Making Oblong Punches

[stu925]

Ok so I've boogered my last holster belt slot. I've been cutting my 1 3/4" belt slots with a 1/4" punch and a 1 1/2" chisel. Some slots come out ok and then there's the mess I made of one tonight when the chisel went in at an angle. Completely ruined the holster but luckily I cut the slot before I did any stitching. I did some research on a 1 3/4" oblong punch and am not too happy about the prices of them. I've decided to fire up my forge and see if I can make one. So my thought is to use a piece of 1 1/2" black iron pipe and forge it down. I'm sure someone here has made their own oblong punches so any advice I can get here would be appreciated. I can grind the bevel on a 1x30" belt sander and then finish the cutting edge with stones. My question is am I correct in my thinking of using 1 1/2" pipe or should I go smaller 1" or maybe 1 1/4". My next question is will I be able to harden the edge of that black iron? I suspect that it won't harden but I've never tried it. I do enough holsters that the punch will need to hold an edge as I don't want to have to repair the edge every time I use it. Is there a better material to use than black iron? Maybe if all this goes well and I can build it without a significant time investment I can offer them to members here for a reasonable price.

Stu

Edited October 13, 2015 by stu925

[dikman]

I doubt you would be able to harden black pipe as it's unlikely to have enough carbon in it. You could case-harden the edge, but as it will require sharpening from time to time you'll end up removing the case-hardening at the edge, leaving you with a soft cutting edge. One way would be to cut the edge itself from a piece of flat tool steel bar (to give you the correct oval shape), forge your pipe to the correct size/shape, weld the tool steel cutting edge to the pipe then harden and sharpen it.

A fair bit of work, though.

Whatever you do, you'll either have to make the whole thing from high carbon steel, or use high carbon for the cutting edge and weld it to a soft steel body.

[TinkerTailor]

4130 steel bicycle frames yield lots of sizes of tubing. It is stiff and hard enough in its native state to make adequate punches and is usually free. It is not really hardenable, but still works ok. Better than gas pipe that's for sure. The edges don't tend to bend and stay sharp for quite a while if you are careful not to over drive them into the cutting surface. I have a few made this way and they are all good, some with alot of use. I have also sharpened chromoly sockets because sometimes when I am punching holes through multiple layers, I don't want the stretch at the top of the hole a standard punch makes due to the wedge. If you sharpen the inside, you get a straight sided hole. It helps to pre punch the hole a smaller size with a standard punch so the plug doesn't get stuck in the socket.

[stu925]

Ok so further research into this has revealed that Super Quench will harden the black iron somewhat. It won't be as hard as say knife or chisel steel but should help maintain the edge at least a bit better than it would normally. I'm going to try it and see how it goes. Forging a piece of tool steel into a punch would be a great deal of work and may eventually be done as a more permanent solution, for now I'm going black iron and we'll see how that works. I'll update this thread when it's done and tested and let you guys know how it goes.

Stu

[dikman]

It will be an interesting experiment. I remember reading (somewhere!) about Superquench. Apparently the old original formula worked very well, unfortunately it used some toxic materials (of course, that's why it worked so well) so in these OH&S days it's a no-no.

No harm in trying the stuff that's now available, however.

[stu925]

It will be an interesting experiment. I remember reading (somewhere!) about Superquench. Apparently the old original formula worked very well, unfortunately it used some toxic materials (of course, that's why it worked so well) so in these OH&S days it's a no-no.

No harm in trying the stuff that's now available, however.

Looks like I should expect a Rockwell hardness of somewhere between 40-45. Not super high but should be enough for what I need. If it gets me through 3 or 4 holster without needing to be sharpened I'd be happy. I'll be out at the forge tomorrow and hopefully have that tool completed by tomorrow evening or at least completed enough for a test run. I won't be tempering the tool and I'll only be hardening the cutting edge. Bought all the stuff for the Super Quench and the pipe today so we'll see how it goes.

Stu

[TinkerTailor]

4130 steel - 92 rockwell

http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=m4130r

[dikman]

There's any number of steels available that can be hardened, but Stu is trying to do it as simply as possible. Using any of the tool steels to form into a large oblong shape would be a lot of work for most of us amateur blacksmiths, whereas the pipe basically just needs to be shaped and ground.

What are you using to punch on, Stu? That will have a bearing on how long the cutting edge will last (I'm using a hardwood log, as I've found the mass of the thing makes a big difference when punching things).

