Wondering About The Fit

[JLSleather]

1 minute ago, JimTimber said:

And they're just easy to make and sell quick to make a buck.

Well, yeah..that IS teh short version.

When I make a "pattern", what I'm actually making is the STITCH ALLOWANCE, which can then be used to make a multitude of holster styles from that one "design".

[JimTimber]

Pancakes have been around a long time, and I've had no love for them for as long as I've been into guns.  Has nothing to do with your patterns JLS, it's the "one size fit's nobody" nature of the design that I can't stand.

If you're making the holster out of leather, not plastic; take the time to do something nice, something that fits the gun well and is pleasant to use and look at (if it's going to be outside the waistband). That's just my perspective.  Same reason I hate kydex - looks like butthole no matter how good you form it, and it doesn't function all that great either.   I can tolerate a lot of ugly if something works well.

[JLSleather]

12 minutes ago, JimTimber said:

the "one size fit's nobody" nature of the design

Yeah, with ya. I've always said..

We do not make holsters in 'medium' or 'large'. If it fits many guns, then it fits none (a pail will hold your pistol, but doesn't FIT it).

One fella showed up, said he wanted a holster that would fit gunA AND gunB... so I handed him a plastic walmart bag that was laying there.

 

[Josh Ashman]

7 minutes ago, JimTimber said:

Pancakes have been around a long time, and I've had no love for them for as long as I've been into guns.  Has nothing to do with your patterns JLS, it's the "one size fit's nobody" nature of the design that I can't stand.

If you're making the holster out of leather, not plastic; take the time to do something nice, something that fits the gun well and is pleasant to use and look at (if it's going to be outside the waistband). That's just my perspective.  Same reason I hate kydex - looks like butthole no matter how good you form it, and it doesn't function all that great either.   I can tolerate a lot of ugly if something works well.

Hey Jim, good to know that my holsters are "crappy", easy to make, and that they don't work well. Let's see some of your work pard. I'm curious to see what a nice, functional holster looks like.

JLS, as I noted earlier, technically I agree with most if not all of what you've said. However, I don't have any of the problems you have noted that will be caused by 50/50 pancakes in the holsters I've made and sold. Of course, since Jim was helpful enough to point out that they are all crappy and don't work well maybe I just don't know the difference. 

 

 

[JimTimber]

You can do whatever you want, not everyone's going to like it or agree with you.  Like I already said, I don't know why anyone buys a traditional pancake holster, but they sure are popular from a sellers perspective because they're easy to make.

 My holsters?  Well, since I've only owned a sewing machine capable of leather for just under a month - I have to get partially naked and pull this one out.

 

The pic angle is deceptive, that's actually vertical with a fully loaded (12+1 230gr) magazine in it and held in by nothing but leather.  Been using it daily for 6+ years.  My design, my leather, my glue, my vacuum forming, but I had two different guys sew it for me.

Got any 6 year old pancakes to show off?  Can they hold a gun without a belt to tension them?

[JimTimber]

This one doesn't get as much use.  #2 ever made.  Again, someone else's stitching but I did all the rest.

[Josh Ashman]

Jim,

I don't have any pictures of 6 year old pancake holsters being held upside down. As I noted earlier, after several years of use I have about retired a 50/50 pancake I made myself. I think it had about 3 years of use when it went out of daily rotation. Last I checked it would still hold a loaded 1911 upside down, but just barely. I may check again when I get home out of curiosity. 

Having a holster hold a pistol upside down isn't the "end all be all" of whether or not it's functional, at least it isn't for me.  I would say that function is king, however, form also comes into play in my opinion. 

All of the problems that have been stated about 50/50 pancake holsters haven't been an issue for me in holsters I've made for personal use or ones I've built to sell. I'm a hobby maker although I've been at it for many years, so I've built more than a few of these types of holsters. Most of them are owned by people I know personally, family and friends. So far no complaints. 

Speaking personally, if it were about making a quick buck I'd skimp on my edges. That would save me a bunch more time than building them flat backed, or flatter backed. 

