Directions For Timing A Singer 45K25

[Evo160K]

Finding components and information for the 45K25 I'm restoring has been a challenge. I believe everything obvious that was missing from the outside is now present. A number of fine members here on LW have helped tremendously. Thank you Constabulary, Singermania,, Jimi, Shoepatcher, Darren Brosowski, Colt W Knight, Frankqv and anyone I overlooked. The next step is disassembly.

Would someone be able to explain how or direct me to a good set of Singer instructions for timing the needle and hook? The machine seems to be sewing well at the moment. I've searched LW and haven't found anything that discusses how to do it. Recall I'm new to sewing and restoring these honorable old machines.

Thank you very much

Edited March 20, 2015 by Evo160K

[Constabulary]

I would not disassemble it when it is sewing - keep it that way. Maybe do some fine tuning of hook / needle bar timing and then it should be good. I´d just thoroughly clean it and oil it well and if necessary give it a new paint job on the outside.

Always keep in mind that you probably can damage parts when you disassemble / reassemble it. And you know how hard to find the external parts for the 45K are and the chances are rare that you will find any of the internal parts!!!! And even if you find some it will make the restoration even more expensive.

Needle / hook timing is quite an easy task (usually) since the needle is just going up and down and not forwards and backwards (no needle feed).

Usually the hook tip should meet the needle scarf about 2.5mm above the needle eye. You just have to loosen the 2 screws on the needle bar clamp and move the needle bar up or down until it meets the scarf.

[amuckart]

I'll explain the principle for the benefit of the archives, then the process for a 45k, which is basically the same for any oscillating hook machine.

To time a machine you need the point of the shuttle to pick up a loop of thread coming off the needle. This loop is then pulled around the shuttle (and bobbin) to pass the top and bottom threads over each other.

The loop is formed on the side of the needle that does not have the groove in it. Many modern needles have a scarf or indent above the eye on the side opposite the groove. This scarf allows the needle to be closer to the shuttle and gives the shuttle point a bit more space to pick up the loop in the top threads. This allows a more reliable stitch formation.

The loop is formed when the needle has gone all the way down and then risen slightly from bottom-dead-centre. What happens is that the thread in the groove of the needle is held in place by friction with the material, so when the needle moves up, the thread slides in the groove, leaving excess under the material. This excess slides through the eye of the needle and forms a loop on the scarf side.

When the loop has formed, but before the needle rises too far and either squishes the loop against the underside of the material or pulls the top thread back up through the material, the point of the shuttle catches the loop and pulls the top thread around the shuttle to make the stitch.

Here's a quick and dirty diagram showing the loop formation:

Shuttle to needle timing is critical because if the shuttle point passes the needle too early the loop won't have formed and if it passes too late the loop will have moved up above the shuttle point and there will be nothing for it to catch.

The general process for timing an oscillating hook machine is as follows:

1. Remove the needle plate and feed dog. This usually involves removing the shuttle race and shuttle, but put them back when you're done removing the feed dog.
2. Put a new needle in. Schmetz size 230 are good for this size of machine
3. Turn the machine until the needle has gone all the way down and keep turning until the needle has come up about 4mm/3/16th inch (the exact height varies by machine, but I think this should be Ok for a 45k. The main thing - and the reason to use a Schmetz 230 needle - is to have the middle of the scarf align with the point of the shuttle.
4. At this stage the point of the shuttle should be in the centre of the needle, exactly in the middle of the scarf. If it does, you're good. If not, you need to either move the shuttle so it is in the correct position (do this if possible) or cycle the machine until the shuttle is in the right position and adjust the needle bar height so that it all lines up.

In this picture the shuttle timing is delayed, the shuttle point has not reached the needle yet. Sorry I don't have one with the timing correct.

On old machines like my 1919 one, the shuttle timing is fixed and you adjust it by adjusting the height of the needle bar. To adjust the needle bar height, remove the face cover and loosen the two screws in the rectangular block the needle bar passes through:

On newer machines, there is a screw where the shuttle driver attaches to the back end of the shaft. Loosen this and you'll be able to turn the shuttle by hand without the rest of the machine moving. It needs to be just tight enough for the shuttle to stay where you put it. The screw you want to loosen is accessed through the hole in the base of the machine that's facing you when you are using the machine.

In this picture I'm pointing to the screw (which is missing in my machine)

The shuttle driving bit is the rectangular part with two rivets in it in this picture (taken looking up into the machine from underneath). Watch that part move as you turn the machine and it should become clear where the screw is you need to adjust to fix the timing.

I hope that helps.

[amuckart]

I'll offer an alternative viewpoint to Constabulary's with respect to disassembling the machine.

