelite links, there is a company that is presently working on building and launching a satelite just for this reason. I'm not sure exactly how it all works, whether you'd need a sat phone or just a normal smart cell phone or not. There is so much development going on right now in the Bitcoin/Altcoin world. I think the main reason behind so much development, is the fact that it is all open source, so if you know how to program software, you can easily get involved.

Regarding the "International" customers and leatherworkers, Bitcoin reduces the cost of international money transfers greatly compared to conventional methods. As I said earlier, one man/woman (no way of knowing who) sent a bit over 81 Million dollars worth of Bitcoin in one transaction at a cost of only four cents. The transaction took a bit over 10 minutes to complete, this is unheard of in the international let alone the local money transfer world.

The part about the "Un Banked" of the world, is that whether you use Bitcoin or M-Pesa in Africa, you essentially have a "Bank" of your very own right there in your cell phone. You own the bank, not some big corporation or government...you own it.

[Beaverslayer]

Here's a link to a very resourceful site on Bitcoin that will help you to better understand all the benefits of Bitcoin.

http://enjoybitcoins.com/bitcoin-resources/

[leatherwytch]

I hate to say this, it is all clear as mud to me. I am one of those hands on type of people. I need to personally see how it works. Just the thing right now is I can't go to coop and use it, I can't pay my rent, buy my leather or take the cats to the vet, or fill the car with gas with it so I need to know how it will benefit me.

I have heard of bit coins and that they mainly started in Europe. I just can't get a handle on this without seeing it in action. I need to know what currency is it equal too. If I sell someone a belt for $225.USD would bit coin equal that or would it be $225. million. for bit coin or $2.25.

I was involved with Calgary Dollars but the big issue is that most people selling things with that were just junk out of their houses. My stuff is new and most did not have the calgary dollars to match the price and would not pay 75% in cold hard cash. With Calgary Dollars I could not buy leather, use it for gas, shop at the stores, give it to the vet or pay my rent with it either.

[Tramps Leatherworking]

I hate to say this, it is all clear as mud to me. I am one of those hands on type of people. I need to personally see how it works. Just the thing right now is I can't go to coop and use it, I can't pay my rent, buy my leather or take the cats to the vet, or fill the car with gas with it so I need to know how it will benefit me.

I have heard of bit coins and that they mainly started in Europe. I just can't get a handle on this without seeing it in action. I need to know what currency is it equal too. If I sell someone a belt for $225.USD would bit coin equal that or would it be $225. million. for bit coin or $2.25.

I was involved with Calgary Dollars but the big issue is that most people selling things with that were just junk out of their houses. My stuff is new and most did not have the calgary dollars to match the price and would not pay 75% in cold hard cash. With Calgary Dollars I could not buy leather, use it for gas, shop at the stores, give it to the vet or pay my rent with it either.

Wytch, This is extremely risky and the potential for loss is huge, Bitcoin is constantly be pushed because it's value depends on more people getting into the fold... My opinion is this is a bubble that will burst with catastrophic results... Sometimes "no accountability" is not good... (Based on my research --- your opinion may vary)

[Beaverslayer]

I hate to say this, it is all clear as mud to me. I am one of those hands on type of people. I need to personally see how it works. Just the thing right now is I can't go to coop and use it, I can't pay my rent, buy my leather or take the cats to the vet, or fill the car with gas with it so I need to know how it will benefit me.

I have heard of bit coins and that they mainly started in Europe. I just can't get a handle on this without seeing it in action. I need to know what currency is it equal too. If I sell someone a belt for $225.USD would bit coin equal that or would it be $225. million. for bit coin or $2.25.

I was involved with Calgary Dollars but the big issue is that most people selling things with that were just junk out of their houses. My stuff is new and most did not have the calgary dollars to match the price and would not pay 75% in cold hard cash. With Calgary Dollars I could not buy leather, use it for gas, shop at the stores, give it to the vet or pay my rent with it either.

leatherwytch,

You being from Calgary are one of the luckier ones as there is a "Brick and Mortar" store that deals only in Bitcoin down on 17th Ave and 10th Street SW. Their name is Bitcoin Brains. I deal with them on a regular basis and they are not only extremely friendly but also extremely helpful.

Here's a link to their website: http://bitcoinbrains.com/merchants/

They work with another Calgary based company called CaVirtex which is Canada's largest Bitcoin exchange. CaVirtex offers a POS system for people looking to accept Bitcoins for purchases. This service is exactly the same as PayPal, Square or any other money/credit processing service except for the fees charged. You are able to see a comparison of those fees on the Bitcoin Brain website.

