Here we go. saddle tree test. Carbon fiber verses hide

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

By the way my name is Mort Stevenson.

Just throwing some ideas around. I know this stuff may be old hat to this forum. Sorry if I going over old stuff.

[greg gomersall]

Mort I am not so niave to think that some day something will come along that will surpass a good handmade saddle wood and rawhide saddle tree. bob Wattrus from Australia has been making carbon fibre trees for several years now, Mark Howe here in the US is using some of them. As far as a cost saving unless you know something they are not letting us know it is very little.

As far as shimming the bottom of bars for pressure points as you were discribbing people do that with rawhide trees as well, I have not seen many done with any sucess. There is alot more to it than shimming one spot as generaly what you do there will interfere somewhere else as a horse goes thru its paces.

As far as offering a good product that does not take long I believe you will learn that if the product is good and does catch on (the 2 do not nessecarly work hand in hand) you will run into a major problem. the demand will increase to the point that you will not be able to keep up. Then you will have to decide whether to start a waitng list or hire staff, if you choose the latter you will lose some of the quality control you yourself would have.

People need to start paying attention to confirmation when they buy a horse, some backs do not hold a saddle well. The type of horse that cowboys and good horseman tend to ride are not hard to fit. When someone comes to me with a hard to fit horse story I pay attention to what the person says as from this you can figure out that generaly it is best to send them else where because they are gonna want some gimmick or a tree made to fit a horse of poor confirmation. The horse should be made into dog food and the person will either buy a different horse or get out of horses within 3 to 5 years and then there is a frak saddle on the market with your name on it. That saddle will end up being bought by someone who has heard the maker is good but has no clue to saddle fit and they will not be happy with the results they get so they will blame the saddle maker instead of the IDIOT that had a saddle made to fit a horse that wasn't worth saddling. Greg

[mulefool]

Truer words were never spoke, Greg. When I first started out I thought as a 'custom" maker it was my job to fit these horses. I was a little slow on the uptake, but eventually learned to send these folks somewhere else. Chris

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Mort,

It looks like you have been researching the net extensively. Looking at the site the pictures come from explains the rather different conformation and hardware on those trees. I couldn’t figure out why there was a bolt extending at least ¼”, if not more from the looks of it, though the bar in the first picture. That would damage a horse to uselessness in the first few seconds of a ride if used as is. So in looking at their site, this tree would probably have been designed and built for them specifically to use as the solid part of the tree to which they are attaching their flexible panels. It would not have been one of the tree company’s own designs. That would also probably explain why it split through the fork and cantle and not the bars which is generally the weakest part of a tree.

The idea of flexible panels very similar to these under a solid tree was a concept that Orthoflex saddles used a number of years ago. The company is no longer in existence as far as we know. The original Trooper saddles had rigid trees. The suspension has to do with the seat for the rider, not the bars on the horse.

The problem that must be overcome in a saddle is that rigid must contact flexible at some point. With a rigid tree, that interface is under the whole surface of the bar, spreading out the pressure. With a panel system or with flexible bars, that rigid/flexible interface is at whatever connection points there are between the two – either the attachment point of the panels, as in the first site, or at the ends of the arches, as in the second site you list, or the attachment points of the bars and fork, as in a lot of flexible bar trees today. These connection points have concentrated pressure under them – and that can sore the horse. Also, if bars are able to be easily bent with arm pressure, they will sag under a rider and not distribute their weight evenly across the full bar surface.

The only advantage I could see to carbon fiber would be its weight to strength ratio for recreational saddles. All the other problems of producing a tree and getting it to fit properly are the same as with any other material. We have heard that building on these trees is not easy, but that may vary with composition of the materials. I do know that we will not be the ones to explore that market niche. We hit the decision point Greg talked about within the first 3 years of starting up and we decided not to lower the standard on quality. Thus, our wait time and the lack of time or need for us to experiment with other materials.

[Alan Bell]

The saddle tree in the picture has a light wieght foam inside it. You can use nails and screws with them very well. So the saddle maker tells me. He uses them in all his saddles. I don't know if they sale saddle trees. I think they only sale there saddles.

http://www.american-saddles.de/english/karbon.html

The pressure testing pads have been used in the medical profession a while. They used them for many reasons but one is to help people in wheel chairs. But they haven't been that good to use with horses. They are a lot better now and use blue tooth. I am looking into the cost of buying one. I think that will be the future for custom saddles and trees.

