hand sewing thick leather

[Pabs]

16 hours ago, Birdman said:

I can never foresee the time when I would use your described method of working on any piece of MY stitching work that would require secure safe stitching.

Or any of my stitching for that matter!

If you are hammering holes through the leather by punching, how does the leather close and grip? How do you consistently and continually tension your stitching as you work?

Yes, pre punching holes may increase  the stitching rate, but to the detriment of the quality of the stitching. Hand stitching is about the quality, not the quantity.

In my line , a person could be riding 600kg of horse doing 35mph,  AND out of control, and hoping like hell that the person who has done the stitching knows his job.  

Whacking holes through leather  before stitching is definitly not the way to do it.

Like I said, keep punching holes for lacing jobs.

 

could you please elaborate on why one method would produce a stronger stitch than another?  pre punching all the holes vs punching them one at a time

the only thing I can think of is the ease of pushing the needle..if the hole was just punched the opening would be larger for a little bit... but long term I don't see how it could make a difference.   but as we all know, I'm a rookie and here to learn!

[Tugadude]

I wouldn't worry too much about it.  The strength of the connection depends upon a number of factors including space between holes (or slits), size of hole, strength of thread, angle of stitch, etc. 

Add to that how close to the edge the row of stitching is and the tensile strength of the leather itself.  

What I believe you have here is several passionate, determined folk, who have opinions on the matter.  We share those opinions and you can either agree, disagree or wait and try yourself and then decide.  To those who don't use stitching irons or chisels, how can they say they are no good?  I do both methods and will say that they definitely have their place. I can put out a good-looking stitch either way but the chisel is faster (if that matters) and it is easier For Me to keep the backside looking straight.

I bring up Nigel Armitage because most of us would agree he is a craftsman.  He appears to have been traditionally trained and is expert, to me, in his work.  

He was very reticent to embrace the stitching irons.  But he didn't pass judgment, he actually tried them and found them decent and helpful in some situations.  I encourage you to watch the videos Martyn attached.

I understand those who don't like the notion of pounding holes through leather.  They believe it is inelegant.  Perhaps like doing a painting with a can of spray paint.  But what about an air brush?

Bottom line, different strokes for different folks.  

BTW, the holes made by stitching irons DO close up some if you let the leather sit.  And as I said previously, it has never been a problem for me.  

Learn both methods and I think you'll be better for it.  Least then you can say you tried and didn't reject one or the other without experience.

 

[Martyn]

2 hours ago, Pabs said:

could you please elaborate on why one method would produce a stronger stitch than another?  pre punching all the holes vs punching them one at a time

He intimated the answer in his debate with me. When you make a hole with an awl, the leather closes back up fairly quickly. When you make the holes one at a time, the suggestion is that you can adjust the tension as you are going along in response to this, in order to keep the stitching tight. The old saddlers were taught not to use an iron to pre-punch holes. But a traditional iron like this one...

makes flat marks on the leather and has tapered prongs. If you hammer this type of iron through the leather, the holes get bigger the deeper you go. It probably will give you tensioning issues.

However with chisels like these...

 

...the prongs are manufactured to replicate the cross-section of a diamond awl. They are much slimmer, longer and have straight sides. The holes dont get bigger as you go through and they close up just like they do with an awl. In fact when you pre-make the holes, you often have to pass a needle (or an awl) through the pre-made holes to open them up enough to sew. These kinds of chisels though, are alien to the methods of a traditional saddler and some balk just at the idea of them. But then they balk at the idea of sewing machines too.

...and just to send the traditional saddlers totally apoplectic, some people even use a drill to make their holes and are happy with the results. I dont like that method, because it removes leather and definitely stops the holes closing and it makes round holes, which has a tendancy to make your stitches lay flat instead of zig-zag. But each to their own.

It's all a question of perspective. Your view of the world is coloured by the lens of your experience.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Martyn

[Birdman]

Pabs--I trust you have your reply?

