hand sewing thick leather

[Martyn]

28 minutes ago, Birdman said:

But learning to stitch properly from the outset is easier than correcting "bad habits" at a later stage.

Whether or not you see something as a bad habit, depends on lens of your experience.  I dont make saddles so I dont need to see stitching chisels as a bad habit, I have the luxury of viewing them as just another tool.

[snubbyfan]

My method for stitching thick leather.

 

[Martyn]

30 minutes ago, snubbyfan said:

My method for stitching thick leather.

Works for me.

[Tugadude]

I use both methods described above.  Lately, most with a chisel.  I have no problem with holes not closing up, period.  I always tap my stitching down with a smooth-faced hammer and the thread completely fills the holes.  Big fan of chisels here and Nigel Armitage, one of the best saddle stitchers I've seen, is too.  I'm not going to argue.

[Pabs]

wow...awesome info and insight gents!  it seems I have lots to learn!  I've been watching the videos all night.  loving it!

thanks again for the feedback

 

[Pabs]

16 hours ago, Birdman said:

I can never foresee the time when I would use your described method of working on any piece of MY stitching work that would require secure safe stitching.

Or any of my stitching for that matter!

If you are hammering holes through the leather by punching, how does the leather close and grip? How do you consistently and continually tension your stitching as you work?

Yes, pre punching holes may increase  the stitching rate, but to the detriment of the quality of the stitching. Hand stitching is about the quality, not the quantity.

In my line , a person could be riding 600kg of horse doing 35mph,  AND out of control, and hoping like hell that the person who has done the stitching knows his job.  

Whacking holes through leather  before stitching is definitly not the way to do it.

Like I said, keep punching holes for lacing jobs.

 

could you please elaborate on why one method would produce a stronger stitch than another?  pre punching all the holes vs punching them one at a time

the only thing I can think of is the ease of pushing the needle..if the hole was just punched the opening would be larger for a little bit... but long term I don't see how it could make a difference.   but as we all know, I'm a rookie and here to learn!

[Tugadude]

I wouldn't worry too much about it.  The strength of the connection depends upon a number of factors including space between holes (or slits), size of hole, strength of thread, angle of stitch, etc. 

Add to that how close to the edge the row of stitching is and the tensile strength of the leather itself.  

What I believe you have here is several passionate, determined folk, who have opinions on the matter.  We share those opinions and you can either agree, disagree or wait and try yourself and then decide.  To those who don't use stitching irons or chisels, how can they say they are no good?  I do both methods and will say that they definitely have their place. I can put out a good-looking stitch either way but the chisel is faster (if that matters) and it is easier For Me to keep the backside looking straight.

I bring up Nigel Armitage because most of us would agree he is a craftsman.  He appears to have been traditionally trained and is expert, to me, in his work.  

He was very reticent to embrace the stitching irons.  But he didn't pass judgment, he actually tried them and found them decent and helpful in some situations.  I encourage you to watch the videos Martyn attached.

I understand those who don't like the notion of pounding holes through leather.  They believe it is inelegant.  Perhaps like doing a painting with a can of spray paint.  But what about an air brush?

Bottom line, different strokes for different folks.  

BTW, the holes made by stitching irons DO close up some if you let the leather sit.  And as I said previously, it has never been a problem for me.  

Learn both methods and I think you'll be better for it.  Least then you can say you tried and didn't reject one or the other without experience.

 

[Martyn]

2 hours ago, Pabs said:

could you please elaborate on why one method would produce a stronger stitch than another?  pre punching all the holes vs punching them one at a time

He intimated the answer in his debate with me. When you make a hole with an awl, the leather closes back up fairly quickly. When you make the holes one at a time, the suggestion is that you can adjust the tension as you are going along in response to this, in order to keep the stitching tight. The old saddlers were taught not to use an iron to pre-punch holes. But a traditional iron like this one...

makes flat marks on the leather and has tapered prongs. If you hammer this type of iron through the leather, the holes get bigger the deeper you go. It probably will give you tensioning issues.

