Barebone Cost To Veg Tan Hides?

[DavidL]

for pit tanned veg:

Where to buy hair on hide or ready to tan hides?

can a regular artisan splitter be able to split half hides or would one need a full size splitter and how much would a tannery sized splitter cost?

What other machinery or tools are there for flattening and decreasing leather?

What chemicals, oils or fats are necessary?

[stelmackr]

Perhaps these places could help:

http://www.manta.com/world/North+America/Canada/leather_tanning_and_finishing--E806F/

Bob Stelmack

[simontuntelder]

Have you ever been to a tannery?

Edited February 14, 2015 by simontuntelder

[oltoot]

The investment in machines, etc is not small. In addition, tanning produces nasty by-products and getting set up to get permits (if you live in a community) is not small either. The Artisan would not be suitable for working with green hides. That would take a band knife spllitter which you can price on the internet. If you go to developing countries where tanning is still an important local industry, the pits are usually made from clay and are above ground so that every once in awhile they can be broken and drained. In short, why are you even thinking about this in the worst, oops I mean first, place. If it is to save money, forget it. If it is to produce something a little different than you can buy, look around some more, you'll probably find it. If you are looking for a new hobby, keep looking. The buckskinning craze has popularized some primitive home tanning methods but they, to my admitedly somewhat limited knowledge, all emphasize either a soft product or rawhide. There are my opinions on the matter and they are wort at least what they cost you.

[DavidL]

never been to a tannery. I would like to visit baker..

The way baker leather tans their hides looks simple enough, just a multiple pits/containers with water and bark. Sounds simple but it would take time (over a year) to establish a working formula. waxes, fats and fish oil as a finish.

Would be nice if I could in the future be able to tan hides locally and not have to worry about cost of hides as much since I could be able to cut some of the cost of bridle/veg.

Oil tanned and chrome tanning would be out of the question. I will try it out eventually on a small scale.

Anyone knows how hides were split back before machinery? Are there any full size hand crank splitters out there?

Edited February 14, 2015 by DavidL

[simontuntelder]

Seriously, go visit a tannery, that'll give you a more realistic perspective.

The amount of HEAVY machinery needed is huge - even for tanneries doing "simple" pit tanning. Then comes buying raw materials. Securing useable hides - where will you get them? The cow living in a field near you might not be suitable at all. And you have to find a middleman selling wet whites or wet blues - unless you want to do the liming process yourself.

Then comes finding and securing tanning agents. Do you know where to buy mimosa, oak, or whatever you need?

Then comes 10.000 other variables that makes it virtually impossible. I could keep listing them, if you want.

Go visit a tannery. Any will do. That'll give you a much needed insight and perhaps also a deeper appreciation of the work that goes into a piece of leather.

[Ingrid H]

Why would you want to tan your own leather when it's so cheap to buy? Tanning is a disgusting and labor intensive process. And as you already know, there is a lot to learn about doing it right. Trial and error isn't really a feasible way to learn how to tan cow hides unless you've got a huge trust fund.

When I was younger, I thought I could do anything I wanted to do. That's what the "grown-ups" told me and what I believed. Now that I'm older, I've come to realize that it takes years to get good at something and there is a reason for apprenticeships in the trades. If you are serious about tanning, I'd recommend getting a job at a tannery and learn from people who know what they are doing.

[thefanninator]

http://www.amazon.com/Tanning-Chemistry-Science-Anthony-Covington/dp/1849734348/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424065861&sr=8-1&keywords=Science+of+leather

[DavidL]

appreciate the responses. The 10,000 variables is something thats interesting to me. Within the 10k variables there are thousands of options that can make a finished hide and the equal amount that can ruin the hide. The opportunity to be able to create my own hides for veg/bridle only (not pull-up or chrome) is great as I could tan 20 sides for 1k - 2k and over time the cost will lower vs

3 -4k for 10 bends of english bridle. The risk is it could fail, but its worth the shot.

Materials:

Large enough containers to fit multiple sides or smaller containers to fit bends, shoulders and belly. Lime water, fleshing knife,oak bark,water, cod oil, fats, dubbin.

Did more research and from suggestions of the replies I think the best way to go about it is to buy the leather in salted state either with hair + flesh taken off (no mess) or to take it off myself (cheaper but timely). Put it into a weak tanning solution to get rid of the salt, limewater and hair bits ( Oak bark or tanning powder from the company silva team). Then move it over to a stronger solution of oak bark or other tannins, stretch on frame to dry. Dye the leather, treat with cod oil,fats, dubbin and hand polish.

Does anyone know if the 9-12 month tanning period is for sole bends or hides like english bridle that baker leather does?

Edited February 16, 2015 by DavidL

[Macca]

Do the replies so far not give you a strong enough hint that this idea is ridiculous ?

Why am I even bothering, I've just seen who the OP is

[DavidL]

lol. Id like to meet you in person instead of over the internet..

I think people are over estimating the cost and machinery needed for pit tanning. I appreciate their viewpoint though.