I agree that the problem is going to be making a custom fit to the horse. But just a thought. Lets say you make a casting of your horses back. Then build a mold on the casting for the bottom of the bars. You can do it with carbon fiber or a liquid foam. You could ever make two casting in carbon fiber on each side and flip it over for the top of the bars. The inside of coarse could be construction foam or liquid contruction foam.

Well as far reshaping a saddle tree. If the bar needs to be changed. If you have a medical pressure pad it will tell you were the pressure is to much. There are different ways to do the change. One is to build up the bottom of the bar were need with leather. The other way would be to attach a shape hard pad to the bottom of the bar. Or you can also adjust a hard pad to make up the difference. I don't know if that would work that well. Know I been researching and working on this for a while. I been using my experance as a cabnet maker, tool and die maker. I have used my knowelge of horse movements, kineslogy and biomechanics. It's a pasion of mine.

While as far as the economy. It's going to be a long one. Maybe 5 to 10 year before it gets better.

So I think offering a good product that doesn't take so long and is affordable. That's the sale person in me. For one the suspension saddles seems like a good idea. Less work and comfortable at least that what I heard and read. The fact is the pressure on the horse is even out threw this kind of seat. The amish and the canadian troops use these kind of saddles.

http://tarpinhill.net/history/index.html

Don't get me wrong I like toughness and stability of the ranch saddles a lot. But I see a need for this kind of saddle. I ride a lot of miles, up and down hills, running and trotting. I know a lot of people that ride hard. All have had custom saddles and store bought ones. It alway ends up being a hunt for a saddle that fits. Buying and selling tell in happens. One endurance rider I know said the best saddle she has is a 350.00 saddle. She said the custom one she had made hurts her horse. I also have probems with my horse and saddles. Tried a lot of different types. Finally made a skeleton templet of my horses back.

And found out factory saddles did fit my horse.

As far as screwing and nailing into a carbon fiber tree you have to use the right resin and caron fiber. The foam if used to form the base inside has to be the right stuff you can nail and screw into. To tell you the true I like working with wood, hide and leather. I have done cooper, steel, silver, gold metal work also.

I'm learning a lot about saddle making and saddle tree making threw this forum. This forum has a lot of great saddle and tree makers on it. With a lot of experance and knowlege. Hopefully I can blend the new with the old. Right now I'm still at the point were I keep coming up with more questions. How could this be done or that be done to make it work better. LOL

Hello Sittinguphigh, I guess you are trying to re invent the wheel! I am a novice saddle maker and I like to do a lot of research too. If you found 1 endurance rider that felt the manufactured saddle fit her horse better than a custom saddle I can find 2 with custom saddles that say just the opposite so that argument becomes mute. If you are looking for a "better cheaper" way I'm reminded of what Neal Armstrong, the American test pilot said when asked what was the last thing he thought about before he flew in and experimental aircraft (he was the first to fly the 4000 mph X - 15)! They were expecting him to say he thought about his mom or maybe that he would be making history or the great achievement it would be for mankind but he said: "The last thing I think about before flying an experimental airplane is that it was built by the lowest bidder!" Cheaper isn't always better! If you are using pressure mapping to create the perfect bar shape it will only work in the imaginary "perfect world" where the rider is sitting perfectly balanced and the horse moves perfectly balanced. I've yet to see that. I've seen some really good riders and really good horses but at some point the rider will shift his/her weight or the horse will lean this way or that and your pressure map is all wrong. The best you can do is TRY to have the most bar surface you can in contact with the horses back MOST of the time. Unless I'm missing something and that is quite possible too! If you are trying to cut down on the wait time for a custom saddle most folks will by the cheap cheap saddle to ride for the year that they are waiting for their custom saddle and then sell the cheap cheap saddle....you can see them for sale on Ebay right now....Lots of em. If YOU are happy with the factory saddle you have now then that is great for you but you seem to be 'pushing' , 'peddling' , 'endorsing', 'recommending' , 'suggesting' that carbon fiber trees are the answer to all the horse world ailments and Xenophon would have ridden one if he had only been a little smarter. In other words...where is this conversation leading to? And by the way how is flipping the casting you've done for the bottom of the bars over going to make anything worthwhile for the shape on the top of the bars unless your butt is the inverted shape of the horses back? Just curious?

