Another Saddle Stitching Help Thread

[jaeiger]

Hi all, I've been having a bit of trouble getting my front and back saddle stitches looking good and matching each other. I always get at least one side that, if not totally straight (- - - - - ), is at least not as sharply diagonal as the other side.

Before I go further, let me preface my post by saying that I've seen both of Nigel Armitage's saddle stitch videos multiple times in trying to fix this.

I've tried several different methods of stitching (first needle under the loop made by second needle, over the loop, clockwise knot, counter-clockwise knot) and haven't been be able to find a method that gives me consistent results on both sides. I ended up making a test piece of leather, which I'll show below, where I put all of my attempts on one piece, and hopefully you guys can help me figure out what's going on.

The holes were made with my diamond chisel, so as to remove any awl positioning/angle inconsistencies.

With the exception of one test (which, as it would happen, ended up being my best result), I stitch left hand priority - awl in left handle, left hand needle going in first, and away from me, so that the holes are pointing down and away from me. For the other test, I tried stitching with the same hands order, but towards me instead of away.

Test piece front side

Please excuse my archaic hieroglyphic labeling. From left top right, top to bottom:

Top left: Awl in left hand, left hand needle first, left hand needle goes over the loop made by the right hand needle. Stitching towards me (i.e. end of hole is up and towards me).
Top middle: Awl in left hand, left hand needle first, left hand needle goes under loop made by the right hand needle. Stitching away from me (end of hole is down and away from me).

Top right: Awl in left hand, left hand needle first, left hand needle goes over the loop made by the right hand needle, Stitching away from me (end of hole is down and away from me).
Bottom middle: Same as top middle, but I make an overhand knot with by looping the left hand needle thread clockwise over the right needle as it comes through.

Bottom right: Same as top right, but I make an overhand knot by looping the left hand needle thread clockwise over the right needle as it comes through.

Test piece back side

Note that the left to right order is now reversed (because it's flipped over. Top left is now top right, and vice versa).
We can see that the only samples that look good is top middle and top right (which is top middle and top left from the first image, respectively). This seems counter intuitive to me as, any way I try to figure it out, these two methods result in the second needle getting pushed up at the end of each stitch, when, according to Nigel's videos, it should be pushed down to match the holes (for when I'm stitching away from me -> hole is down and away), and the opposite for when I stitch towards me.

I tried making a test piece using the top middle method to see how this plays out on a longer amount of stitching:

Test piece front

Test piece back

This time each hole was made with an awl so there'll be some inconsistencies with positioning. In any case, we can still see that the front side stitching is actually less angled than the back side stitching. I think this may be related to the tension as when I pull harder, it seems to make a nicer angle. However, it never gets to be as nice of an angle as the back side.

In the past, for my old pieces I used top right method from the test piece, and my front sides would look great while my back sides did not. I've seen Nigel's videos numerous times, and tried out various techniques while removing my awl positioning as a variable and still can't seem to get it right.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[DavidL]

I prefer to do ian's way majority of the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zTOqJCWbfY

It creates an upward slant towards you on the backside, almost like casting the thread ( throwing the loop away from you) but it has less tension from what I noticed. Sometimes when casting the thread on thin leathers the front stitches will straighten, I have not noticed this when doing ians way.

1.Casting the thread is the best solution IMO with thick leather (upward stitch slant, back and front)

2.Putting the second needle at the top of the hole is the best solution IMO for chrome tan leathers and combination tan leathers IMO (downward back stitch slant, almost flat looking). Something about the leather closing up more than veg tan makes the stitches want to stay compacted together.

3.Putting the needle at the bottom of the hole is the best solution IMO for most leathers with the exception of the two situations above ( upward stitch slant back and front)

You can use the 3 different ways on different types and thickness of leather but thats what works best in my testing. I haven't tried using a reverse stitching iron yet, so theres still more that I could test out..

Side notes:

When done correctly all stitches should look the same on the front more or less (all three types of stitching), with the back side stitches looking different. The second solution will look the most different on the back. 1 and 3 will look the similar, on thick leathers they are essentially the same stitch. Number 3 has the ability to be used on thinner leathers where number 1 may flatten the front stitch. Number 2 is harder to get the backstitch straight than 1 and 3, chrome tan and comb. tan work well with this way.

Pulling the stitch upwards or downwards will help the thread lay a certain way. If the back stitch (left side, awl in right hand) needs to lay above angling the thread in the right hand upwards will help the thread (backside stitch) go up, while angling the left hand thread down will make the thread go down.

Last tip. If you stitched a whole piece you can always use an awl to push the thread to the correct position, sometimes this will not work if you changed the needle positioning.