The only points I would expand on is the tensioning of the thread and the treatment of the awls.

The latter first. I would not let anyone use my awls (or any other tools for that matter) that pushed them down through the leather on to the bench/block of softwood/ wad of leather etc. Apart from the damage to the awl, unless the leather is quite thin, it must be difficult to get the same 'strike' with each (hand) action, unlike the use of clams or a pony. And your initial Q was for 2 layers of thick leather?

With regard to the thread tension, the traditional methods that awls clams etc with any method of stitching (double hand, back etc) allow the hands to tighten the thread as  you work.

With experience ---and it doesn't take long--- the stitcher gets a feel for just how tight he can draw the stitch up.  The worker feels the leather with his awl as he works and can adjust his pull accordingly, thus eliminating slack stitches and 'dead men'.

Hides are not uniform throughout their area. Some bits are softer/thinner/more greased/have a resinous structure and so on.

The awl quickly detects the slight differences along a piece of leather. The awl not only allows for the needles to go through your thread, it becomes a sensitive probe---part of your senses and 'gut feel'---the art and craft of the job.

 

With double hand stitching, the tightening process not only tightens the stitch that is actually being made, but that of the stitch previous and the ones before that. Try it and watch carefully as you tighten, you will see the earlier stitches tighten slightly.

The slice of the awl quickly allows the leather to return and grip the thread---in seconds.

If using a stitching chisel to punch holes, this does not happen so easily, the holes may have already closed if the chisel work has been light and require re opening, or may need some seating after stitching in order for the hole to close. ( see earlier posts)

 

Martyn quite correctly pointed out that not all leather work is saddlery. But I respectfully suggest that using the traditional methods and tools correctly, the resulting  stitching can accommodate all areas of leather work. But by using other less professional methods, the same is not true.

ie, I would be quite happy to ride a horse wearing the bridle and girths I had made using traditional methods, whereas, I would not be so keen to do the same if  the kit was made by whacking holes and 'fiddle stitching' that does not allow for correct tensions etc !

hink on it! 

Think horse travelling at speed, and all that is between you and eternity is  two  3"rows of  stitching at 8/inch! You would darned well want them soooo right!

I wouldn't be overly bothered about  traditionally correct  stitching if the leather item was something more decorative than functional.

But as a novice, you asked about stitching two pieces of thick leather, and I felt I gave you the best answer in view of this.

In summary, it's easier to learn the job properly first off, then adjust your methods according to need, and also to pick projects that will help you progressively learn the right skills to the craft.

You can then make your own decisions regarding what is suitable methods/materials/tools for stitching for any particular job.

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Birdman
typos

[Martyn]

11 minutes ago, Birdman said:

If using a stitching chisel to punch holes, this does not happen so easily,

One question, if you've never used one, how do you know? Is the difference you suggest real or imagined? If it's real, how significant is it? OK, that's more than one question. I don't know how you can adopt such a strong position on this, having never used them though? Dont you think that's a fair point?

[Birdman]

Yes, that is a fair point. No, I have never used them. But I have had their use and effect demonstrated to me when I was training.

Conclusion of all was that they were unsuitable for saddlery use. If used lightly as a pricking iron, the marks were unsatisfactory---poor shape and spacing, if used as a stitching chisel, they still had the poor shape and spacing and left the leather butchered. The Master had made his point. (pun intended)

I wouldn't use stitching chisels, I know how to do the job better,  and I would fear the ghosts of ancient saddlers visiting me in the night with burning awls and flocking irons!

I still think it is better to first learn to do stitching well using the correct methods and tools and then adapt as suitable for an individual project. Because once you can do it properly, its easier and faster than other methods that may only be suitable for some projects. For instance, a saddler is not going to abandon the use of pricking irons, awls, clams and double handed stitching and use a stitching chisel and poke the awl down through the leather to a piece of softwood on the bench just because he is now making a slip case for spectacles ---a job that doesn't need the same level of skill and security as a bridle !