Im curious as to why pit tanning is undoable but smoke tanning leather is okay? If there are scientific facts that makes pit tanning undoable I would be more persuaded. If it doesnt work it doesnt work. Im excepting the fact that it may not work but it also a good chance it will. All things considered the pros outweigh the risk.

Edited February 16, 2015 by DavidL

[TwinOaks]

Several thousand dollars and 9-12 months from now we'll know......

[TwinOaks]

Legal Notice: ^{The information gained here is for informational and educational purposes only. So if you go against the general consensus here and decide to tan some hides on your own, we (the members, the owner of the site, the owners of the server hosting the site) are not responsible for the outcome, whether it be in lost revenue, material loss, financial indebtedness, ticked off friends/family/neighbors, legal penalties and/or fines, people giving you funny looks and wondering what the smell is, etc.}

That said, I hope it works for you. It seems to me kind of like the 'free milk from a cow' analogy, but if you have a way to successfully pull it off, kudos to you. If you're going to be making bridle leather, you may need a way to heat the entire vat/pit to 'stuff' the hide.

I'd be interested to find out what the ROI on this venture is.

Folks, please keep in mind that this kind of spirit is what drove more than a few people to become rather wealthy and/or famous.

DavidL - if I may recommend something, check out leatherchemists.org for more information. The name of the site says it all -they're chemists that are working in or are devoted to the leather industry.

[DavidL]

Thanks for the link. I tried to start an account a while back but they no longer accept new members... They do have a lot of info now that I look into it.

From a business stand point its enticing. Its a rather niche market, most people are looking into high end leathers. Start up is incredibly cheap, learning is very steep.

ROI

Without cost of leather, shipping, taxes or duties. I can see the cost being for just experimenting around with: $160 plus the cost of hide (60 dollars from an abattoir quoted from another member price could be slightly more) - $220

Used plastic barrel - $50

Water - Free

Calcium hydroxide (easy to find surprisingly) - 5 pounds $50

Skiving knife - $60

Oak bark - Free (from forests)

Dyes - Already own

finish - already own

If I'm able to perfect the art of tanning - A very rough estimate if I was to sell a hide for say $9 a sq foot (could be less or more) for a single hide would sell for 450 = $225 for 25 sq foot side.

For a one man operation of 20 hides a year it would take in 9 grand - 220 - 600 or more equipment and home made dyes and bees wax to finish - 1200 for hides . At that point I would need to buy the bark in bulk from a lumber yard. At a big enough space (big backyard) theoretically could do 100 hides a year. I would probably look like a breaking bad situation though.. Storage locker would be better...

100 hides could bring in 45k revenue imagining they are all A grades. The tricky part is learning how to tan leather in an art that is completely lost in North america but not so in other countries. Ability to tan correctly without messing up too many hides in the learning process.

There is a demand for leather right now so its a possibility. Also its possible to make new batches of leather every 2 months so that you could make more hides.

[simontuntelder]

The art of tanning is lost everywhere. There was a school in Germany where you could become a tanner and that school closed down not too long ago.

I saw a guy who tried to tan an entire cowhide and it was tanned surprisingly enough. But it was very uneven in thickness, the flesh side very messy (not to mention the grain side) and it looked more or less like rawhide. It was also tanned in oak bark that was salvaged from the woods.

I say, do it. I'm sure you'll drive Sedgwicks out of business in no time. And maybe add $100.000 to to your budget for unforeseen and realistic expenses.

[Bob Blea]

Going back to your question about permits, one that no one has mentioned is your environmental requirements. You will be dealing with some chemicals and at least here in the US, if you operate as a business with these types of chemicals you are probably going to need to go through an EPA permitting process as well as something similar from your local government. Your biggest problem will be the waste water. Once you are done tanning you will need to get rid of that solution and just dumping it down the drain could get you in serious trouble. You could probably get away with it in a residential or incorporated area if you only did it once or twice, but all it would take is one neighbor complaining about the smell to draw attention to what you are doing.

Most municipalities in North America will have codes that prevent a chemical based manufacturing business from operating within a residential area (or maybe even in a zoned agricultural area), so if you are considering this in any volume you will need to consider a separate manufacturing facility and a permitting process.

Just a few thoughts, and good luck. If this is truly a passion for you, you will find a way.

[cgleathercraft]

I think you are seriously underestimating your costs. Your test will be just that - a test. And could prove fruitful! The problem is not tanning a hide - anyone can do it with enough time and experience. The problem is when you decide to expand to those hundreds or thousands of sides a year. That requires lots of space, raw materials, equipment, people, and time. A year to produce 1 hide is hobby. Starting a new batch ever week or so to keep up a good supply will mean several hides a week going in and coming out of the process. Lots of work and little time to do much with the hides that are produced.

If this is going to be considered a serious inquiry look into supply chain practices. It not easy and does have drawbacks. I've delt with multi-million $ mistakes (not my own thankfully) and they can happen at any point in the process. Which affect EVERYTHING down the line. Available space, work, investments, overtime, and worst of all the bottom line. Those 10,000 different variables will become staggeringly apparent and have to be accounted for in some way.

disclaimer: I'm not a tanner and only know of what I've seen on youtube.