[TinkerTailor]

Did you miss the part where old bicycle frames are free chromoly tubing? Even the High tensile 1020 tubing of cheap frames is higher in carbon than black iron pipe. It lists as 66 rockwell hot rolled and 72 cold rolled. At 0.20% carbon hi tensile 1020 bike tubes should harden just fine.

These tubes show up in LOTS of sizes. It can be heated and worked. Its also commonly used in race car/offroad/atv/motorcycle chassis shops so cut offs may be available at a fab shop.

I crushed a heated piece of 7/8"d 1/16" wall chromo in a vise and it made a 1 1/8" X 3/16" slot punch. I don't have it in front of me but I think 1 1/8 tubing made a 1-1/2 inch punch 3/16 wide. Only needed a propane torch a vise and alot of filing. Thats as beginner blacksmith as it gets.

http://www.coburnmyers.com/materials-carbon-steel/

http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/731539-high-tensile-1020-butted-tubing.html

half way down is a post withthe material specs for 4130 and 1020 as used in bicycles.

Edited October 15, 2015 by TinkerTailor

[stu925]

Ok so the black iron was an utter failure. Not because of the hardening issues, it actually hardened up pretty well with the Super Quench but more because of the fact that 1" pipe when forged down to size ends up 1 1/2" and 1 1/4" when forged down to 1 3/4" ends up with a slot almost 1/2" wide, to get a 1/4" wide slot it ends up 2" long. Also because of the thicknes of the wall of the pipe it needs to be heavily tapered or you really need to hammer it to get it through even one piece of 9oz leather, didn't even bother trying 2 layers. So it seems I'm back to the drawing board. I'm thinking I take a 10" sawz-all blade and bend it to shape and then forge weld it. Not exactly sure what I'll do for a handle yet but I'll figure that out after I get the blade bent around a jig. This may be a project for the weekend.

The Super Quench worked as advertised and did harden the iron pipe although I wouldn't ask too much of it. On the other hand I have a Railroad spike knife I made that hardened up really well in the super quench, must have a bit more carbon than the iron pipe. If anyone here is running their own forge and looking to harden mild steel, super quench may be the way to go.

Stu

[stu925]

Did you miss the part where old bicycle frames are free chromoly tubing? Even the High tensile 1020 tubing of cheap frames is higher in carbon than black iron pipe. It lists as 66 rockwell hot rolled and 72 cold rolled. At 0.20% carbon hi tensile 1020 bike tubes should harden just fine.

These tubes show up in LOTS of sizes. It can be heated and worked. Its also commonly used in race car/offroad/atv/motorcycle chassis shops so cut offs may be available at a fab shop.

I crushed a heated piece of 7/8"d 1/16" wall chromo in a vise and it made a 1 1/8" X 3/16" slot punch. I don't have it in front of me but I think 1 1/8 tubing made a 1-1/2 inch punch 3/16 wide. Only needed a propane torch a vise and alot of filing. Thats as beginner blacksmith as it gets.

http://www.coburnmyers.com/materials-carbon-steel/

http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/731539-high-tensile-1020-butted-tubing.html

half way down is a post withthe material specs for 4130 and 1020 as used in bicycles.

Basically my issue here is that I would need to go find a frame. The iron pipe was readily available and fairly cheap. If I happen to come across a frame I may snatch it up and see how it goes. I do like the idea of using something that's round to begin with as it would certainly make the job easier.

There's any number of steels available that can be hardened, but Stu is trying to do it as simply as possible. Using any of the tool steels to form into a large oblong shape would be a lot of work for most of us amateur blacksmiths, whereas the pipe basically just needs to be shaped and ground.

What are you using to punch on, Stu? That will have a bearing on how long the cutting edge will last (I'm using a hardwood log, as I've found the mass of the thing makes a big difference when punching things).

Generally I use a Poly cutting board for all my work. Almost all of my work is done at night after the kids are in bed, a log might be a bit inconvenient in my office and I'm pretty sure the wife wouldn't be too happy about it. Lately I've taken for doing all my punching on a scrap piece of leather on my marble slab. That helps deaden the noise a bit and it's a little more gentle on the tools than the poly board although I do need to be careful and make sure the tools can't reach the stone.

[TinkerTailor]

Call a bike shop or two. Shops that sell used bikes usually have more crap frames lying around that the race type shops. I recycle 1-2 frames a week during the summer at the shop i work at . Offer some barley bucks to get them to save you a steel frame or two. Don't give them the beer until you get some steel.....