I don't suggest just accepting Bitcoins on your own, as this can be a somewhat costly thing as the value of a Bitcoin could change before you are able to convert it to Canadian dollars. By utilizing the services of CaVirtex or CoinBase (being in Calgary I would use CaVirtex) once you make a sale for a $225.00 US belt, they customer has the option of paying you via Bitcoin, credit card or PayPal (if you have those options) if they choose Bitcoin, then at the checkout CaVirtex would calculate the amount of Bitcoin required to equate to $225.00 US and that is what they would pay. CaVirtex would then accept their payment in Bitcoin and immediately convert it to US or Canadian dollars depending on which you choose it to.

The funds collected by CaVirtex would then be sent to your bank account. The main thing here is not only are you able to market to people who want to use Bitcoins, you are also getting a POS service such as PayPal at a greatly reduced cost.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Beaverslayer

[Beaverslayer]

Wytch, This is extremely risky and the potential for loss is huge, Bitcoin is constantly be pushed because it's value depends on more people getting into the fold... My opinion is this is a bubble that will burst with catastrophic results... Sometimes "no accountability" is not good... (Based on my research --- your opinion may vary)

Tramps, I respect your opinion on what you think about Bitcoin, and in some way you are correct about the potential for loss. There is a very good potential for loss if you "Hold" the Bitcoins you've gotten from sales in hopes that they increase in value. I DO NOT suggest this and have only ever said to use a service that can convert Bitcoins to your countries currency and deposit those funds into your bank account.

By utilizing a service provider such as CaVirtex, CoinBase or any one of a number of other reputable (and backed by multi million dollar corporations) you are not dealing with "no accountability" these companies are just as accountable as your bank is. The notion that this is some sort of "Bubble" that will burst at any time now is just that "a notion" or your opinion.

There is a reason companies like the New York Stock Exchange, the Winklevoss Twins and Microsoft, Amazon Dot Com, Overstock Dot Com and many other very very large multinational corporations not only investing in Bitcoin but also accepting them as a viable alternative to fiat currency. The biggest and most important of these reasons is the speed of transactions and the cost of those transactions.

When current credit card/PayPal fees are between 2.5% and 3.5% these are savings that go into your bottom line, not some huge multinational corporation.

Another reason, and a very important one, is that Bitcoin is not a "Centralized" service. What this means is that your personal information is not stored anywhere in some large data centre that can be hacked such as Target was. This also means that people cannot hack into the Bitcoin system and steal your identity and run amok with it and make your life a living hell.

By accepting payment in Bitcoin you are also protected by the scammers that do "Charge Backs" on credit card purchases, or the ones on PayPal that register a complaint that the item arrived damaged or didn't arrive at all. PayPal will side with the complainer and "Freeze" your PayPal account until you prove otherwise. With Bitcoin this can never happen.

There are many people who are very skeptical of Bitcoin (as well as anything new like this) and I respect that skepticism (I was skeptical as well) once you realize that Bitcoin isn't just some weird new ponzi scheme or some fancy idea, then you are able to see the advantages of Bitcoin. Bitcoin is no longer looked at as the thing that will bring down fiat currency and the all mighty dollar, it is looked at as an "International" currency built on mathematical technology.

I've spent over a year now learning about Bitcoin and Altcoins to better understand exactly what they are and how they work. I also have been "Day-trading" Altcoins on exchanges just like the stock market. I invested into another computer that "Mines" for Altcoins that I convert to Bitcoins and then sell at Bitcoin Brains here in Calgary. I am able to go to a few coffee shops and buy coffee and donuts with Bitcoin as well as use the Bitcoin ATM's that are here in Calgary.

I spent a number of years doing custom leather work as well as being an active member here on this forum. I know how hard it is to garner new clients and get sales and not have to worry about whether the person is going to pay me. I was always looking for new ways to try to get new customers, whether it be by a website, Etsy or word of mouth...it is not an easy task. What I believe, is that by marketing to the Bitcoin world, you are opening up a whole new avenue of potential customers. Bitcoin people WANT to be able to use their Bitcoins, so why not be on the ground floor and help them spend them?

If I were still doing leather work, I would have no problem whatsoever accepting them as payment.

[Constabulary]

Yet I have not seen a single online shop or other business who is accepting Bitcoin as payment. At least all the shops I buy from regularly, occasionally or randomly do not take bitcoins in the checkout - so why the hell should I accept it? I cannot buy nails, screw, wood, leather, sewing machines, hardware, thread, needles, spare parts or pay my gas or power bills, buy a new car or food...My bank does not take them, I cannot pay Ebay fees...

Maybe I´m buying at the wrong paces - really - do I?

I have to spent my bitcoins somewhere / somewhen, right? Otherwise it makes no sense for me. So where should I spend them?

Yeeehaaaa - I´m a bitcoin millionaire but I cannot spent my money... doesn´t matter I´m a millionaire - yeeehaaaa

This might be a funny thing for the electronicfancyfacebookIphonehankypankywhatsapptwittersmartphone2ndlife based world but not for the world I live in!!! (carp now the world know that I´m from the 70´s)

Just my 2 cents.