But be my guest, you make something 'your way' where the stitching counts, like a bridle/standing martingale/stirrup leathers/girths/girth straps and then use them yourself..........And if the proverbial hits the fan, you will have the answers as to how significant the differences are. 

 

 

[jcuk]

Hi Birdman i trained in the traditional method using pricking irons so needle and awl for me.

So we know the need for the the stitch to be strong and what could go wrong if it is not I work 

in Horse Racing you need to be able to trust your tack and the person who has repaired it or made it

in the first place.

Having said that this for a lot of people who do leather work its just a hobby there work my not involve work 

where a lot of strength in the stitch may not be needed, but do agree with start off the right way first bad habits

should not come into play.

By the way where did you train i made a belt a lot like yours when i did my training.

 

hope this helps JCUK

[Pabs]

interesting debate my post has generated 

I truly enjoy reading the different points of view.

I do some wood working as a hobby and I can appreciate the "do it the old fashion way " style of learning.. but at the same time in certain cases you will opt for a quick fix just to get something done...depends on what you are making I guess.

in my case there will not be any heavy forces applied...however, I do want to make some swings for my kids... I want to set up some ropes,swings, etc in the basement for them to play on when it's too crappy out...in that situation I would want to have the strongest possible result

and I must say the level of decency you guys have shown in your "disagreement" is to be commended. it's refreshing, much too often these days people just trash each other online and discourse turns to muck and serves no purpose.  in this case  I'm actually learning...so thanks!  

[Martyn]

37 minutes ago, Pabs said:

in my case there will not be any heavy forces applied...however, I do want to make some swings for my kids... I want to set up some ropes,swings, etc in the basement for them to play on when it's too crappy out...in that situation I would want to have the strongest possible result

I'd trust my kids on a swing stitched using pricking irons to make the holes, without a second thought. I'm utterly unconvinced that it makes a blind bit of difference. While I'm not that great at traditional awl method, I can do it and as others have said, I can not discern any difference whatsoever. The stitching chisels shown are made from heat treated and hardened tool steel (unlike traditional irons) and are designed and made to be used exactly as described. I'm not convinced even under mission critical applications, that it makes a jot of difference. For example, many western saddles and tack are made up on a machine with a lock stitch. The lock stitch is mechanically a weaker stitch than a saddle stitch, but you don't hear of cowboys having issues with their saddles falling off because of it.

Sorry to those who disagree, no offence intended, but I think the suggestion that chisels somehow weaken the stitch, is absolute nonsense. Anecdotal opinion isn't enough, I'm afraid I'd need some evidence to convince me otherwise.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Martyn

[Tugadude]

I suppose we've all made our points.  Now it is up to the original poster to decide.  Either way, the videos Martyn attached are a must watch.  Even if you choose one method over the other, you will learn about both.  Good luck and feel free to post examples of your work as you progress.  We'll look forward to helping if we can.

[Birdman]

13 hours ago, Martyn said:

 

Sorry to those who disagree, no offence intended, but I think the suggestion that chisels somehow weaken the stitch, is absolute nonsense. Anecdotal opinion isn't enough, I'm afraid I'd need some evidence to convince me otherwise.

 

[jcuk]

Hi all I will have to agree with you Pabs about the decency of the debate.

Good to see there is still hope insight.

 

All the best jcuk 

[Birdman]

7 hours ago, Birdman said:

 

Sorry about the missing post above. I do not know what happened----and it took me ages of 2 finger typing as well!

Not only that, the software does not let me use the "quote" facility either! 

I will try and cobble it together again.

"Sorry to those who disagree, no offence intended, but I think the suggestion that chisels somehow weaken the stitch, is absolute nonsense. Anecdotal opinion isn't enough, I'm afraid I'd need some evidence to convince me otherwise. "

OK. So lets try some circumstantial evidence.

