Horn cap and wrap

[mulefool]

Just curious on the horn cap. When you say a donut do you mean a piece that actually has a hole in the middle? That this would be the filler under the cap? And when you cut the cap off the horn pattern and just used the wings for the neck wrap, is it still sewn to the cap? If so is there just like a little tab from the neck wrap that is stitched in right in the back? ( I don't know if that made any sense at all?) I've been wondering if there's a better way to cover my horn caps so I'm always interested in new ideas on it.

[bunkhouseleather]

Heres a pic of the horn cap bottom and the donut filler and the neck wrap. The neck wrap is a separate piec and not connected to the horn cap at all. Hope that helps.

Jake

[mulefool]

Thanks for the pic. I may have another question about it, but I need to mull it over first. Chris

[Go2Tex]

OK, I see now. Thanks. One question though. Why a donut and not just a regular filler? Does your wing piece go up under the donut? If it's not attached, seems like you could just use a full filler piece and tack it down. Must be something I'm not getting.

[Elton Joorisity]

I have the same question...why not use a full sized filler and nail it down?? I can honestly see that whole wrap getting torn loose over time or even quicker dallied to something stout.

[bunkhouseleather]

The guy I learned from told me this was the way to put the neck wrap and horn cap on. But I am always open to new suggestions and ideas. The folks that I have lined up to build some saddles for are definetly going to test them out so I want to learn the best way to put 'em together. Could you guys show me some pictures of how you do it? Thanks.

Jake

[Go2Tex]

The guy I learned from told me this was the way to put the neck wrap and horn cap on. But I am always open to new suggestions and ideas. The folks that I have lined up to build some saddles for are definetly going to test them out so I want to learn the best way to put 'em together. Could you guys show me some pictures of how you do it? Thanks.

Jake

Jake, I tried it with kinda the same idea. I took the top piece with the wings and made it the bottom piece but I didn't cut the cap off. Of course, it is then reversed to show the grain side. The pattern will have to be worked out with scrap for the particular horn, but you will get the idea after you try it. The wings are cut and skived where they overlap at the back so they lay as smooth as possble, (that's the tough part). But, you leave enough leather to fold out flat all around, including the overlap area in back. There will be a very slight line where it overlaps but that gets covered with your horn wrap later. It's no worse than the line where the horn wings overlap, so I think it's not a problem. I guess you could try to butt together in the back rather than overlap, but you'd still have a line there. Anyhow, from there, you do a full round filler and then your full round cap and stitch 'em all three together. I don't have a pic of the bottom piece pattern with wings to show ya, but I do have one of the finished join.

[Echo4V]

I don't know if this is the reason for the donut or not but it seems to me that having that donut, instead of a full filler peice, would tend to take out the slight dome that some horns have in them. If the top of the horn is not domed at all then it would seem that the full filler peice would work out better. I do really like the look of the cap you have with stitching all the way around. I don't understand why this way would be more likely to get yanked off the horn than any other way if the throat peice, which the top is stitched to all the way around, is anchored as well as the the throat peice on another style of horn covering.

David

[steve mason]

In my opinion the middle filler of the horn cap should not be a donut, the filler should cover the whole horn cap and be nailed down, if it is not the filler will twist for sure if any roping is done or even ponying a horse etc. This is an essential part of doing any horn wrap either cap and wrap or wing style.

[Echo4V]

Steve, good point I hadn't thought of that. Couldn't the donut still be used though if it were cut with a little smaller hole then the inside edges skived a little and nailed around the hole? Would that provide enough strenth to keep it from twisting?

David

[bruce johnson]

I guess I am missing the point of the whole doughnut thing here. In my mind that filler has to be nailed down (or machine screwed through an aluminum bare horn) to keep everything from twisting too. Most of the leather horn repairs I see are from either not using a filler or thinking glue will hold it. These are on mostly the cutters and barrel racers. On the ropers they will twist even with a filler if you yank one hard enough.