[leatherwytch]

So far in Alberta and BC this is what I have found for businesses that accept Bitcoin.

1 Winery in Kelowna

2. sausage shop in Vancouver

3. Restaurant Vancouver

4.A store in Vancouver

5 A Restaurant in Edmonton

This is not something that tells me I must throw my money away for bit coin use. It is probably a great idea but: Tim Horton's, Safeway, Coop, Gas Stations, Car Dealerships,Enmax, Telus, do not recognize this and Stephen Harper wants you to pay your taxes in money, they won't accept bit coin. I can't pay Comicon, Horror Con or any other show I do in bit coin. Right now it is not only not feasible but definitely not logical for me to accept what I can't use.

Now if in the future more larger companies are on board with it then I will consider it but to buy one coin for $247. dollars is not beneficial to me. I am not a millionaire and I can't afford to have my money ties up in something I can not use.

[Beaverslayer]

Yet I have not seen a single online shop or other business who is accepting Bitcoin as payment. At least all the shops I buy from regularly, occasionally or randomly do not take bitcoins in the checkout - so why the hell should I accept it? I cannot buy nails, screw, wood, leather, sewing machines, hardware, thread, needles, spare parts or pay my gas or power bills, buy a new car or food...My bank does not take them, I cannot pay Ebay fees...

Maybe I´m buying at the wrong paces - really - do I?

I have to spent my bitcoins somewhere / somewhen, right? Otherwise it makes no sense for me. So where should I spend them?

Yeeehaaaa - I´m a bitcoin millionaire but I cannot spent my money... doesn´t matter I´m a millionaire - yeeehaaaa

This might be a funny thing for the electronicfancyfacebookIphonehankypankywhatsapptwittersmartphone2ndlife based world but not for the world I live in!!! (carp now the world know that I´m from the 70´s)

Just my 2 cents.

Constabulary,

For starters, there are a vast number of companies online that accept Bitcoin for payments. Here's a short list I have compiled in the last ten minutes.

1. overstock.com

2. Microsoft.com

3. Tiger Direct.com

This company listed allows you to buy almost anything online and pay for it via Bitcoin.

1. all4btc.com

I see from your profile you are from Germany. The German Government was the first Government to declare Bitcoin as "unit of account" or "Private Money". At the present time, there is only one Bitcoin exchange in Germany and I'm unsure if they provide a POS service such as CoinBase does in the USA. (I cannot read German)

One thing you have to understand, I have not said anywhere in this discussion for you to buy your groceries, gas for your car, pay your taxes with Bitcoin, what I have said over and over again, is to accept Bitcoin as payment, convert those Bitcoins to Fiat currency of your Country, and have that Fiat currency deposited into your bank account.

Once you have converted Bitcoin to Fiat and it's been deposited into your bank account, you can then do all those things and even pay your taxes. If you currently accept credit card payments for your products, this is no different than accepting Bitcoin, the credit card company still has to deposit that money into your bank account before you can use it...no difference...

The difference is the cost of the credit card service and the "Centralization" of the personal information required to accept credit cards.

In Germany right now, there is one Bitcoin exchange, it's Bitcoin.de they are the largest Bitcoin exchange in Europe and currently have over 200,000 customers. There is also an online bank called Fidor AG that I think may be involved with Bitcoin, I do know they are involved with another crypto curreny called Ripple, but I can't read German so I can't tell you for sure if they do work in Bitcoin.

The whole point behind me bringing this to the leather work community, is to show you and help you to open up to another new market place for "Custom" leather works. If Bitcoin.de has over 200,000 customers, then this is also a potential 200,000 customers that you could have as well just by accepting Bitcoin as a payment service.

BUT, and I repeat BUT, if you do accept Bitcoins and do get sales from it....IMEDIATELY convert those Bitcoin to Fiat and have that Fiat deposited into your bank account just as you would a credit card payment. Then you can spend it any whare you so desire.

[Constabulary]

Again - none of the CO´s Im buying from is accepting bitcoin - no one ever asked me to do so and why the hell is it me who has to tranfer a virtual currency to a CO that iturns it in to real money? Why don´t bitcoin users turn their moeny into hard currency and then pay me?

Don´t know what this FIAT is - do they tun bitcoins into real moneny for free?

We have SEPA payments in Europe and that is for free I still see no purpose for virtual money.

have to run ... later

[leatherwytch]

Although I am leery of this, it does require a bit more scrutiny on my behalf. If I find it is easy to switch the bit coins to my bank account then I would probably be on board with this. But I must take a deeper look into this.

Edited February 5, 2015 by leatherwytch