At first I thought there was a way that could be used on all leathers, after a while you notice that once you perfect your technique the leather will dictate how the stitch will look. The only thing you can do is choose the appropriate stitch, awl, tension, thread size, SPI for the chosen leather. You do not choose a stitch, tension,thread,spi before hand and pick a piece of leather, you look at a piece of leather and decide on everything afterwards. Change the type of leather or thickness if you can not achieve that stitch.

The stitch may look different from one leather to the next, but very similar if they are similar leathers. The only way to know how it is done is by doing it over and over until you can see the "correct way".

Edited June 27, 2015 by DavidL

[King's X]

Take a look at Garyipip on YouTube. He just put out a new video on how he saddle stitches. Maybe seeing it another way will help you. Al Stohlman's hand stitching book is my bible. It is a very good reference to have in your shop. Good luck

[oldhat]

Hi jaeiger, i think i can see one of the things that is affecting the look of the back stitches, it apperars that the stitching chisel is coming out in different places most likely due to you not holding it perfectly straight every time, this is something i used to struggle with in the early days. If you find this too hard to do then just mark a line on each side, than only mark the stitches without going right through, then use the awl to push through to your guide line.

[jaeiger]

Thanks guys for the great, detailed responses! It's been a huge help. While the suggested methods listed didn't end up working for me, they did get me thinking to the point where I think I've got it down now - left hand awl but right hand needle in first, left hand needle going in second and on top of that. Stitching away from me, with the far point of the hole being down and away. Seems like I get better diagonals on both sides without casting the thread but, as DavidL mentioned, maybe that's just as per the leather. And oldhat - definitely! I have to work on my positioning for sure.

[DavidL]

heres something else to consider:

Pic 1(not my work)

holes are pricked before hand front and gusset. Looking closely you can make out that he uses the same pricking iron on both piece. The stitch created is the most consistent stitch hands down, its almost impossible to make a bad stitch if you take the extra time to align the leather marks, so they meet exactly in the middle. Margin of error is lower since you don't have to use your awl on thick leathers or around bends like that pic.

Doing more tests casting the stitch works even on 2.5 ounce leather, only with thicker threads like tiger thread on thin leathers does it change the stitch.

[johnv474]

One way to make the stitches slant: while the front and back pieces are still separate, use a stitching fork to create your holes on each. Yes, this means that the holes on the back will be the opposite slant as the ones on the front. Don't worry about that.

Apply your glue to each, then carefully connect them. Pushpins can help align the holes.

When you go to stitch, use a smallish diamond awl with the awl blade vertical, then insert through the center of the aligned holes. Insert rear needle, then bring the second needle up behind the first to form a cross. Insert second needle at the TOP of the stitch, so it goes above the loop created by the 1st needle. Pull the 2nd needle up and away, and the 1st needle down and toward you.

When stitching away from you, form a cross with the second needle closer to you, and insert the second needle in the bottom, and under the loop formed by the first needle.

This is the closest I've found to identical stitches front and back, both slanted.

[25b]

One way to make the stitches slant: while the front and back pieces are still separate, use a stitching fork to create your holes on each......

...

This is the closest I've found to identical stitches front and back, both slanted.

I explained this exact method several months ago and was accused of being a liar and the method being "impossible" to accomplish. I am glad to see that I'm not the only one that saddle stitches like this.

[johnv474]

It's not easy to align the holes, but it is definitely not impossible. I'm not concerned about the difference in angle since any part of the hole not opened by the awl is cemented anyway. I'll have to look for your old thread.

I hit enter but my paragraphs aren't appearing. Ugh.

I've been having success with Maine Thread in 0.030 and 0.040 thicknesses at 5 spi and an Osborne #43 awl. 4-5 cord linen would be about the same.

You know where it looks really good? When you use two different shades of thread as a detail that allows you to explain the virtues of hand sewn goods while also being proof that the item was, in fact, sewn by hand.

[DavidL]

I tested out some stitching on tumbled veg tan and embossed chrome tan, using a regular pricking iron but on the back side only, meaning that the front side will have the angle of a reverse iron. When stitching the stitches came out very consistent and the reg. way of stitching ( right needle on the top of the hole) is the same result as casting the thread. casting the thread towards you creates a near perfect flat backstitch, and slanted front. Corners should look nicer with this set up.

I might have to pick up an inverse iron just because its quicker than the reg. iron when casting the thread.

[kevinp]

This is another way

https://youtu.be/RuTn9czGkQ8

[johnv474]

It would be nice to see the end result of the stitching in that video. I'll have to imitate it to see.

[MudBugWill]

I'm a pricker of both sides as well. This, for me, achieves perfect stitches on both sides everytime. It does add some complexity of assembly however.