For a cleaner look I usually soak my fillers, and then when the moisture is right, use a hand sledge or shaping hammer on my anvil to really compress them. I think the boot guys do this for heels and call it hammerjacking. I started doing this about a year and a half ago or so. It firms and compresses the leather and I don't have such a clunky edge. For the barrel and cutters I will sand those edges even a little thinner to make a nice pretty edge. By sanding the edges or thinning the edges of my fillers, I can help to maintain a slight dome on my caps too.

[Echo4V]

Bruce- I was actually looking at it from the idea that a flat topped horn was the goal of the donut instead of a solid filler. That's why I was wondering about a smaller hole and thinner edges to screw/nail through into the horn.

David

[greg gomersall]

If you have a dome before you put your filler on you should still have a dome when your done and if you have a flat horn it should be flat when you are done so why not order the tree the way you want it. With or without dome. Greg

[Newfman]

Part of me says to shut up but here goes anyways. . .

If you peen only the center of the filler down (Similar to Bruces "hammerjacking" method), would this not help significantly reduce the dome look, at the same time provide an outer perimeter to nail down through that still has a fuller thickness (more tear/twist resistant) rim? So, instead of making an actual doughnut, use a peening hammer to compress the "hole area" instead of completely removing the material, yet be sure to leave room for a proper nail hold in the thicker part. Of course, i could be missing the point entirely.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Newfman

[Bob]

I fail to see why you would put a doughnut filler in, except to make a domed horn more flat, other wise, whats the point? It would be much stronger with a complete filler that can be nailed though out.

It just seems kinda pointless to make a large hole in the filler, and a complete waste of time, except to remove the dome that was put in the horn to begin with. Unless of course, I'm missing the whole point. I do however, like the idea of putting the wings on the bottom piece instead of the top one....

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

If you have a dome before you put your filler on you should still have a dome when your done and if you have a flat horn it should be flat when you are done so why not order the tree the way you want it. With or without dome. Greg

Greg's right! Order it the way you want it. Bottom line is that the filler should be tacked down by either the machine screw method or the tack method. I have repaired 100's of saddle horns , a lot of them belonging to people that do not even use their saddles to rope, or dally, or pony. They simply grab hold a lot, or set them down on the front of the fork and the front of the horn, (which is the correct way), and they come loose. In many cases the saddles are only a couple of years old. This (skipping the tacks in the filler) is a short cut that is used by manufacturers of "store bought" saddles. A large number of those saddles I have repaired were Circle Y saddles by the way. So many that I actually called them and tried to get them to let me set up as a repair center up here in Michigan. They weren't concerned about the need for repairs. They said "if they want them fixed they can send them back.

Happy Trails!

Bondo Bob

[mike59]

Greg's right! Order it the way you want it. Bottom line is that the filler should be tacked down by either the machine screw method or the tack method. I have repaired 100's of saddle horns , a lot of them belonging to people that do not even use their saddles to rope, or dally, or pony. They simply grab hold a lot, or set them down on the front of the fork and the front of the horn, (which is the correct way), and they come loose. In many cases the saddles are only a couple of years old. This (skipping the tacks in the filler) is a short cut that is used by manufacturers of "store bought" saddles. A large number of those saddles I have repaired were Circle Y saddles by the way. So many that I actually called them and tried to get them to let me set up as a repair center up here in Michigan. They weren't concerned about the need for repairs. They said "if they want them fixed they can send them back.

Happy Trails!

Bondo Bob

Unfortunately, it seems that the rule of thumb has become, " To Hell with Quality,...Get the money and run"! I suppose I shouldn't complain, It helps my bottom line doing repairs. Just seems like a shame.

[spur2009]

Reckon I have to go along in most part with Bruce. IThe majority of the saddles that I make are for working hands that do some heavy roping,

both dally and hard and fast. I believe the filller must be a solid piece and nailed down to prevent twisting when saddle is roped from.