As you noted, not everybody will agree or like what someone else does and they certainly don't need too. 

All the best, Josh 

 

[JimTimber]

The reason I've never retired this one is because it's still comfy as all get out and does the job.  It's got very little, if any, sentimental value to me but it still works.   Even now as I'm getting my sewing up to speed, I don't have an imminent need to make another one to replace it, although I probably will just because I've never been happy with the "drunk" shoe repair guy's stitching on my hemmed edge.

First ever hemmed edge I did (not trimmed after sewing at all):

It's just a personal distaste for the 50/50 pancakes, nothing to do with anyone's quality of work.  Lord knows there's a lot of big name makers producing the things, but then Glock sells a TON of guns and I can't stand those blocky things either (partly because their made in such a way to maximize ease of production and lack any semblance of grace in their lines).    We all value different things differently.

[longun45]

I have seen this problem solved on youtube and the Gentleman's name is Sam Andrews from Florida.  In building the Pancake, which he calls a saddle style holster.  The outside leather is longer than the inside layer, not a lot only maybe 1 - 1 1/2 inches or so.  This gives the desired curve and the sight channel is boned in.  He also uses a tensioner in the holster so the retention can be dialed in.  His videos have taught me lots about leatherworking.  Sam has been working in leather for about 40 years and does excellent work.  I have been working to figure out how much extra to add and have the patterns made but not built one yet.  After the next show I may get to.

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by longun45

[Josh Ashman]

Here it is new on Oct 24th 2013,

and here it is as of last night,

and upside down,

I'm plenty happy with my results. 

All the best, Josh

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Josh Ashman

[usmc0341]

Crappy as always Josh....

[Josh Ashman]

6 minutes ago, usmc0341 said:

Crappy as always Josh....

Semper Fi!

[JLSleather]

4 hours ago, longun45 said:

this problem solved on youtube and the Gentleman's name is Sam Andrews

Sam did a great job on that video -- it's the ONLY one I recommend to people wanting to make holsters.  Dialing it back just a tad --- Sam seems like a friendly, knowledgeable fella, but he didn't invent this

Josh, looks like you got some pretty good mileage.

[JimTimber]

Longgun45, that's not a 50/50 pancake.  Sam makes the proper version of a two-layer OWB holster, he just calls it a pancake.  Since my rationale isn't good enough, maybe someone should ask Sam why he doesn't make 50/50's? 

[usmc0341]

2 minutes ago, JimTimber said:

Longgun45, that's not a 50/50 pancake.  Sam makes the proper version of a two-layer OWB holster, he just calls it a pancake.  Since my rationale isn't good enough, maybe someone should ask Sam why he doesn't make 50/50's? 

And while you have him on the phone ask why he needs to add a tension screw.  Look at Milt Sparks, Del Fatti, Alessi, any of the big maker's holsters and you will see they are 50/50 pancakes.  The wheel has already been invented, I'm not sure why this is such a debate.  Each design has it's own pro's and con's, as for me I have made all of my pancake holsters the 50/50 way and have yet to have an issue.  

[JLSleather]

1 minute ago, usmc0341 said:

Look at Milt Sparks, Del Fatti, Alessi, any of the big maker's holsters

I don't count "numbers" as equals skill or value.  I see thousands of junk projects sold every day.  The pet rock sold like 6 MILLION copies, and then there was an "imitation" pet rock... and then a couple years later they were re-introduced and advertised as the "original" pet rock.  Millions sold, but it was a rock in a box. With "air holes" for the rock.  That people were ignorant enough to buy them (often because the neighbor did, so I should too)... did not make them any "better"

I doubt that anyone here makes anywhere near as much money as Spongebob Squarepants.  So, is he smarter than us?  Maybe more talented?   I make a joke of it, but the idea is quite real.  