I completely disassembled my 45k25, down to the last screw and taper pin. I found it very rewarding because the process taught me a lot about how the machine (and sewing machines in general) work. I was not the first person to have done so. A lot of the screws in my machine had damaged heads from idiots with the wrong size screwdrivers going at them and some of the external parts on my machine are not original. The foot lifter bar in particular is held on with a very jerry-rigged assemblage of nuts and spacers.

Once I had it apart, I had the head stripped and powdercoated and had the relevant external parts nickel plated. IMO Powdercoating gives the closest finish to the original japanning and it's extremely durable.

I'm fairly mechanically minded to begin with, and I was extremely systematic about how I took my machine apart. I took photographs of every single bit I removed, before, during, and after removal, and I put all the screws and small parts through numbered index cards, which I then photographed as well. This gave me a complete sequence consisting of several hundred photos I could refer to during reassembly.

If you want to learn how machines work, and you've got the right set of screwdrivers and spanners, completely stripping a machine and reassembling it can be quite rewarding, and on a machine the size of a 45k it's a hell of a lot less fiddly than on a domestic machine.

[Constabulary]

Nice description, Amuckart!!!!

I absolutely agree that disassembling / reassembling is a good learning but it always depends a lot on what skills you have. And I absolutely understand when someone wants to do it. But be careful.

[Evo160K]

Constabulary, Amuckart, thank you very much for your replies. You can be certain I'll pay careful attention to every word you've written. Constabulary, you and I have exchanged emails in the past, and you no doubt recall the taper pin I damaged while restoring the Claes. You have reason to be concerned about my skill level. I appreciate the caution on my behalf.

Amuckart, thank you also for that detailed description, I learned a tremendous amount. My machine was manufactured in 1940 and does have the screw where the shuttle driver attaches to the back end of the shaft, the screw in your picture. Since it also has the two screws on the block the needle bar passes through, which is the preferred location to use to time the needle and hook? It would sure be good to have a copy of the service mechanic's documentation for the 45K machine. I looked once in the Smithsonian library archives with no success. I wonder if there's a copy out there somewhere!

My needlebar has a small hole and two punch like dimples on the side opposite the needle clamp screw. Do those have something to do with timing? Here's a picture:

Amuckart, I'll study the machine in light of what you've said, check the timing and report back. Thanks again for your help.

[Constabulary]

Al, that was a general statement not because you have damaged something. I unfortunately never have seen a service manual for the 45K.

Maybe you can take some pictures for documenting your progress.

I still have a used needle bar from the 45K I once stripped but mine has neither markings nor a hole.

I´d check if the the markings are aligned with parts like screws or other parts at some point so you could use them as reference or timing marks.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Constabulary

[amuckart]

Nice description, Amuckart!!!!

I absolutely agree that disassembling / reassembling is a good learning but it always depends a lot on what skills you have. And I absolutely understand when someone wants to do it. But be careful.

Thanks

You're right. I've been taking things apart and (mostly) putting them back together again since I was about 3 (when I took a wall clock to pieces). It's not a job for the less-mechanically inclined who just want a machine that sews, but a 45k is a piece of cake once you've done an Elna TSP zigzag machine.

[amuckart]

Constabulary, Amuckart, thank you very much for your replies. You can be certain I'll pay careful attention to every word you've written. Constabulary, you and I have exchanged emails in the past, and you no doubt recall the taper pin I damaged while restoring the Claes.

Heh. My first encounter with taper pins was... educational.

I've still got one in a 29k58 holding the shuttle rack on that I've never been able to shift.

Amuckart, thank you also for that detailed description, I learned a tremendous amount. My machine was manufactured in 1940 and does have the screw where the shuttle driver attaches to the back end of the shaft, the screw in your picture. Since it also has the two screws on the block the needle bar passes through, which is the preferred location to use to time the needle and hook? It would sure be good to have a copy of the service mechanic's documentation for the 45K machine. I looked once in the Smithsonian library archives with no success. I wonder if there's a copy out there somewhere!

If there is, I've never seen one. There's a "Qwik Fix" manual that purports to be a 45k service manual but it's really basic and IMO not worth the price of admission. I've explained most of the relevant stuff in this thread.

My needlebar has a small hole and two punch like dimples on the side opposite the needle clamp screw. Do those have something to do with timing? Here's a picture:

45K25 Needlebar markings IMG_3284.JPG

They sure look like they should, but I've never seen them. My 45k doesn't have the markings or the hole. I think Constabulary is on the right track with his suggestion to turn the machine over and see if they line up with anything.

Here's the inside of my machine:

The other thing to do would be to find someone who has a GA5 machine, which is a clone of the 45k, and see if it has the markings.

Amuckart, I'll study the machine in light of what you've said, check the timing and report back. Thanks again for your help.

You're welcome. If there's anything else I can do to help shed light on the machine please ask.

