Will A Singer 25K Do The Trick

[flanman]

Greetings All

Earlier this winter I decided to get a treadle sewing machine thinking that it would allow me to sew a shirt out of buckskin. I originally thought that I had purchased a Singer 47k but now believe it to be a 25K treadle sewing machine from 1902. I had a local gentleman service the sewing machine and began practicing on fabric so as to get up to speed so to speak with using a treadle sewing machine. Once comfortable I gave a try to the leather. Initially it went well. That is after I adjusted the thread tension. Shortly after starting I noticed that it skipped all the stitches after the first two inches of fabric. I raised the foot pulled the leather, cut the threads and tried again. This time it only sewed three or four stitches and then skipped the rest. I went back to fabric and it skips every tenth stitch or so now. From what I can find on the internet it would seem that I have a dull needle. Is this correct and if so where can I get a good replacement? If wrong what do I do to correct this issue?

Thank you in advance for your help/guidance. More questions to follow I am sure.

flanman

[amuckart]

The best thing to do is read Wiz's thread on the type of machine you need to sew leather, which is pinned at the top of the sewing machines board and can be found at this link http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=25239

[flanman]

thank you. Missed that one.

[flanman]

I hope it is not because I missed it but I did not see anything in the Sticky thread about treadle machines or the issue of skipped stitches. Any other help would be greatly appreciated.

thanx again

flanman

[amuckart]

What do you want to know? There are treadle machines that you can sew leather on but they're treadle powered industrial machines.

The vast majority of treadle machines you'll find are domestic fabric machines. Even the best of those, such as the Singer 201k, won't sew leather well.

As a general rule of thumb, if it takes standard 15x1 domestic sewing machine needles, it is a fabric machine, not a leather machine.

[flanman]

thank you. So it is not likely to handle leather even thin buckskin, understood. Now why would it be skipping a stitch every now and then?

flanman

[TinkerTailor]

I have sewn alot of heavy canvas and lightweight garment leathers together on a 1917 FR White Rotary treadle machine, and it does fine. I make tool rolls and bicycle bags this way. I don't have to help the handwheel until I get up to 8 layers of 10oz canvas and a layer or two of light leather at a seam fold.

When i first started using my treadle machines (i have 2 whites and 3 singer), I had the same type of troubles. Try this:

1.Crank the presser foot pressure all the way up. If the foot comes up too far while stitching due to friction or material thickness, the stitch will skip.

2. Some of these machines are sensitive to thread twist direction. Play with which way the thread comes off the spool and also which direction you wind the bobbin. I found an oddity with thick materials that the thread would gradually untwist while going through the thread tensioning system, and start tangling after a few stitches. Flipping the spool over on the top of the machine fixes this, don't ask me why. I also am careful to wind my bobbins off the spool the exact same way. And put the bobbin in the machine the right way around as well.

3: Clean every bit of lint and thread from the bobbin area. Get a flashlight, magnifyer, and mirror. A half inch piece of thread 'way up in there' caused me a few headaches

4: Drive slow on jumps..........When the machine drives off a cliff when you pass over a seam, drive slow. If you are brave, hold the presser foot down with your finger. If you are going fast, and 'Dukes of hazard" the foot off the seam, you will skip a stitch, perhaps more...

5. LUBE EVERYTHING!! Old sewing machine oil turns rock hard over time. The machine will be gummed up. This will cause performance issues. On a machine that is new to me, i like to lube all the everythings with a bicycle lube called tri-flow. It is fairly thin, but it has some solvents in it that will help break down old lube. It will also wick its way into places sewing machine oil cant. It will wick into bearings from the side as sometimes the oil ports are plugged. I will run the machine, oiling every time i sit down for a little while, until it is buttery smooth, then switch to less frequent applications of the quality sewing machine oil of your choice.

edit: the wrong length needle, loose foot or needle, and needle put in machine in the wrong orientation can cause issues as well. If the needle clamp is not on the flat of the needle, it may spin while stitching.