Man working with leather has been going on since the stone age. (OK I was NOT there)

Particularly post the Industrial Revolution, I do not believe that the use of a  Stitching Chisel would not have been tried. It is after all a very small step from giving a pricking iron a gentle tap with a rawhide mallet to whacking it through the hide with a hammer! I would suggest that it was tried for reasons of economy (time costs money in a competitive industry), and found to be lacking with long term use, and subsequently  lost customers. 

Reference was made to machine stitching. I will continue with the analogy, it is another cost cutter and the actions of the machine needle have a similar result on the leather ie it punches a hole as opposed the the awls slicing action.

As a saddler I have had many machine made items brought to me for repair. Common problems are stitching failure with head-collars and saddles.

When machine stitching fails, it runs like a ladder in a ladies stocking. As a result, far more replacement (hand) stitching is required to make good than if the item was hand stitched. Worn hand stitching does not 'run', and the area of insult remains relatively small to the insult. It is also impossible to use a machine to match the new stitches with the old stitch holes.....and holes they are.

I suggest that holes made by a machine needle are following a similar path to the use of a stitching chisel? The machine cannot detect the finer differences in a piece of leather like the experienced hand and eye can. It ploughs on regardless. Similar to punching holes and then using an awl in a vertical stance on to a piece of softwood on a bench to open the hole to allow  'lazy way' double hand stitching?

This brings me on to replacing rubber grips on reins.

If the rubbers have been machine stitched, you can generally only replace the rubber using machine stitching once. The punching needle does so much damage that the rein becomes unsafe---the holes join up! And they are holes! Years after the original work, on replacement of the rubbers, you can hold the naked rein up to the light and see stars! Rubber grip reins that have been hand stitched can be recovered about three or four times, Machine stitched reins can be recovering by hand stitching once, and if you are lucky maybe twice before it becomes unsafe to do so.

I suggest that there is little difference between the effect of a machine needle and a stitching chisel?

Western tack has been mentioned. Something that I have little experience of except for basic repairs. Western tack evolved because the cowboy needed equipment that could be repaired and made good miles away from the town. So it was made as simple as possible. It has subsequently evolved into a wonderful art form---far away from its original purpose. 

I had a Western saddle brought to me for repair.. It was just a basic working saddle with some embossing on the cantle. The flaps had been from two layers of thin leather, machine stitched around the edge, to produce a flap of the correct substance.  ---  Cheaper than a single piece of the appropriate thickness?

The stitching had failed where the riders leg rubbed the flap edge, and then run. As a result, I had to re stitch most of the edge of the flap. And yes the stitch holes were evident and the leather somewhat pappy around the edge----but in fairness, this may have been due to the leather quality.

But the point is....initial money saving  resulted in higher later costs.

So Martyn, in summary, nothing is new in a craft that has been around for centuries. Economics  and competition will always drive cost cutting. Proven methods will always out last the the new fangled methods if those methods are shown to be inferior in the long term. So if you are making a quality product by hand, and especially if you adding value by some cracking arty stuff, its a shame to spoil the job for the sake of a ha'p'orth of tar. Because your customer will not be back if the stitching fails on his £80  ornate belt or guitar strap after a couple of years.

Inbuilt design obsolescence should not be part of the quality built in to hand made leatherwork. 

 

[Martyn]

Thanks for the detailed response. I want to respond to a few points, but cant work out how to split quotes on this sdoftware, so I'm going to borrow your trick of highlighting your comments in red.

OK. So lets try some circumstantial evidence.

I would agree with the circumstantial part, but whether it constitutes evidence is debatable I think. I'm going to try and respond to some of your points with actual evidence, that I hope you will take under consideration.

Particularly post the Industrial Revolution, I do not believe that the use of a  Stitching Chisel would not have been tried. It is after all a very small step from giving a pricking iron a gentle tap with a rawhide mallet to whacking it through the hide with a hammer! I would suggest that it was tried for reasons of economy (time costs money in a competitive industry), and found to be lacking with long term use, and subsequently  lost customers. 