Edited March 22, 2015 by amuckart

[Constabulary]

Here's the inside of my machine:

IMG_2746.JPG

The other thing to do would be to find someone who has a GA5 machine, which is a clone of the 45k, and see if it has the markings.

uuuuh - looks nice and clean inside - SWEEEET!!!

If you don´t mind please post some pictures of your machine.

[Darren Brosowski]

An oscillating shuttle machine as simple as the 45k is a great place to start learning.

If you can rip one apart and get it together then the next step is a 441

[amuckart]

uuuuh - looks nice and clean inside - SWEEEET!!!

If you don´t mind please post some pictures of your machine.

Truth is it hasn't been used since I put it back together again I need to build a table for it and I got sick and couldn't work on any for a couple of years.I'll post pictures of it once I've finished putting the decals on and have somewhere to put it. At the moment it's sitting next to my computer table.

One day I hope to find an original treadle stand for it that I can afford.

[BigMatt]

This thread needs to be a sticky.

If nobody does by then, I will look in my GA-5 tonight to see if it has the marks.

[Evo160K]

Amuckart,

Like you, I hope to find an original treadle stand one day that I can afford. That's the one piece that's been evading me.

Would you know the Singer part number for the complete treadle stand? I think that part number would help the search. Thanks a lot.

Btw I checked my timing using the instructions and it seems to be real close. I may lower the needlebar a hair to let the hook enter the loop more toward the top rather than toward the bottom as it is now. Curious to see what that will do. Thanks again.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Evo160K

[amuckart]

Amuckart,

Would you know the Singer part number for the complete treadle stand? I think that part number would help the search. Thanks a lot.

I don't, sorry. I've only ever seen one and it was too far away for me to realistically get hold of.

I'm glad you're getting ahead with timing your machine.

Have fun.

[Darren Brosowski]

The GA5 owes more to the the ADLER 4 class than the 45k but they are very close.

This thread needs to be a sticky.

If nobody does by then, I will look in my GA-5 tonight to see if it has the marks.

[Evo160K]

Amuckart,

It just dawned on me, I was watching an internet YouTube video recently that you made. You were demonstrating the shuttle movement in a 45K25. You said the machine had a couple of millemeters movement in each direction and referred to it as slop.

Would you mind explaining what the proper movement should be in the machine, what problems excessive movement causes and what if anything should be done to correct excessive movement? My 25K has 0.1 mm movement in each direction, I have no idea if that's okay or too tight.

Thank you Amuckart.

[jimi]

Hi Al, just saw this post?,the table and stand number is in the description of the 45k69 in the post of the Original singer 45k instruction manual. hope you guys find one.

[Evo160K]

Hi Jimi,

Thanks for lead to the part numbers. Now I know what to ask for when I talk to people. Like most other 45K parts, they're next to impossible to find in this country.

Thanks again Jimi.

Regards,

[Stewey]

For what it's worth, I have a 45k-67 with a jump foot, and the removable rectangular base that converts it from a cylinder arm, to a flat base.
Also have a 45k-72 in which the presser foot bar jumps up in each cycle, as if it's meant to have the jump foot, but it came with just a roller foot a bit under 1/8" wide, though I've been able to get a spoon foot, and a wider roller foot for it.

The feed dogs on one of them had been worn to smithereens, and the plate had been broken where misaligned needles or leather over the years has walloped the hole. (I'm gguessing someone had tried sewing horse rugs, and the misalignment comes when climbing up a thick double seam) The plate and needle hole had been brazed back on a few times. I was lucky to pick up another plate and a few bobbins from an old Singer service shop, before it shut down 10 years ago.
The fellow there kindly photocopied the parts book for that series (45k 67 to 45k 72) for me, though he charged me an arm and a leg for it too!

I don't have much in the way of spares that are spare though.

We have clydesdale horses, and I've made our own harness over the years - using these and also hand sewing, plus using a big old unbranded Adler/Wertheim with a sideways moving shuttle. I use a chopped down Pearson needle for that.
(Also have a 29k13 that gets a fair bit of use, a Pederson sole stitcher, and a few other mostly dead middle-sized Singers.)

Thanks for the thread. I had three days of 'fun' (sarcasm) 28 years ago when I bought the 45k 72, as I knew nothing about them, and the timing was out - it would not sew anything, though I was promised it worked.
I just about tore my hair out trynig to figure the problem-eventually I found a loose grub screw underneath that prevented the shuttle from rotating far enough round at the right time to grab the loop of thread. Once I seated that, it's been fine!

[Constabulary]

Stewey - if you don´t mid please post some pictures of your machines. There are a bunch of "45K lovers" who always like to see variants and different accessories.

[Mike306]

On 5/26/2015 at 5:42 AM, Constabulary said:

Stewey - if you don´t mid please post some pictures of your machines. There are a bunch of "45K lovers" who always like to see variants and different accessories.

I'll second that!