Edited March 19, 2015 by TinkerTailor

[flanman]

TinkerTailor

This is great info, thank you. One follow-up question if I may, how do I adjust the presser foot pressure? Also where can I order new needles and what size should I get for attempting to stitch buckskin?

flanman

[TinkerTailor]

On most of the treadle machines ive come accross, the presser foot pressure is controlled by an adjuster directly above it on top of the machine. It is usually a cap or bolt that pushes down on the presser foot spring.

Btw, I have, on junky machines, experimented with adding washers, stretching the spring to add pressure, and other mods however this can and will wear stuff out faster and break things. Proceed at your own peril here.

Here are some pics of a underseat bicycle toolroll i a currently working on. All the stitching is done on a white rotary FR machine on treadle (with liberal handwheeling). It is 1 layer 3-4 oz of Hot stuffed bridle and 1-2 layers of 4-6oz hot wax stuffed boot leather. Both chrome tan, the bridle is veg re-tan and is very stiff. The boot leather is pretty supple.

Total thickness stitched is 7mm, looks like 6 here due to angle:

My starrett micrometer says 0.237" which works out to about 15 oz total thickness.

Backside of stitching:

Frontside:

Frontside 2: (there is an extra stitch hole at the corner....my machine runs so smooth, it sometimes drops the needle slowly into the work if i am not looking. Sometimes i wish it was still a little gummed up)

Edited March 22, 2015 by TinkerTailor

[Darren Brosowski]

Need pictures!

Ismacs only list the 25- class and most use the 24X1 needle which is very short.

"-", "W" or "K" classes are not always the same machines. As an example the 99k is a domestic while the 99W is a bar tacker

[flanman]

how do I post pics. I have tried using the image and links buttons but they only lock up the browser. I have tried cut and paste a photobucket link but that did not paste...

sorry

[Wizcrafts]

how do I post pics. I have tried using the image and links buttons but they only lock up the browser. I have tried cut and paste a photobucket link but that did not paste...

sorry

If the browser you are using that is locking up is Internet Explorer, try downloading, installing and using Mozilla Firefox, or Google Chrome browsers, rather than Internet Exploder. IE is soon to be on the way out, once Windows 10 arrives.

If you have been using Firefox, and you have the NoScript Add-on installed, make sure you allow scripting for the LW.N forums.

In all cases, make sure you have the very latest version of whatever web browser you prefer to use. Ensure that automatic checking and installing of updates is enabled, for both the browser and any plug-ins and add-on extensions you have installed. If you find unwanted toolbars, disable (and remove) them. Sleazeware toolbars cause mayhem in web browsers, especially the search stealers.

[Darren Brosowski]

Not sure what I was smoking when I read your post

The 25k class is probably the most popular leather machine ever built

[flanman]

let me see if i can get my pics posted with a new browser

here are the pics.

A couple of questions I still have-

where can I get good replacement needles?

Adjusting the tension has helped but not eliminated my issue with skipped stitches, any other thoughts?

Any suggestions on where I can find someone to redo the woodwork on this treadle. Much of the veneer is ready to go or has come off. One drawer was reglued but too much glue was used and now it will not close all of the way.

I am still looking to use this to sew a buckskin shirt. I am getting better with sewing fabric and hope to soon have this adjusted well enough for thin leather.

Thank you once again for your guidance

flanman

[cdthayer]

That machine looks more like a Singer Model 27 than a 25, Flanman.

The 27 takes a common household needle 15x1, 2020, HAx1, or 130-705H.

CD in Oklahoma

[Wizcrafts]

That is a model 27 and probably one hundred years old. It is not meant to sew leather; just textiles. You would have to remove the original solid presser foot and the presser bar and convert it to a modern foot and bar system. This would allow you to install a roller or Teflon foot to help feed buckskin, which otherwise might not slide under the foot very well.

[flanman]

That machine looks more like a Singer Model 27 than a 25, Flanman.

The 27 takes a common household needle 15x1, 2020, HAx1, or 130-705H.

CD in Oklahoma

Thank you CD.