Pricking irons are not stitching chisels. Lacing chisels have been around for a while, but stitching chisels are fairly recent. I doubt your master would have ever seen or heard of them, certainly not the industrial revolution. I agree that whacking a pricking iron produces unacceptable results - I think this is what you thought I was advising initially - but I agree, not good as you'll see below.

I really do think that your lack of hands on experience with stitching chisels is colouring your opinion, because what I read in your assumptions of them, is a million miles from my experience and I'll try and show that below too.

I suggest that there is little difference between the effect of a machine needle and a stitching chisel?

I disagree. There are two issues here, firstly a chisel does not produce a lock stitch like a machine. This is a major part of your criticism of machine stitch failure. Chisels make holes for saddle stitching, exactly the same stitch you make when using an awl. Using a chisel doesn't turn a saddle (double running) stitch into a lock stitch. There is no debate on this point.

The next issue was one of the nuances of tensioning by hand, versus by machine. Even if you could empirically prove that hand tensioning provides stronger stitching than machine stitching, you'd still be a million miles away from showing that holes made by a chisel over an awl, affect the tensioning of a hand stitch in any meaningful way.

it is another cost cutter and the actions of the machine needle have a similar result on the leather ie it punches a hole as opposed the the awls slicing action.

Again, you are drawing a similarity between the hole made by a chisel and a machine that doesn't exist and refusing to accept the similarities which are many. I think if you actually had hands on time with a chisel, you may not change a lifelong held opinion, but the strength of it might be moderated a little.

I did a little experiment just to illustrate the point. Close up pictures of the holes made by iron and awl, versus chisel and I think they are quite illustrative.

In the left corner, we have a George Barnsley #5 pricking iron, it's been around the block but it's still serviceable. next to it, a CS Osborne awl haft loaded with an Osborne #43 awl blade. Now the blade is brand new, it's not as sharp as I'd like and that does cause issues. I've just given it a quick strop, but it does need a proper work over on a stone. That does affect the results, no question.

In the right corner, is a Seiwa Japanese 5mm/5SPI stitching chisel. It's relatively new and comes sharp out of the box.

The victim is 2 layers of 7/8 oz veg tan, glued flesh to flesh.

The top row of holes have been made with the iron & awl, the bottom row with the chisel...

Front...

 

Back...

 

 

As you can see, the holes made by the iron & awl are pretty bad. I promise you, I havent butchered it just for effect, it's a combination of my poor awl skill, an awl that is less than ideally sharp, stabbing through 16 oz of veg and inherent difficulty with using a hand awl.

But rather than looking at the poor holes made by the awl, look at the very clean and absolutely awesome holes made by the chisel! :D

It's hardly butchered is it? They are slits, just like an awl, they close up, just like an awl (you'll have to take my word for that until such a time that you get to try one yourself) and look at the exit wounds? The chisel does less damage to the leather because you are punching through into a surface, rather than into thin air as you do with an awl. Chisels are precision tools. They are designed to be used like this, they are profiled to mimick an awl and are made from heat treated and hardened too steel, as appropriate for a tool designed to be driven though something and into a hard surface. You dont have to bludgeon them through the leather, a couple of light taps with a 13 oz maul will suffice. Now I'm not suggesting the chisel is superior (though at my skill level, it clearly is), what I am saying is they are nothing like the abhorrent nightmare that the strength of your opinion would suggest.

Here is a picture of what happens when you try and drive an iron through by whacking it - this is what I think you thought I was advocating on the previous page...

Now that IS butchered. There is no 'back' picture, because the prongs of the iron were not long enough to go all the way through. This is bad, no argument from me. This is what they would have objected to in the industrial revolution, this is what your master would have objected to and therefore by proxy, this is what you are objecting to. But this is NOT a chisel and it's NOT what a chisel does.

