Is This Correct? Chrome Vs Vegetable Tanning

[doe]

I know what I was trying to say, and I think Ambassador also made this point, is that the tone of the article, which purports to be objective but is clearly biased, is a turn-off.

It would be one thing if you acknowledged that both veg tan and chrome tan had their pros and cons, but said that you personally prefer veg tan for your products and that's why you use it. It's another to put forth a slanted article as objective fact. You are driving away potential customers who are turned off by infomercial-type presentations.

[Thor]

Also I doubt that the process for making Veg-tan on a large scale would seem super "natural" if you were to visit a tannery- while the compounds used may have a natural origin, I'm sure that on an industrial scale, there's a lot more chemistry and science involved in getting that perfect final product (especially when you're talking about the dying and finishing process).

He/They are based in Europe and our regulations are quite strict. So no, there's no chemical involved in veg tanning in Europe. What they say is what the customer gets. If not... well I wouldn't want to be in their place.

Dyeing and finishing is a separate step and has little to do with the tanning process.

Actually Mike did explain why and what he claimed. I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Mike (TwinOaks) that there seems to be quite a lack of knowledge about leather on your (Sarden) end. Mike is absolutely right that there are various reasons for certain types of leather. For instance shoes, for which one could use veg tan leather but box calf leather is a lot better. At least for men's shoes. And for as long as one prefers not to have their feet wet in a hurry if it rains. Than again, one would want to have veg tan leather for a rifle scabbard, cause chrome tan would not be so great for the gun...

NStar.. brought up a thread recently with an explanation for genuine leather, in which the person simply proofed he doesn't know leather even though he's selling his products like hot buns.

If you prefer veg tan over chrome tan, that's fine, but to an honest sales person would say so in his article and just state the reasons without putting the other down. Don't you think?

BTW. the tone isn't aggressive at all. It's just being honest. I prefer an honest word over a million sweet little lies... On this note, I'd say back to the drawing board. Besides re-read the headline of this thread. You asked if this is correct. If you're not ready to get flaked, don't ask.

[Sarden]

Guys, I really don't think you are being entirely fair here. From the article:

• Chrome tanned leather will initially be softer and suppler than vegetable tanned leather but will not age well. Over time it will grow prone to breakage.
• Chrome tanned leather is more resistant to water, stains and extreme heat.

Those are pros to chrome leather, but in all honesty we have not found any others apart from chrome leather being better suited as garment leather which, as I have previously written, we will now add to the article.

The first two thirds of the article is a completely neutral description of how and why tanning actually works. Not skewed in any way.

I have admitted we are little biased due to our preferences, but I do believe that the article by and large is an objective look at tanning - albeit slightly biased towards veg tanning, in large part due to the naturalness of this process.

I have received a lot of criticism but little in the way of "evidence". One commenter wrote that chrome tan also gets a nice patina and then used as a reference a leather that is in fact chrome tanned and then vegetable tanned afterwards.

If you have solid facts that disprove our claims I'd be grateful to hear more as we really do want to write an objective piece here. If our preferences towards veg tan are based on false evidence, I would certainly much rather get my facts straight than put out a piece that is plain wrong.

I appreciate the potential turn-off caused by bias and will certainly have a second look at the article to see if the wording ought to be changed. But I don't really think it is that slanted — we do in fact promote both veg tan and chrome tan products on our platform.

​As previously written, if you research online, you will find most leather aficionados praising veg tan, not chrome tan. I don't know, maybe it's an America / Europe thing ...

[Sarden]

"The tone isn't aggressive at all. It's just being honest. I prefer an honest word over a million sweet little lies"

Alright, I think I'm getting out of this one. I hardly asked for "a million sweet little lies". I simply prefer discussing facts instead of throwing accusations around. What's the point of that?

I have repeatedly admitted lacking knowledge. Which is why I came here. To learn.

[TwinOaks]

This may seem a little off-topic, but bear with me....

Scientific process, regardless of the complexity of the components, is always very simple. Observe a phenomenon, state a hypothesis, test it, and then state the results of the tests. In this case, I feel the first two are backwards. As has been said, there is a bias towards veg-tanned leather. That leads to the process being State the hypothesis (veg-tan is best), then observe and test FOR results that support the hypothesis. It's absolutely fine if you prefer one leather over the other, and if you are searching for evidence to support that then you'll likely find it. But that doesn't mean that contradictory evidence can be discarded or discounted. Also, I suggest that it is nigh impossible to write an OBJECTIVE article when one admits to having a bias in one direction or another. It's too easy for personal values and opinions to effect the writing - even unintentionally.

Now - some specifics: Chrome tanned leather that gets a patina - pig, goat, horse, cow, and some of the exotics like ostrich and alligator. The patina comes from repeated exposure to moisture and oils, as well as light friction. Which means: it gets handled a lot by sweaty hands or goes in and out of a pocket....or gets a fair amount of grease/oil on them some other way. My wallet is an off the shelf cheapy from Walmart ( Because I don't have a machine that'll sew that fine, and I don't have any 1/2 oz leather). I know based on the price point alone ($12) that it isn't veg-retanned from Horween....but it's got a nice little patina on it. My work boots have a suede-ish finish called Nubuck....and there's shiny patina areas around the heel cups, and the toes where they've banged up against stuff....or the suede-ish finish was rubbed smooth.