[flanman]

Wiz, thank you. Yes the serial number check has confirmed this is more than 100 years old. I had hoped that the quality then would handle thin leather and figured with no mechanical/electrical engine so to speak it would be able to do so. Alas I am slowing accepting that it will not.

flanman

[Wizcrafts]

Wiz, thank you. Yes the serial number check has confirmed this is more than 100 years old. I had hoped that the quality then would handle thin leather and figured with no mechanical/electrical engine so to speak it would be able to do so. Alas I am slowing accepting that it will not.

flanman

Your experience is similar to what many other people go through as they strive to sew leather on machines. That is why I published the sticky article about "The type of sewing machine you need to sew leather." It is among the other sticky topics on top of the Leather Machines section of the forum (this section). The information in it can save others from going through what I endured, learning about what type of machine it takes to sew real leather projects.

To be fair, some old machines can sew some types and thicknesses of leather, with what I regard as upholstery grade thread. In my own experience, this meant about 1/8 inch with #69 thread. It also required changing the presser foot to either a roller equipped foot, or a Teflon foot. Ancient machines, like your 27 type, have a solid presser foot that usually mounts the wrong way compared to modern machines. This requires changing the presser bar to use newer feet that flex, or have rollers or are made of Teflon.

[Darren Brosowski]

Every sewing machine ever built - including toys - will sew leather but the trick is knowing how much they will sew and with what thread.

[flanman]

OK so I know I am slow but it takes time to get things where I live. I got new needles two 14s and a 16. I replaced the old needle and now the bobbin thread is creating this huge ball of loops of thread on the underside of the fabric I am practicing on. I have tried adjusting the tension on the upper thread but with little success. This seemed like such an easy idea when I started. Get a treadle machine, get some thread and press the peddle and whalla I will have a new buckskin shirt...boy was I wrong.

[Wizcrafts]

OK so I know I am slow but it takes time to get things where I live. I got new needles two 14s and a 16. I replaced the old needle and now the bobbin thread is creating this huge ball of loops of thread on the underside of the fabric I am practicing on. I have tried adjusting the tension on the upper thread but with little success. This seemed like such an easy idea when I started. Get a treadle machine, get some thread and press the peddle and whalla I will have a new buckskin shirt...boy was I wrong.

Thread bunching up under the material could be caused by any of the following problems:

1. The top thread is not going around the center of the upper tensioners, thus, there is no top thread tension.
2. The top thread is going around the center of the tensioners, but they are being kept separated by the presser foot lifter mechanism. Same result; no top tension. Is your presser foot lifted up as you sew? It should be all the way down against the material. Check for binding of the presser bar.
3. The bobbin thread is jammed in the bobbin case, or under the bobbin tension spring.
4. The needle is much too small for the combination of top and bottom threads. The needle must make a hole wide enough to allow the lockstitch "knot" to be pulled up into the material.
5. The shuttle has been moved slightly out of time with the needle. The hook must arrive at the center of the scarf, above the eye of the needle, as it is ascending and has formed a loop.
6. The needle is in backwards, or is incorrectly aligned.
7. The feed dog (in your case) is not able to advance the material properly (against the force of the presser foot), resulting in lots of thread going into the same hole or holes.
8. The stitch length regulator is set at zero. Same result as above.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Wizcrafts

[Darren Brosowski]

This machine is fantastic and incredible condition - as long as you want to sew shirts or dresses.

It is not, and never will be a leather sewing machine.

let me see if i can get my pics posted with a new browser

here are the pics.

A couple of questions I still have-

where can I get good replacement needles?

Adjusting the tension has helped but not eliminated my issue with skipped stitches, any other thoughts?

Any suggestions on where I can find someone to redo the woodwork on this treadle. Much of the veneer is ready to go or has come off. One drawer was reglued but too much glue was used and now it will not close all of the way.

I am still looking to use this to sew a buckskin shirt. I am getting better with sewing fabric and hope to soon have this adjusted well enough for thin leather.

Thank you once again for your guidance

flanman

[flanman]

Well with the help from of you all and a little 'nothing to loss' attitude I think I have it working. I took the shuttle out and loosened the spring screw and removed a barrel of thread debris and other nonsense. I realigned the needle which was in sideways. I tinkered with the tensioner and getting the thread into it properly so that it actually applies resistance. Thank you once again. Back to practice stitching for a couple of weeks then if I do not screw anything else up I will see what I can do for projects.