That is evidence.

I rest my case.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Martyn

[Birdman]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply, and taking the time to produce the pictures.

Regarding my reference ( and your reply) to machine stitching and its comparison with stitching chisels, you have missed my point.

I was comparing the effect of a machine needle punching a hole through the leather as being similar to a stitching chisel in cause and effect. It leaves big holes, and big holes cause weakness and fail to grip thread. Other threads on this forum make a point of advising not stitching across a strap holding a buckle because it weakens the leather......I wonder why?

With regard to hand stitching/machine stitching and tensioning, you have missed the point.

The next issue was one of the nuances of tensioning by hand, versus by machine. Even if you could empirically prove that hand tensioning provides stronger stitching than machine stitching, you'd still be a million miles away from showing that holes made by a chisel over an awl, affect the tensioning of a hand stitch in any meaningful way.

If the holes are butchered and to big, when stitching, the leather does not close over the thread and grip it, so to achieve a tight stitch the worker pulls tighter, and runs the risk of a 'dead man' or a does not pull tight enough and gives a loose stitch.

A machine  is set to a tension, it does not adjust that tension as it progresses along the run, it does not feel the changes in the leather. ( As I pointed out earlier.) A pair of skilled hands do.This is part of the skill acquired by learning to stitch properly in the first place--and is pertinent to my first post to the OP.

With reference to the my part regarding the possible  invention of stitching chisels in history, again you have missed the point. No a stitching chisel is not a pricking iron. The idea would almost certainly have been born as a result of a pricking iron being whacked, and then the iron modified in the manner you suggest.

It is a crude tool to short cut work. 

The pictures you have shown, in my opinion, show butchered leather in all cases. Starting with the first pic, first row...the pricking iron. 

The marks would indicate that the iron is not fit for purpose and/or your use of the awl leaves a lot to be desired. The row of marks are not level, and each individual mark is different from the others and the spacing is uneven---although the later may be the effect of camera positioning? The picture of the back of the iron and awl reinforces the argument.

I suggest the there is indentation around each mark either from the iron or from the awl. You do not need to push the awl  for the full length to take the thread. If the leather is  very thick, you may have to use more of the awl. But that is where the correct training kicks in. Here ya go, a trick I learnt when training, ---- for free! (it cost me!) Punch a small piece of panel hide and thread it on the awl up to the handle---it will stop that indenting/ bruising. 

The work done by the chisel. 

The pictures of the chisel work show indentations of the leather--a good pricking iron will just leave a prick to guide the worker---and it will be evenly spaced, of uniform size and shape. The chisel marks are an improvement on your pricking iron! But they are still lacking slightly in uniformity and very slightly in spacing (see marks 1,2,3 compared to rest). They are also VERY long marks for 5 spi. You would need rope to fill them!

Just a thought, I wonder why good  pricking irons are several times more expensive than stitching chisels..........? It couldn't be the craftsmanship could it? I know if when I have bought them, I was unhappy with the mark, it would be re ground for free... Try that  one with a cheaper imported tool! 

My tutor (former Giddens senior saddler) objected to the general quality of the mark and overall effect on the leather and its effect on the resulting stitching. He had a similar view of pricking wheels! I did find one in a boot sale that he did approve of, and he let me use it on some fancy stitching on the panel of a race exercise saddle..... it really did make a good evenly spaced mark---he even offered to buy the tool!

Show me a stitching chisel that can produce holes for stitches using 3/40 or 3/25 at 10/12/15 spi and the leather is not full of 'dead men' or even torn off......

I accept that a chisel may have its uses with thinner leathers where stitch security is not  important, but looking at the pictures you have submitted, nothing like that would leave my workshop.

My original post still stands, it is better for a beginner to learn to stitch properly from the outset, using the correct tools to enable him to learn properly. 

