Did I Get Bad Veg-Tan?

[Tokarsky]

I recently bought a side of Veg-tan from Weaver leather, and had it cut into 3/4" straps for making a bulk order of camera straps for a customer. When I received the leather straps (side) I started looking them over and most of them have a good 40-50" of quality leather, then it starts to degrade into this more fibrous portion that feels like its delaminating. Is this normal as whole sides go, or did they sell me a bullshit side of leather, cut it up and hope I'd not notice? I'll post pics as soon as I get home from the office, but I was hoping to get 2 straps out of each single weaver cut strap, but because of this nasty portion of leather it doesn't look like I'll be able to, on almost every long strap...

Did I get a side with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_rot_%28leather%29 that isn't red?

[Art]

Tokarsky,

I just sounds like runout into the neck area of the hide. The neck area can be quite fibrous, but this effect has varying degrees, some hides a lot and some hides none. If you want long straps, you really have to tell them so that they can select a large hide with a tighter neck area. You can be picky, and most suppliers will try to accommodate you, but don't be a PIA.

Art

[Tokarsky]

Edited April 30, 2015 by Tokarsky

[Art]

That is the neck area, and sometimes you get a hide like that although I would have expected better from Weaver as you were cutting it into straps. There will be unusable or at least second quality in portions of any hide, I've seen plenty like yours, but I have seen many better ones.

Art

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

And that is EXACTLY why I will never let someone else cut leather that I am going to use. That shoulder/neck area could have been used for another project if left intact, now you have a whole bunch of straps that may not be good for anything. Not rippin' on ya, just the voice of experience speaking. Hides with good, usable shoulder areas, with no drop-off in weight and a minimum of wrinkles seems to nearly be a thing of the past. Try cutting driving lines from leather like you received (only harness leather of course). It's no wonder the synthetics have become popular. I've seen new old stock lines that were made back in the '30's and you can't tell the butt from the neck or the shoulder. Good, solid hide from one end to the other, and no wrinkles. I dream about getting leather like that.

[Tokarsky]

I guess my main issue with this is that they sold it as a "8/9oz Strap Side" basically 1/2 of this side is unusable at 8/9oz for anything strap related.

[Sonydaze]

I buy a fair amount of leather from Weaver. Since I live on Vancouver Island, going and picking hides is not an option. Generally Weaver sends me reasonably good hides. You have to understand the grade of any particular hide you are ordering and adjust your expectations. Over the years, I have had a few problems but Weaver has always worked with me to a good resolution.

When ordering, specify any (reasonable) special needs and they are good to try and match them.

[Tokarsky]

I buy a fair amount of leather from Weaver. Since I live on Vancouver Island, going and picking hides is not an option. Generally Weaver sends me reasonably good hides. You have to understand the grade of any particular hide you are ordering and adjust your expectations. Over the years, I have had a few problems but Weaver has always worked with me to a good resolution.

When ordering, specify any (reasonable) special needs and they are good to try and match them.

Yeah I can respect that, and upfront I gave them a ton of info with the order i.e. don't cut anything under 40", I wanted a longer hide hopefully at least 84" to get at least 2 40" straps per strap, the length they got right, the quality not so much. But this was my first side, I was hoping to have mostly usable material, with this I have about 60% usable, that just seems wrong. Someone elsewhere mentioned that maybe they tried to force a 4/5oz side to be a 8/9oz side, hoping I wouldn't notice since it was pre cut. Hopefully my pleasant but descriptive email gets the ball rolling on a resolution.

Side note, I'm down here in the Seattle area, neighbor!