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[D.A. Kabatoff]

I was driving down a range road near Calgary, Alberta earlier today and came across something interesting... two small ranches almost across the road from each other... a guy on a quad was roaring back and forth behind about forty cows making a bunch of smoke and noise to move them into another pasture. Across the road was a rider on horseback, slowly moving about the same number of cows, presumably for the same purpose. Point is, it's not always about finding a better or faster way of doing something. Some people take pride in their work and that pride comes from how you do a job and not necessarily how quick you get it done.

A good handmade tree that forms the base of a finely made saddle to be used by a good horseman on horses with good backs all takes time from getting the tree to building the saddle to learning to ride and even the breeding that went into the horse. These are the the things that reward me when I pour my heart and soul into building a saddle; for me, there is little satisfaction in dealing with someone who wants a quick, cheap saddle...speaks volumes about the person and what they'll probably do with the saddle.

Darc

Edited December 2, 2008 by D.A. Kabatoff

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

You have a point there Greg. If I can make a good product with less time and cost. I may end with a waiting list like everyone else. But I guess I would feel better helping more people out. Here is a lady that uses the mapping system in her business. She says it is working well. http://www.doublediamondequine.com/Saddle%20Fitting.asp Well Greg I find people who ride only a hour or two a week don't know there hurting there horse. If your riding 10 to 20 hours a week is another story. You real need a good saddle for that kind for riding. There are a few things that can effect a saddle fit. One Is the rider, Two is the saddle tree. Three is the saddle maker. Four is the horse. If you can't get a casting of the horses back you can't guarantee the fit. And that's all you can guarantee the fit. At least if the fit is right the owner can look at the other things that can effect the horse. But I guess I'm not into mediocrity. After reading Rod and Denise's web site I can see there not ether. Yes I agree with what you saying Rod. I don't like the saddle tree configuration. I like the western saddle bar fit. The saddle trees this company is making has a Australian feel to them. As far as the Orthoflex panels I think the idea is correct within correct physics. But there application I don't like. I came up with the same conclusions you did Rod. The lady that runs Double Diamond equine came up with the same conclusions as we did using the pressure mapping system. High pressure points moving all around the Orthoflex panels. You right Rod the problem is coming up with a way to fit the horse. Same old problem. I feel carbon fiber and construction foam could give you more options to play with then wood and hide trees. The result could be a lighter, stronger, quicker made and affordable way to make a saddle tree. It's like buying off the rack suit or a custom tailored suit. Maybe something in the middle will work. Have a off the rack suit tailored. Is that kind of what you do Rod? I hear a lot of working cowboys are starting to buy saddles with saddle trees with fiberglass covering. Bret from Hadly and Fox told me he did pull tests with the wooden horn on the hide and fiberglass saddle trees. The hide took 2500 pounds and the fiberglass took 3300 pounds before breaking. Interesting. Rod how many working cowboys or endurance riders have used your saddle trees? How are they work for them? Like Einstein said Genius is 5 percent inspiration and 95 percent perspiration. Yes that's me Alan reinventing the wheel. Thanks. I'm in good company. Like Einstein did with gravity. Sorry Newton. Cheap is not the word Alan. Affordable is. If it wasn't for Ford we wouldn't be able to afford cars. The pressure maps have blue tooth now. You can walk, trot and run around the arena while watching the pressure on the horse. If perfection is a road and not a destination. Then Perfection is making the saddle so it can change with slit pressures differences put on it by the rider. The problem is not that the changing pressure on the horse. It is two much pressure on one spot. At least that is my look on it. Alan carbon fiber is just a different type of material to use for a covering. Planes were first made wood and paper once. Then aluminum was used. Now carbon fiber is being used. Function has to impartial. Now if it is art you want that a different story. That is a personal thing. As far as flipping over one side of the bar to make use as the top. You don't sit on the bars. You make a seat to sit on. So that wouldn't be a problem. Of coarse you real don't have to do that. You can just rap the carbon fiber over the top of the bar.