They can then make their own decisions as to whether a pricking iron or a stitching chisel is suitable.

 

 

[Martyn]

2 hours ago, Birdman said:

My original post still stands, it is better for a beginner to learn to stitch properly from the outset, using the correct tools to enable him to learn properly.

Your assumption is that everyone here is going to put 20 years into a trade. I would suggest that most, are like me, either part timers or hobby leatherworker. I dont sell anything, I make things for my own use and my own pleasure. Although I've been playing at it for several years, sometimes I go six months or even a year without touching a piece of leather. Realistically, I doubt I will ever posses the skill you suggest with a freehand awl. For me and many like me, a stitching chisel is a superb alternative. I can produce work that is a far higher standard. The above is a test piece and I wasn't trying to show off my skills, I was trying to show off the holes. Your criticism of my alignment skills was neither asked for, warranted, nor relevant. See my stitching on the previous page - with respect, it's straighter than yours! I doubt I'll ever be able to produce stitching that straight with an awl and there are many like me. Chisels have a place, You may not like the idea of them, but your way isn't the only way. Something I suggest you consider before you next reprimand someone, your next victim may not be so gracious.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Martyn

[Birdman]

I do not consider you a victim.

I have been polite in all my postings. I have patiently explained my reasoning's, and listened to yours, explaining why I did not agree. I have treated you you as someone who is keen to produce good work but may not have had the advantages that I had in learning the job properly. That was evident from the advice you offered the OP. That advice would/could produce a poor stitching line, strength of stitch and damage to his tools. Awls are not made to be pushed through leather into a piece of wood.

I have not referred to your alignment skills. The tools have been clearly placed on the marked line at either end of the tool(s).

I DID refer to the marks left by the tool. And that IS highly relevant. It is the tool that is out of alignment, that is if the marks shown were made in one action using that tool. It has quite clearly got bent and damaged prongs. As I said, it is not fit for purpose.

And if the tool is in good order, why are the resulting marks/holes all over the place? 

The piece of stitching I have shown, a belt, the first item I made looks fairly straight stitching to me, especially as a first attempt. Bear in mind this belt is 48" long, has two rows of stitching both sides, at  8 and 10 spi using different colours through 3 to 3.5mm bridle leather. It was made in October 1988 (typo in earlier post) and has a reasonable amount of use since. So even with the belt now having a curve, bends and knocks from use, that stitching still looks pretty straight to me.

My way is not the only way, ( as you say)  but it is arguably a better way, it has stood the test of time through a whole range of leather products.  And it is definitely a better way two join two pieces of thick leather than that which you advised----  which was the question asked by the OP.

Another minor point----you mention sharpening awls. Do you know, unless I have dropped an awl on the floor and bent it, I have never ever had to sharpen an awl. My first awl has shortened by 1/3 and worn so thin that it is now unusable for bridle leather. But its a dainty little tool for the 1mm stuff!

 

 

[cjmt]

Hello all,

Please can I suggest, in the spirit of keeping the thread useful to all that

a) Birdman is somewhat less brutal in your choice of language! Im sure the intent is to educate not offend, but somewhat more gentleness may help!

2) Martyn, peraps you could accept the point about chisels - if you disagree you clearly arent going to persuade him so quit whilst your ahead!

I was also trained by an ex Gideons Master Saddler and I would agree with Birdman that a chisel isnt the right tool and isnt used by the top end of the trade. Its an intriguing idea, but all of the blades are so much heavier than an awl you, by definition, are making holes that are too big. The answer from the saddlery trade to work that doesnt have a back or front, ie untidy stitching is unacceptable on either side of the work, is portmanteau irons. They are used more for leathergoods than saddlery in my experience, in saddlery the emphasis is skill and there being a defined back side of work piece, leathergoods often doesnt have that luxury. It should be pointed out Hermes for eg use bog standard boring Blanchard irons like the rest of us, they would certainly adopt chisels if it improved the work.