Really, it's good sometimes to differentiate between facts and "marketing" spiel.  I read somewhere once that Bianchi "invented" some 30,000 holsters.  But a quick glance showed that one "design" was a simple fold-over taco thing, sewn up the seam.  Then another was teh same holster, but they added a hammer strap.  And a third "design" was teh same holster with a trigger strap... etc..  Nothing against Bianchi or anyone who works with/for them -- but I'm not maybe as susceptible to advertising as some others.  Adding or mentioning somebody's name to make something seem more legitimate just doesnt' work on me - means nothing.  

I've made a couple holsters over the years.  And out of a bazillion (well, quite a few to some  ) I've had this "issue" exactly twice.  Each time, they asked for that '50/50' thing, and when they got binding I made them a replacement which was nearly flat in the back, which solved the issue completely.

I agree that it doesn't need to be a 'debate'.  Each his own.  

 

[Josh Ashman]

Del Fatti, Alessi, Sparks? Clearly all makers of crappy holsters looking to cut corners.

 

[chiefjason]

I'm an absolute, dedicated, fanatical flat back guy.  Period.  I love them.  Some of that is fit, some is the simplification of the pattern process.  I have a gun mold coming for a holster.  It's a CZ75d PCR.  The guy has already paid.  In my mind the clock starts when I get the mold.  But we all know it started when I received the funds.  I could spend hours tweaking a pattern "just for this gun".  But instead I'll get a pattern that is close, usually a touch larger than necessary.  Cut the pattern out.  Mold the front.  Glue it to the back.  Then get to work finishing it up.  I have had guys bring a gun in that I had never worked with and sent them out the door with it 2 hours later while I kept the glued roughed out holster to finish.  For a small time, part time guy without a lot of extra tinker time it's a life saver for me.  I wear one and love it.  I built them and other folks love them.  I've got a kind of cult following around here based on flat back OWB holsters.  And I'll tell you for sure, I can make one too tight if I'm not careful.  And that is before you put it on.  But they seem to break in a lot faster than other holsters.  

Tutorial I did if anyone cares.  Better explanation here. 

I mold in a sight channel for mine.  But only 3/4.  Plenty of room for the gun to be pulled up and start rotating it forward to draw.  At that point any sight drag is on the top edge of the holster if you really rake it forward instead of up.  

A buddy just had me replaces a belt slide that I did for him, also flat backed.  When he bought it he told me not to be offended but he would hit me up in about 3 years for another one.  5 years later he hits me up.  Not because he needed one, plenty of life left in his words.  But because it was time to get a new one in his mind.  

As to waist size, if they bring it up in the process I'll sometimes point them to trailing loop or avenger style holsters.  They seem to work better than pancakes for really thin folks.  They just take up less real estate.  

[JLSleather]

  That's funny!

I have always made holsters based on what I like (barring specific requests).  Never give much thought to what somebody else is doing - -don't really care.

But, so much went on about some "big names", that I checked.  And the funny part?  At least one of the "names" people seem to like to throw around to 'justify' simple holsters... DelFatty actually states (on that site) " might find that the wings bind the weapon because they are pulled in to the waist so abruptly. "

That's worth one more of these

[Josh Ashman]

3 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

  That's funny!

I have always made holsters based on what I like (barring specific requests).  Never give much thought to what somebody else is doing - -don't really care.

But, so much went on about some "big names", that I checked.  And the funny part?  At least one of the "names" people seem to like to throw around to 'justify' simple holsters... DelFatty actually states (on that site) " might find that the wings bind the weapon because they are pulled in to the waist so abruptly. "

That's worth one more of these

This whole thread is so damn dumb I can't believe I'm still sucked in.

But here I am...

JLS, I bolded and underlined "might". Nobody is "justifying" a thing by noting that 50/50 type holsters work well for a lot of people. That's pretty obvious to anyone with a brain. Your free patterns and advice are appreciated by a bunch of starting out leather workers and I applaud you for your efforts to be helpful. I also recognize that you a fine leather worker and make quality gear. That said, much like Sam, you haven't invented any of this and in my opinion you're wrong every now and then. I don't use falling down laughing emoticons to point out where I think you're wrong as that seems like a real jerk thing to do.