[Elton Joorisity]

I have to chime in here. I build saddles for working cowboys and I use Rod and Denise's trees along with custom trees from other makers. First of all, these trees FIT. I don't ever micro-fit a horse, especially with customers like mine that have a string of 3 to 15 horses. We find trees that will fit them all on a good average. Second of all, they are TOUGH. One of my customers raises bucking bulls and he has roped quite a few out of his saddle already. Back to fit for a second, one of my customers roped a cow and never botherred to tighten his cinch before he roped her, well they got done and he stepped off and pulled his latigo about four or five inches away from his horse. Sounds to me like they fit. My kind of customers are asking for custom trees and I know that this may not be true in your case and that's why we are all entitled to our opinions. Sorry if I rambled on about nothing.

[Tosch]

I have been watching this discussion with increasing confusion…

All aspects you mention SUH have been discussed in length in other topics in this forum….

There are different materials available with which to cover a wood tree.

You mentioned Ortho-Flex flex panel trees/saddles. The inventor Len Brown has, well, adjusted his opinion over time as you can see at his new website www.thecorrector.net. The American-saddles.de site you mention is run by Len Brown's former German sister company. For same time there was a lot of talk here in Central Europe about these saddles – seems to have disappeared.

The flex tree saddles are very popular here in the German speaking countries. Mostly with girls/young women who do not even know where a saddle should sit on a horse and who ride in an arena 99% of the time and hardly ride more than 1 hour at a time, three times a week. Information on saddle trees and saddle fit is hard to come by here. And flexible sounds so good, so gentle, so gentle…. These saddles are heavily advertised here. Maybe due to the fact that the company that imports the saddles to Germany (maybe to all of Europe) owns the Alabama based saddle company (and its higher positioned sister company based elsewhere in the US - Indiana?). These saddles are also heavily endorsed by German/European big name reining competitors. In a German forum it was mentioned that these flex trees have been stiffened up by the (large volume) US production tree company that makes them. If flex is so great, I wonder why? I also noticed that flex saddles here normally are ridden with neoprene or brand name "pressure point elimination " type of pads. Makes no sense to me if a flex tree is such a good thing.

The pressure measuring pad you have shown had been a hype around here some time ago, too. Measuring a horse and rider combination standing still, standing still in the correct posture /position? People who presumingly had no great understanding of statistical terms (standard deviations and confidence intervals were prominently displayed on the result screen along with impressing pictures meant to show some science) where trying to explain "whatever" to well-meaning and uneducated riders of the type mentioned above.

Even when you want to make a tree completely out of foam – I am afraid you are not going to re-invent the wheel. Such a tree has been around for a while. As I understand they are made in Italy. Saddles built on this type are endurance as well as so called "western" saddles. This German site allows a good view at the tree : http://www.distanzreiter.de/index.html?saettel_podium_zubehoer_und_optionen.htm and here is a US side showing some saddle models but not the "western" model : http://www.equineperformanceproducts.com/podium.htm .

You do not even need to make a mold of a horse's back to make sure the tree fits, just use Dennis Lane's card system, also discussed in this forum.

I cannot help it, but the "style" of your posts and this discussion somehow reminds me of the discussion with David G about saddles, saddle trees, and saddle fit we had some time ago.

Tosch

Edited December 2, 2008 by Tosch

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

A lot of nice people on this forum. A lot of knowlege to go with that. I enjoy your honesty and your opinions. Always much to learn. New ideas to hear.

I feel it is aways a balance of a good product, at a reasonable cost and in a timely matter. I think if your in business you always have to look at these things. I feel innovation is something you should always strive for. Wether you use hide, fiberglass or carbon fiber. I agree with Rod you still have to deal with making the saddle tree fit the rider and horse. But the important thing is does it work. As for what I am reading and seeing here Rod's saddle trees work well. But I hear the good fiberglass covered trees work well to. I feel workmanship is the key no matter how you make them.

Should you make the saddle tree to fit just one horse or to make the saddle tree in a general way to try to fit more horse types. That is a good question. I would think if you have the same type horses in your stock no problem. If you have different types of horses your going to have a problem. Switching saddles on different size horses and different breeds of horses would create problems. I read that's why the U.S Calvery breed horses with the same conformation. I would think Rod could shed some light on this subject.

I can see this subject in a sore spot in this forum. I hope no one takes it to personal. Tell I did some research I always connected fiberglass and carbon fiber with planes and boats.