Lets say you perfect you method and it's scalable to a level that would produce several hundred hides a year (staggered of course to keep up supply). As the hides come in they will need to be stored before processing, as others have mentioned. Depending on the type of hide you procure this will change how much storage and processing is required before they enter the tanks. Large amounts of storage means buildings. Buildings mean thousands of dollars up front. The hides are processed and make it to the tanning tanks. Here they sit...for up to a year. Are they temperature controlled? Is the building heated/cooled? Huge expenses and difficult tasks to address. The hides start coming out of the tanks, Now they need to be stretched, dried, stuffed, whatever the process now requires. A large facility with people to stretch each hide on a rack to be placed either in a dryer or at least in a high air flow environment. Fast forward to the end of the process. The hides have been processed, tanned, dried, finished, and are ready for sale to customers (or used by your company). You need a warehouse to store all of the finished hides. Ideally this would be separated to some degree from the rest of the process. Humidity is your enemy now and everything up to this point has been in a moisture rich environment. the warehouse should store at an absolute minimum of 2x what you can produce. Some will disagree with this but warehouses are useful storage for more than just finished products. Extra hardware and machinery are not small and need to be inside somewhere.

if you are planning to produce more than just a couple dozen hides a year you are looking at several thousand to hundreds of thousands a year in investment. If you make something unique that everyone wants. Expect that to potentially jump to millions of dollars a year in investments.

big numbers = big responsibility = big risk

[oltoot]

Just another little tidbit, most local zoning laws are the result of western communities expanding beyond their original roots when nearly every growing place had a small pit tannery and as the community got organized and grew, among the issues it was faced with was the growing dislike among it's citizens for having these facilities in amongst them. And then came a phase when tanneries began to consolidate into the larger operations, a few of which have survived. They produced a product which was just basically bark tanned and the the end users 'curried' these hides with their own mixes of oils and fats to produce their end products. The bridle leather that you seem most interested in gets more hand finishing than other leathers, in addition to being applied only to hides usually selected after initial treatment. In early operations the skill of 'spoke shaving' the often lumpy and uneven straps produced before machinery that can trim whisker thicknesses off of green hides before tanning was an important part of a jouneyman strap worker's skill st. That along with the other 'currying' necessary to produce good work.

But you seem determined and you have developed an answer for every issue so forge ahead. One last thing, don't expect me or any other end user that I know of to buy your product at those or any other prices.

[Chain]

Why does this seem like a "wind up" to Me ?

[cem]

Why does this seem like a "wind up" to Me ?

It's normal

David if your becoming more interested in making leather rather than making items from it perhaps you should look into this place http://www.northampton.ac.uk/study/courses/courses-by-subject/leather-technology and get a more thorough understanding of what it actually involves they have their own tannery.

[billybopp]

I'm pretty sure that DavidL is preparing for the soon to come worldwide zombie apocalypse. He is set to be the world's sole remaining leather craftsman when that happens with control over the entire market and the entire supply chain from beef/hide on the hoof to the high end bag market. He will be supplanting Hermes, Gucci, Louis Vuitton, and all of the other high end bag manufacturers at one go when all of their workers become zombified. When the money from high end bags is flowing in, he will then re-invest in more facilities and maybe even branch out into leather clothing to protect from zombie bites, and other practical items such as horse tack as the world devolved into a 19th century lifestyle. Yup. It'll be one heck of a business model!

Bill

[Macca]

[Geneva]

You have no concept of what your are talking about!!!!! You should stop smoking those funny cigarettes they reduce your brain power by a lot.

I know of a tannery for sale. It was at one time the largest tannery on the east coast. I worked there for while. It was the Westfield Tannery they made Tex Tan and Herman oak, English bridle, harness leather, shoe soles, floor tile all vegetable tanned. The last I knew they turned out about 1200 hides a month before they went out business.

There is a guy in here that used to be one of the bosses at the tannery he runs the RJF leather Co. in Elmira, Ny.

It needs a lot of machinery; the cheapest of which is not the band splitter that will handle a full/half side of leather they are around 150,000 dollars.

That doesn't include a sanding machine a water roller. You need to find a different dream or nightmare what ever you call it.

I will leave you alone now.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Geneva

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Absolute bare bones? Look into brain tanning. There is a lot of info out there for buckskining.

[DavidL]

brain tanning is interesting as leather can be made quick and cheap il give it another look over. The discussion on the cost of machinery is helpful as it is something I should avoid on something this scale. So pit tanning is the way to go about it money wise. As with everything there will always be 1000 different excuses not to do something but rarely a reason not to try.

I did more research and found and read a book called art of tanning - 1850 ish. there was reference of using other tannins found in other woods instead of Oak which is not effective, cutting down the time by more than 50 percent which is good news waiting for 3 months is better than a year. Next step is to contact a leather tanning supplier and get a basic tanning set up formulated. Work out the kinks in the process by consulting with a leather chemist. Do some test runs on some hides and perfect the techniques. Easier said than done..

More likely I will do regular bark tanning in the future along side leather working and I will see from there.

Edited February 21, 2015 by DavidL