Edited April 30, 2015 by Tokarsky

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

I think Weaver is a big enough company that they aren't going to try to cheat you by sticking you with a 4/5 when you ordered a 8/9 and hoping you wouldn't notice. I would sooner expect that from a smaller company, but there are so many people that work at Weaver and each person is just doing their job. They might suck at their job, but I don't think anyone is out to cheat you in that way. You have to understand the qualities within a hide. A cow only has one butt, and the neck and shoulder is not going to be the same quality as the butt. Their term "strap side" refers more to the type of leather than if that particular hide is suited the whole length for a given type of strap. We harness makers run into this with every hide we cut; that's part of the job, evaluating each and every hide and deciding what type of parts would be suitable to cut from it, I'm not saying you don't have a legitimate gripe with Weaver, because I've had to call and complain and send leather back also. But I'm thinking MAYBE you need to reconsider your expectations for cutting your straps the total length of ANY hide. I receive very few hides that make the grade for cutting a full length strap which will remain unlined and used at it's full length, such as driving lines. I doubt if it's one in ten. I have just learned to adjust my expectations and use every hide as best I can. When I get one that I know I'll be able to cut lines from, I set it aside, and that's the ONLY thing that gets cut from that side until I run down far enough toward the belly to make it unsuitable for lines. It often means an increased cost to the consumer, because of increased waste factor, but that's just part of the job and part of life.

[Tokarsky]

I think Weaver is a big enough company that they aren't going to try to cheat you by sticking you with a 4/5 when you ordered a 8/9 and hoping you wouldn't notice. I would sooner expect that from a smaller company, but there are so many people that work at Weaver and each person is just doing their job. They might suck at their job, but I don't think anyone is out to cheat you in that way. You have to understand the qualities within a hide. A cow only has one butt, and the neck and shoulder is not going to be the same quality as the butt. Their term "strap side" refers more to the type of leather than if that particular hide is suited the whole length for a given type of strap. We harness makers run into this with every hide we cut; that's part of the job, evaluating each and every hide and deciding what type of parts would be suitable to cut from it, I'm not saying you don't have a legitimate gripe with Weaver, because I've had to call and complain and send leather back also. But I'm thinking MAYBE you need to reconsider your expectations for cutting your straps the total length of ANY hide. I receive very few hides that make the grade for cutting a full length strap which will remain unlined and used at it's full length, such as driving lines. I doubt if it's one in ten. I have just learned to adjust my expectations and use every hide as best I can. When I get one that I know I'll be able to cut lines from, I set it aside, and that's the ONLY thing that gets cut from that side until I run down far enough toward the belly to make it unsuitable for lines. It often means an increased cost to the consumer, because of increased waste factor, but that's just part of the job and part of life.

That's a fair statement, and again this is 100% new to me, first side I've ever bought. I think the hardest part is since ordering online I had to buy it sight unseen. I'd have gladly paid a bit extra to get a nicer or bigger or whatever side, but unfortunately I wasn't given that opportunity. I appreciate the input about adjusting expectations.

[Art]

Yeah I can respect that, and upfront I gave them a ton of info with the order i.e. don't cut anything under 40", I wanted a longer hide hopefully at least 84" to get at least 2 40" straps per strap, the length they got right, the quality not so much. But this was my first side, I was hoping to have mostly usable material, with this I have about 60% usable, that just seems wrong. Someone elsewhere mentioned that maybe they tried to force a 4/5oz side to be a 8/9oz side, hoping I wouldn't notice since it was pre cut. Hopefully my pleasant but descriptive email gets the ball rolling on a resolution.

Side note, I'm down here in the Seattle area, neighbor!

Tokarsky,

I can almost guarantee you that the people selecting and cutting your leather at Weaver are not custom leatherworkers. They really wouldn't have a clue what you need or what you are trying to accomplish. That being said, maybe you were expecting more from a side than you are really going to get. I do remember when sides had a lot more yield, but that was some time ago. Back in the '90s, we used to make holsters out of shoulders, not so much now. We buy full sides when we can select them ourselves, and that means going to the tannery or maybe the supplier (we go to the tannery), but if I need clean straps (like you wanted) I order backs; higher price, but no shoulder and no belly left over. If you read the Weaver Catalog, most of their stuff is Tannery Run graded, which means you get the next hide off the pile. It is just business, you do what you have to, and I guess you may have learned a little more about the leather business. If you order a strap back, cut into one inch straps, the guy who selects your leather and maybe cuts it, doesn't necessarily know you need perfect 80" straps, and even if he went through the entire pallet of sides, it might be hard to find anything that will give you the yield you wanted.