There are frequently dirt cheap bikes at thrift stores in the fall..

Also, I see you make duty gear for law enforcement. They may also have confiscated/accident damages frames. Police frequently have unclaimed bikes or ones they picked up abandoned on the street sitting around. The police here sell off all the usable bikes in an auction every year, and scrap the rest.

Ask them where the guy selling/scrapping old bikes is.They will know. If they don't, ask yourself who is looking for stolen bikes.....

[dikman]

Stu, a sawz-all blade could be worth a try. If you can make the "handle" from pipe to the right size/shape, then shape your cutting edge and tack weld it to the handle that might work.

[TinkerTailor]

There's any number of steels available that can be hardened, but Stu is trying to do it as simply as possible. Using any of the tool steels to form into a large oblong shape would be a lot of work for most of us amateur blacksmiths, whereas the pipe basically just needs to be shaped and ground

I'm thinking I take a 10" sawz-all blade and bend it to shape and then forge weld it. Not exactly sure what I'll do for a handle yet but I'll figure that out after I get the blade bent

Stu

Stu, a sawz-all blade could be worth a try. If you can make the "handle" from pipe to the right size/shape, then shape your cutting edge and tack weld it to the handle that might work.

You have got to be kidding me.....One is talking about forge welding a sawz-all blade into a ring? The other is talking about buzz boxing disimilar steels into a punch, one of which is a thin saw blade and do it all without cracking and warping? That is beginner home blacksmith skills? That is the diy easy solution??

These solutions are easier than calling the scrap yard or a bike shop or a welding shop for some proper material??? Wow.

I bet the store that sold the sawz-all blade sold hole saws as well... they would work if you cut out the middle. Why go the hard way?

"Work smart, not hard. Working hard is for the feeble minded."

On second thought, You spend your time how you want. Weld stuff and hammer it for days, Take the long way around who am i to care?

I'm out. I have leatherwork to do.

Edited October 16, 2015 by TinkerTailor

[stu925]

You have got to be kidding me.....One is talking about forge welding a sawz-all blade into a ring? The other is talking about buzz boxing disimilar steels into a punch, one of which is a thin saw blade and do it all without cracking and warping? That is beginner home blacksmith skills? That is the diy easy solution??

These solutions are easier than calling the scrap yard or a bike shop or a welding shop for some proper material??? Wow.

I bet the store that sold the sawz-all blade sold hole saws as well... they would work if you cut out the middle. Why go the hard way?

"Work smart, not hard. Working hard is for the feeble minded."

On second thought, You spend your time how you want. Weld stuff and hammer it for days, Take the long way around who am i to care?

I'm out. I have leatherwork to do.

This is not necessarily about easy way/hard way for me at this point. I like running the forge and any chance I get to do it is more experience for me. Bending a sawz-all blade to shape really won't be much of a trick as long as the blade is annealed before hand and then bent while red hot. It will get a bit thinner on the bend but that's just something to keep in mind when grinding the bevel. The real trick is the forge weld which I have not mastered yet. I've done a couple forge welds, some worked, some didn't so it's definitely something I need to practice. I can have the blade bent and forge welded in about and hour or so, grinding and hardening will take a bit of time but no real issue there. Also part of the draw on the sawz-all blade is I already have the stock. I haven't seen a bike shop around here in 30yrs other than the high end shop on the ride to work, they may have something but I haven't stopped in to check and I don't believe they do much in the way of repairs I'm fairly certain they are strictly sales. A scrap yard is another option but I don't get there much as it's not very convenient for me to get to, that's something I have to make a specific trip for. Honestly if I were to bill myself for my time it would be cheaper to just buy the punch but I'm stubborn and kind of thick skulled so I'll make it myself and probably end up buying it anyway before it's over with. Long way/short way this is really more about the journey at this stage of the game.

The pipe idea was more to give me a tool I could get working right away, I didn't expect it to be a quality tool. I knew I would either be making something a bit higher quality or buying something eventually. As it stands right now, I'll have to keep using the punch and chisel routine for a while until I can build what I'm looking for. It works but I've never been particularly happy with the results and honestly feel that it's one of the few areas that really needs improvement in my holsters. As far as working hard being for the feeble minded, I don't mind working hard. Working hard is what built this country. For now I'll keep going at it the long, hard way because I kind of like that route. This is exactly what got me into leather work in the first place, I like doing things for myself, self reliance is a wonderful thing. I know you think I haven't been hearing what you're saying but I have, it's just not the route I'm headed in right now. I'm sorry if that bothers you, if I end up going that way you're more than welcome to say I told you so.

