dgkfit Report post Posted February 6, 2016 hello, CAN A 441 CLONE (EITHER A COBRA CLASS 4 OR COWBOY 4500) SEW THIN FABRIC WITH ITS FABRIC/BLANKET FEET SET WITH #346 THREAD? the fabric is about 1mm / 1/16" thin per layer, and would sew in a minimum of 2 layers. IF SO, WHAT ADJUSTMENTS MUST BE MADE TO DO IT RIGHT? thank you dale Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uwe Report post Posted February 6, 2016 Can you? Maybe. Should You? Probably not. A 441 class machine is not the right tool for the task. Even if it were, trying to sew thin fabric with #346 thread may be an exercise in futility. It probably won't look right because the fabric is too thin to bury/hide the thick knot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TinkerTailor Report post Posted February 6, 2016 1/16 is basically 4oz. It is not the best machine for the job but it should do 2+ layers of that fabric. I have done a test with 4-6 oz of fabric and 207 and it sewed fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Art Report post Posted February 6, 2016 Ok, I really have sewn a dollar bill with a 441 clone at a show. The trick is don't change anything. Take a setup to sew 2 pieces of 8 oz together, and do it. The thread looks like a log chain, and you can see the knots on BOTH sides, but hey, it did it. This is not possible once the customer gets it home and over-tensions the bobbin and has to compensate with the top tensioned like the e string on a guitar. Now this doesn't mean you can make it sew with 69 thread and corresponding needles without a little (or a lot) of adjustment. The current crop of 441 machines are really quite good (I speak of dealers and machines we refer to often on leatherworker.net). Art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgkfit Report post Posted February 6, 2016 Hello, thank you all for your replies. i sell exercise gear online and it puts extreme stress on their seams. hence the need for thick thread. the FABRIC IS 1680D BALLISTIC NYLON. it is quite tuff, about the thickness of blue jeans denim. it has been sewn with #277 thread top and bobbin with an adler 205 and a cobra class 4. i want to eliminate one of the double stitch lines and go up to #346 thread, and buy my own machine to do it. so, the fabric is not the thinnest. it is quite tuff. since this has been done with #277, can't i do it with #346? thanks dale Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Art Report post Posted February 6, 2016 Sure, you will want to use a 25 or 26 round point needle. Art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgkfit Report post Posted February 6, 2016 Hello again, I checked and the 1680D ballistic nylon is at least I PUSHED THE WRONG BUTTON BEFORE I COULD PUT IN THE WEIGHT ABOVE: THE 1680D BALLISTIC NYLON IS AT LEAST 10 OZ / SQUARE YARD. THANKS DK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uwe Report post Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) When People talk about ounce weight (e.g. 5 oz.) here, they really are referring to the thickness of the leather. The weight of leather and fabric is not a direct comparison. 5oz leather weight/thickness equals about 2mm of thickness. I had some nylon strap material laying around that is roughly the same thickness are your fabric at about 1.1 mm, which I wouldn't classify as "thin fabric". I sewed it on my Adler 205-370 both single and double layer, using a size 27/250Nm sharp point needle and #415 bonded polyester thread. It worked out okay, actually. That seam is unlikely to let go anytime soon. I'm going to revert to my usual "Just try it!" approach to giving advice. Here's what it looks like. Double layer in the left side of the picture, single layer towards the right. Top View: Bottom View: Edited February 6, 2016 by Uwe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted February 6, 2016 Choose the largest thread that allows you to hide the knots between the layers. It will fall between #277 and 346 for two layers of this ballistic nylon. Actually, 346 is pushing it a bit. Your machine has to be perfectly adjusted to consistently place the knots between the layers. You can calculate the strength per stitch by consulting this needle and thread chart. I suspect that using #277 thread, rated at 44 pounds tensile strength, will do the trick. Just space out the stitches to at least 5 per inch, or about 3/16" spacing on outer edges with less stress, and 4 per inch when sewing across hardware and buckles, or high stress areas. This will avoid weakening those seams due to the proximity of the holes. FYI: Black bonded thread is always stiffer than lighter colors. White thread is typically the softest. Softer thread forms and positions the lockstitch knots more easily and much tighter for a given tension combination. This is why many professional saddlers and holster shops use barbed needle and awl machines and run soft but thick linen thread though a liquid wax pot. Once the wax dries those stitches aren't going anywhere, even if one breaks. Just look at a quality leather shoe or boot sole that is sewn with 6 to 8 cord waxed linen thread if you want proof. Unfortunately, modern closed eye needle machines cannot effectively use waxed linen thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
George3 Report post Posted February 6, 2016 I make chaps out of 1000 and 1200 cordura I used to sew it on a 205-370, it did okay down to 138 22/140 needle, even with 277 on top and 138 bottom, I think I used a 25 needle. The material wanted to bunch up with the lighter material, but did a passable job I recently bought a Consew 206 and never looked back. Bottom line is, yes. You can. My wife is a graphic design teacher and her favorite quote is " just because you can, doesn't mean you should" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) I make chaps out of 1000 and 1200 cordura I used to sew it on a 205-370, it did okay down to 138 22/140 needle, even with 277 on top and 138 bottom, I think I used a 25 needle. The material wanted to bunch up with the lighter material, but did a passable job I recently bought a Consew 206 and never looked back. Bottom line is, yes. You can. My wife is a graphic design teacher and her favorite quote is " just because you can, doesn't mean you should" A proper sewing operation has more that one machine. I recommend a flat bed upholstery grade walking foot machine, like the Consew 206RB-5, for medium thickness material and thread (up to 3/8" with #138 thread). Then add a heavy harness stitcher for items exceeding 3/8 inch thickness, or requiring thicker thread (#207 - #415) and finally, a flat bed tailoring machine (e.g.; Singer 31-15, 96k40) if you need to sew thin cloth garments or satin linings together. Each type of machine covers a specific range of work for which it is best suited This is a good basic starting setup. Add other special purpose machines as the need arises. Edited February 6, 2016 by Wizcrafts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darren Brosowski Report post Posted February 8, 2016 What you want to do is possible but pointless. A lot of time is spent talking about the breaking strain of thread but the issue that is ignored is that in most cases the thread will rip through the material you are working with. I would suggest using a high quality bonded polyester. It has a slightly lower breaking strain but a smoother, almost lubricated finish with a higher wear resistance. To test the right thread size sew 6 inches at the maximum stitch length and leave two feet of free thread. Securely tie one end around something solid, put on a pair of heavy leather gloves, then pull hard on the other end. If the thread rips through the material then it is too thick so drop a size and try again. The thread should fail just before the material does. It is easier to repair stitching than replace the ripped material. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