At the beginning of post #18, cited from the article :

• Chrome tanned leather will initially be softer and suppler than vegetable tanned leather but will not age well. Over time it will grow prone to breakage.

Ummmm....no. That's closer to backwards than truth. Because the leather fibers are softer, they will be LESS PRONE to breakage, though CT is in general not as tough or hard as vegtan. This means it could be cut more easily. However - Chrome tanned leather for garments is usually thinner than veg-tan because hey, who wants to wear a 15lb jacket? If the thought is to point at the bottoms of bags/purses, etc. and say "see, that leather broke", then I'd insist on differentiating between abrasion and breakage. Does veg-tan have greater strength in some applications? Certainly, that's why items that need strength are often made with VT. But in something like a bag, the repeated flexing of a flap or repeated folding in the same place, will cause the fibers to become weak. Weak enough to break? Probably not, as long as the leather is cared for. Wait....what was that? "Cared for"? Here is another benefit of using CT - because of the difference in tanning process, CT leather doesn't require the conditioning that VT needs. Yes, you can wipe down your jacket and car seats, and should. But straight from the hide, the CT needs less conditioning and finishing work, as well as less maintenance over the long run.

Hmmm....evidence....well, I've still got a leather jacket from 23 years ago, as well as a leather blazer (suede) that was handed down from my dad's uncle...I'm pretty sure it's from the late 1960's. Both are still pliable, still comfortable to wear, and both still look great (though admittedly, I think MY leather jacket looks good with the scuff marks- each one has it's own tale). So, that's two examples of some CT that have aged well, and aren't prone to breakage. My dad has pair of Florsheim shoe's that he's had for around 35 years...do those count?

So....if it's so great, why don't we use it for everything???? Because VT is better for some things, and trying to carve on CT isn't very fun.
Incidentally, if the intent is to write an objective article, then one should NOT overlook the OTHER leathers that are produced....to include - brain tanned (already mentioned), Alum tanned (or Tawed), and UN-tanned (commonly called Rawhide).

Oh, and the subcategories, too, to include Oil tanned, Bridle leather, Latigo, re-tanned (both directions), etc.

[needles]

sarden you are running a business and the information you are trying to promote needs to be factual..

if you want to know the facts concerning leather tanning, you need to speak to the professionals within that industry..

international leather maker, is one organisation and magazine for said industry,, that often have the highest professionals in the industry, such as Mike Redwood,, I would suggest joining paying the subscription and gaining actual facts, that you can use to sell your clients wares...... etc

and here.... institute for creative leather technologies, in Northampton UK

[Sarden]

Needles, thanks. Very useful. We certainly want to provide factual information and after some pretty thorough research, we believed the article above was factual - although admittedly a little slanted.

I will have a closer look at the two sources you suggest. Looks interesting.

TwinOaks - thanks. There were some interesting facts and observations in your latest posts.

We'll have a thorough second look at the piece and I will repost it here when a new draft is finished. If nothing else, then for your entertainment ...

Our aim is to present a fair amount of facts and details but to be more inclusive than an article for professionals would be. We are a business, of course, and need revenue to survive, but our mission is also to help raise general awareness of quality producers and products.

Thanks again,

[Thor]

Our aim is to present a fair amount of facts and details but to be more inclusive than an article for professionals would be. We are a business, of course, and need revenue to survive, but our mission is also to help raise general awareness of quality producers and products.

I'm not a fan of chrome-tanned leather either, but it serves a purpose and in fact is a quality product. For instance try making a car seat covered in veg-tan leather or do the same with chrome-tanned leather. If your driving a convertible and you'd have veg-tanned leather on your seats and being rained on, you wouldn't be very happy after. Your leather wouldn't dry very well vs. chrome-tanned on which you'd just wipe it off and your done.

We used to own a BMW convertible and it did have some patina although it was chrome-tanned leather.

Where about in Europe are you located. I'm quite sure that a few people would be willing and able to help, select quality producers (tanneries). I know one in Germany I could recommend without hesitation in regards of veg-tanned leather. Some of the best chrome-tanned leathers comes from Elmo which is in Sweden I believe.

[Thor]

Here's a graphic you might want to look into. http://www.ghurka.com/media/wysiwyg/Infographic/luxury-leather-infographic.jpg

One may or may not get the feeling it's slanted towards veg-tanned leather but I believe this is kinda what you are looking for as well.

[oltoot]

I, for one, appreciate Sarden's original approach, Is This Correct?. Although I don't feel a great need to know more about leather after 50+ years in the business and considerable study of the national and global history of the tanning craft/industry, there is always more to learn or to reinforce. Some of the comments appear a bit snarky and egocentric but I hope that Sarden will be able to rise above and accomplish his original objective of producing an informative introduction to Leather. Though it appears that however it turns out it will always have some detractors. That appears to be the price of trying.

Edited May 4, 2015 by oltoot