However with chisels like these...

 

...the prongs are manufactured to replicate the cross-section of a diamond awl. They are much slimmer, longer and have straight sides. The holes dont get bigger as you go through and they close up just like they do with an awl. In fact when you pre-make the holes, you often have to pass a needle (or an awl) through the pre-made holes to open them up enough to sew. These kinds of chisels though, are alien to the methods of a traditional saddler and some balk just at the idea of them. But then they balk at the idea of sewing machines too.

...and just to send the traditional saddlers totally apoplectic, some people even use a drill to make their holes and are happy with the results. I dont like that method, because it removes leather and definitely stops the holes closing and it makes round holes, which has a tendancy to make your stitches lay flat instead of zig-zag. But each to their own.

It's all a question of perspective. Your view of the world is coloured by the lens of your experience.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Martyn

[Birdman]

Pabs--I trust you have your reply?

The only points I would expand on is the tensioning of the thread and the treatment of the awls.

The latter first. I would not let anyone use my awls (or any other tools for that matter) that pushed them down through the leather on to the bench/block of softwood/ wad of leather etc. Apart from the damage to the awl, unless the leather is quite thin, it must be difficult to get the same 'strike' with each (hand) action, unlike the use of clams or a pony. And your initial Q was for 2 layers of thick leather?

With regard to the thread tension, the traditional methods that awls clams etc with any method of stitching (double hand, back etc) allow the hands to tighten the thread as  you work.

With experience ---and it doesn't take long--- the stitcher gets a feel for just how tight he can draw the stitch up.  The worker feels the leather with his awl as he works and can adjust his pull accordingly, thus eliminating slack stitches and 'dead men'.

Hides are not uniform throughout their area. Some bits are softer/thinner/more greased/have a resinous structure and so on.

The awl quickly detects the slight differences along a piece of leather. The awl not only allows for the needles to go through your thread, it becomes a sensitive probe---part of your senses and 'gut feel'---the art and craft of the job.

 

With double hand stitching, the tightening process not only tightens the stitch that is actually being made, but that of the stitch previous and the ones before that. Try it and watch carefully as you tighten, you will see the earlier stitches tighten slightly.

The slice of the awl quickly allows the leather to return and grip the thread---in seconds.

If using a stitching chisel to punch holes, this does not happen so easily, the holes may have already closed if the chisel work has been light and require re opening, or may need some seating after stitching in order for the hole to close. ( see earlier posts)

 

Martyn quite correctly pointed out that not all leather work is saddlery. But I respectfully suggest that using the traditional methods and tools correctly, the resulting  stitching can accommodate all areas of leather work. But by using other less professional methods, the same is not true.

ie, I would be quite happy to ride a horse wearing the bridle and girths I had made using traditional methods, whereas, I would not be so keen to do the same if  the kit was made by whacking holes and 'fiddle stitching' that does not allow for correct tensions etc !

hink on it! 

Think horse travelling at speed, and all that is between you and eternity is  two  3"rows of  stitching at 8/inch! You would darned well want them soooo right!

I wouldn't be overly bothered about  traditionally correct  stitching if the leather item was something more decorative than functional.

But as a novice, you asked about stitching two pieces of thick leather, and I felt I gave you the best answer in view of this.

In summary, it's easier to learn the job properly first off, then adjust your methods according to need, and also to pick projects that will help you progressively learn the right skills to the craft.

You can then make your own decisions regarding what is suitable methods/materials/tools for stitching for any particular job.

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Birdman
typos

[Martyn]

11 minutes ago, Birdman said:

If using a stitching chisel to punch holes, this does not happen so easily,

One question, if you've never used one, how do you know? Is the difference you suggest real or imagined? If it's real, how significant is it? OK, that's more than one question. I don't know how you can adopt such a strong position on this, having never used them though? Dont you think that's a fair point?