Art

[Tokarsky]

Tokarsky,

I can almost guarantee you that the people selecting and cutting your leather at Weaver are not custom leatherworkers. They really wouldn't have a clue what you need or what you are trying to accomplish. That being said, maybe you were expecting more from a side than you are really going to get. I do remember when sides had a lot more yield, but that was some time ago. Back in the '90s, we used to make holsters out of shoulders, not so much now. We buy full sides when we can select them ourselves, and that means going to the tannery or maybe the supplier (we go to the tannery), but if I need clean straps (like you wanted) I order backs; higher price, but no shoulder and no belly left over. If you read the Weaver Catalog, most of their stuff is Tannery Run graded, which means you get the next hide off the pile. It is just business, you do what you have to, and I guess you may have learned a little more about the leather business. If you order a strap back, cut into one inch straps, the guy who selects your leather and maybe cuts it, doesn't necessarily know you need perfect 80" straps, and even if he went through the entire pallet of sides, it might be hard to find anything that will give you the yield you wanted.

Art

Yeah, after I saw what I got I scoured their catalog for an explanation, I without a doubt should have gotten a Strap Double Back.... to finish my job that's what I'll most likely get.

[NVLeatherWorx]

For better quality leather you should think about Hermann Oak. Have never had an issue with any of their products regardless of where I sourced it from. DO NOT purchase it from Tandy though as you will be paying WAY TOO MUCH for it, there are other options. I have been using H.O. for years and have found that their hides have the cleanest flesh sides (even in the neck areas) than any other hide out there. Not bashing Weaver but they typically stock their materials and supplies from the same sources as any of the other smaller suppliers and Tandy so you really aren't receiving much more than if you were to shop in a Tandy store, the name of the store is the only difference.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Weaver does carry Hermann Oak, but as I think someone mentioned above, only in TR grade. Honestly, I have gotten some really nice leather from Weaver, as well as some crap (which is basically the simplified description of TR), and I have also gotten some crap direct from Hermann Oak. Their hides do typically have less run-off in the shoulder and fewer wrinkles, as well as fewer cuts on the flesh side, which may be the biggest nemesis to a harness maker. Buying leather is always a crap-shoot, kind of like buying hay. Of all the hides processed, very few are perfect, or maybe none, so we have to take what's out there and make the best of it. Not trying to be quarrelsome regarding what NVLeatherworx said above, (for some reason I can't get my computer to quote) but I don't consider Weaver anywhere close to being on the same level as Tandy. Weaver is NOT a small supplier. OF course I haven't looked at a Tandy catalog in a few years, nor walked in one of their stores, but I do buy from Weaver at least once a month, sometimes 2-3 times a month, and it's rare that I have they don't have what I need in harness hardware. I'd hate to try to build harness using only Tandy as a supplier, but then it probably depends on the type of work a person does. But I digress, as far as Hermann Oak, I've only ever bought from Weaver or direct from HO. There may be better sources out there than Weaver that I don't know about.

[Tokarsky]

For better quality leather you should think about Hermann Oak. Have never had an issue with any of their products regardless of where I sourced it from. DO NOT purchase it from Tandy though as you will be paying WAY TOO MUCH for it, there are other options. I have been using H.O. for years and have found that their hides have the cleanest flesh sides (even in the neck areas) than any other hide out there. Not bashing Weaver but they typically stock their materials and supplies from the same sources as any of the other smaller suppliers and Tandy so you really aren't receiving much more than if you were to shop in a Tandy store, the name of the store is the only difference.

That was Herman Oak via Weaver. I didn't know anything about the TR grade, maybe that's where it went wrong.

[NVLeatherWorx]

As a minimum you would want the B Grade H.O. in order to ensure that such issues as you have run into aren't routine. Although there are some who believe that Weaver is a huge supplier/mover of product they don't even come close to what Tandy moves on a daily basis but that is another story altogether. I have run across a few suppliers of H.O. who list the product at an unbelievable price (lower than you would expect for something of quality with the H.O. brand) but don't give much information in the description/details about what grade it is. Don't know if it is intentional or just an oversight but it does cause issues like you ran into and, in my humble opinion, it isn't very customer friendly when not giving ALL of the pertinent details. That is just the way I see, others may see it differently and that is entirely acceptable. After all, that is what makes us all different.

Hope your next side of leather is of a better quality than the last one.