ChiefJason, I'm happy that you're doing so well with the flat backed holsters. Some of us are just as happy and proud of our holsters that aren't flat backed. 

Jim Timber, what the hell does a hem do on a holster?

[JLSleather]

33 minutes ago, Josh Ashman said:

JLS, ...much like Sam, you haven't invented any of this

Agreed   People were making quality leather long before I was born, and likely will continue after I'm gone.

Just so I've said it, when I referred to "name dropping", I wasn't referring to you.  But, I'm not intending any offense or taking any.  Nothing on this site worth all that anyway.

I do / did try to be of some use to the 'new guy', but honestly I don't gain or lose anything by doing it, or feel the obligation to do it.

Edited March 9, 2017 by JLSleather

[JimTimber]

What does a hem do? 

It doubles up the edge to make a stiffer part without adding that extra weight to the whole panel.  My holster doesn't need a metal insert to stay open when drawn, but it's not going to remain open if I lay on it while the gun is out (something I'm not concerned with).  I designed this to be comfortable, and it's proven to be a great holster. 
 

I was paying by the seam to have that made, so I made it in a way that I could achieve the desired goal without multiples of stitches and forming operations.  That hem was wet formed around the gun under vacuum, then when dried the back was glued and later sewn by another contractor. Doesn't everyone have a vacuum pump?

[Josh Ashman]

Jim,

I was just being a smart ass. The picture you took was hard to see exactly what was going on, but I had gathered the general intent. Not sure why you'd be concerned with weight on leather when you're packing a double stack 45, but as you mentioned earlier, we all value different things.

Good for you for making a unique design that you like and that has worked well for you. It'd be easy for me to give a critique on your actual leather working skills based on what I could make out in the pictures, but I don't see a reason to. You like what you built, so that's awesome. 

With a little practice you can hand sew a holster in about 30 minutes. It takes 2 needles, an awl and some thread. If you suck at hand sewing you can still do it in under an hour. 

I don't have a vacuum pump.

Have a good evening folks, 

Josh

 

[JimTimber]

I guess I value my hours more than you do.  I paid $12 for all the sewing on that rig.  First holster ever.  Think about that and then shove your smug attitude up your rear.  What you can't seem to grasp is that I never mentioned you, your work, anything - hell, I didn't even know you existed before you started coming after me because I have an unfavorable opinion about the design attributes about something you seem to take great pride in making.

You can build a Yugo with Swiss precision and you're still left with a Yugo.

[chiefjason]

8 hours ago, Josh Ashman said:

ChiefJason, I'm happy that you're doing so well with the flat backed holsters. Some of us are just as happy and proud of our holsters that aren't flat backed. 

 

You should be.  There are guys out there that want them and someone has to get them a nice rig.  Like JLS, and most on here probably, I started out making what I liked and mostly still do.  And I've drug a lot of people down that same path with me.  

And I'm not claiming to invent anything, that's for sure.  Well, I may have come close a time or two.  lol  I do have an odd looking single clip IWB holster that I can't recall seeing anything similar.  And then there is that S&W 500 Beast.  Anywhoo.  I got the idea for the flat back holsters from a conversation with Red Nichols on DC.  After a couple replies back and forth I started tinkering with it.  Once I got the idea right in my head and on the leather I ran with it.  

IMO, holsters are like shoes.  Everyone wants something different, or for a different reason.  I do hybrid and leather but HATE full kydex.  Just can't stomach the idea of making one anymore, and I actually wear one daily that I made a long time ago.  It fits a purpose for me so I use it.  But I hate making them.  I don't bash the material or usefulness, it's just personal.  I have a list of makers in my head, when a customer asks for something I don't or won't do I send them to someone else.  If they want what I'm making, great.  If they don't, best to point them to someone that I consider good at doing what they want.  Sent a returning customer a list of makers a few weeks ago when he wanted a full kydex IWB rig.  I could lay out my case for why 1/8" difference in total outside dimension really will not make a difference, or help him find what he's looking for.  My guess is he'll be back when he wants another OWB leather holster so it's all good.