Stu

[dikman]

Stu, I share your sentiments and know where you're coming from. If you already have the materials then it's worth a try, and if it doesn't work all you have lost is a bit of time but gained more valuable experience in the process. Forge welding the sawz-all blade could be tricky, due to it being on the thin side. Do you have access to a MIG welder? I reckon that if you forge the blade to the required oval shape and then just tack weld the join that might be enough (the MIG will give better control than an arc welder). Then tack weld the blade to the pipe (shaped to match the oval) to act as a handle and if there's any distortion caused by the welding, which should be minimal, it should be an easy matter to put it back in the forge and re-shape it.

Another possibility may be using an old kitchen knife (preferably non-stainless) - from a thrift shop, maybe - and reshaping the blade, then welding it to a suitable handle. Or the blade from an old pair of (small) garden shears. The beauty of a forge, as you know, is the ability to work with old/used/scrap steel and re-shape it to make something useful.

[stu925]

Stu, I share your sentiments and know where you're coming from. If you already have the materials then it's worth a try, and if it doesn't work all you have lost is a bit of time but gained more valuable experience in the process. Forge welding the sawz-all blade could be tricky, due to it being on the thin side. Do you have access to a MIG welder? I reckon that if you forge the blade to the required oval shape and then just tack weld the join that might be enough (the MIG will give better control than an arc welder). Then tack weld the blade to the pipe (shaped to match the oval) to act as a handle and if there's any distortion caused by the welding, which should be minimal, it should be an easy matter to put it back in the forge and re-shape it.

Another possibility may be using an old kitchen knife (preferably non-stainless) - from a thrift shop, maybe - and reshaping the blade, then welding it to a suitable handle. Or the blade from an old pair of (small) garden shears. The beauty of a forge, as you know, is the ability to work with old/used/scrap steel and re-shape it to make something useful.

I don't have access to a welder so that rules out that option. I agree forge welding that thin steel will not be easy, I have a few blades though so I may give it a try anyway. The issue I see is there's a fine line between forge welding heat and burning that thin steel and ruining it. It's worth a try and we'll see what happens. I have some 1/4" rod that I can lock in the vice and make a bending jig so that's how I'll bend it to shape.

Stu

[DrmCa]

Word of caution regarding the bike frames. These days they seem to be made of regular 1018 as they feel too soft.

The only tubular parts in the bikes that seem to be made of high carbon or alloy steel are the steering shaft and seat shaft.

Wicks Aircraft sells 4130 seamless steel tubing in several shapes and many sizes, so if you are making your own tools, they are a good source of steel.

[TinkerTailor]

Word of caution regarding the bike frames. These days they seem to be made of regular 1018 as they feel too soft.

The only tubular parts in the bikes that seem to be made of high carbon or alloy steel are the steering shaft and seat shaft.

Wicks Aircraft sells 4130 seamless steel tubing in several shapes and many sizes, so if you are making your own tools, they are a good source of steel.

As i already stated, race car, atv, and motorcycle fab shops also frequently have chromo cut-offs in the scrap bin.

Most bike manufacturers label their frames as high-tensile or chromo/4130. The high-ten ones are some 1018ish low carbon steel and frequently are seamed tube. Old 1980s and early 90's mountain bikes are commonly chromo and they experimented with all these weird tube sizes to make the frames better offroad, sometimes up to 2" in diameter. BMX bikes have alot more chromo parts and frames than any other type and frequently still are made this way. plus again they use oversize tubes alot. I have never seen a seamed chromo tube in a bike and i have seen/worked on thousands.

Old (pre 1980) Chicago Schwinn are good steel, they has their own proprietary formula i believe.

Interesting that you mention aircraft, in the late 40s there were alot of notable bikes built in france/italy/switzerland using chromo tubing from ww2 airplanes and aluminum for hammered fenders from plane skins. There were a few crashed and blown up here and there. You built a bike with what you could get....It was post war europe. There were barely any passable roads left, much less working cars.

There is a book with pictures of some, "The Golden Age Of Handbuilt Bicycles"

Btw, this is a punch i made from a random seat tube, probably hi tensile, and a sample punching.: I used no heat, just squished it in a vise and then sharpened it. It is seamed tubing , i just made sure the seam was in the middle of the long side so it wouldnt mess with the end curves.