Its a fair point to say a chisel might give you better looking work now, but its cosmetic - better to learn right and either buy a set of regular and portmanteau irons or accept the back of your work wont be perfect, IMO anyway

Let peace, harmony and agreeing to differ reign!

Charlie

[Martyn]

16 minutes ago, cjmt said:

I was also trained by an ex Gideons Master Saddler and I would agree with Birdman...

Charlie, I would expect nothing less. I've never suggested that saddlers should adopt chisels as the new gold standard. I agree, they are not good enough for that. However, there are very many professional leatherworkers who do not hand sew, or if they do hand sew, they use all sorts of interesting techniques for punching, like putting an awl blade in a drill press - or even using a drill. While a chisel might not be the gold standard, they produce a superior hole and product to a sewing machine and just about everything else. Are they as good as a hand awl? No. But they are better than everything else. If you can live with those horrible sewing machines being part of the industry, then you should be able to live with chisels. To chastise someone for suggesting the appropriate use of a good tool just because the tunnel vision of their professional pedantry doesn't like the idea of them, is not only wrong, it's rude.

[cjmt]

1 hour ago, Martyn said:

Charlie, I would expect nothing less. I've never suggested that saddlers should adopt chisels as the new gold standard. I agree, they are not good enough for that. However, there are very many professional leatherworkers who do not hand sew, or if they do hand sew, they use all sorts of interesting techniques for punching, like putting an awl blade in a drill press - or even using a drill. While a chisel might not be the gold standard, they produce a superior hole and product to a sewing machine and just about everything else. Are they as good as a hand awl? No. But they are better than everything else. If you can live with those horrible sewing machines being part of the industry, then you should be able to live with chisels. To chastise someone for suggesting the appropriate use of a good tool just because the tunnel vision of their professional pedantry doesn't like the idea of them, is not only wrong, it's rude.

I cant live with the horrible sewing machines - my company doesnt own one! Every sinle piece we produce is totally hand sewn.

If Im being accused of rudeness I don't think I am being. Im expressing an opinion I have earned a right to have by thousands of hours of handstitching with no ad hominem or ad fabrico attacks. I dont mind at all what tools you use - use a butter knife for me if you find it works,  but I do agree with Birdman that this is an arena where people come to learn and its right that the correct way of doing it is given visibility or people will go away with the idea the wrong way of doing it is the right way, and thats bad for the trade. If all you have is a stitching chisel of course use it, but if you/one/the person reading this in the future has no tools at all and wants to know what to buy or wants to improve their work pricking irons and an awl are the correct and best way of doing it and produce the best work, not just for saddlery but also leather goods (which is actually what I do for a living nowadays). My experience is no established companies making top end work use them, or some of the other techniques you mention, (though Im sure somone somewhere does just to disprove me). By that I dont mean people learning their skills or one man bands, regardless wether they sell their products etc etc, I mean high end established professional firms or craftspeople who have devoted their lives to this. My area is leathergoods now not saddlery so Im not just talking about saddlery co's.

A drill press with an awl blade mounted correctly, some guides to keep everything perfectly set up, an infinitely sharp awl, some means of the awl not getting blunt and some means of supporting the back of the work so it isnt distorted as the awl passes through would be an interesting device and better than a chisel because the blade would do less damage to the leather. It would also need to space the stitch marks evenly. More or less thats a sewing machine with an awl not needle in a sewing machine, which I know some people do use. You'd still need to use an awl to open the hole and guide the left needle, so really might as well just use a pricking iron.

Anyway - those are my views, A chisel, any means you have of making a hole in a bit of leather will allow you to saddle stitch and if thats what you have go for it, but on the whole those who do it for a living use a pricking iron and awl because the results are the best. 

Enough on the subject from me..

Charlie

 

[Martyn]

51 minutes ago, cjmt said:

Anyway - those are my views, A chisel, any means you have of making a hole in a bit of leather will allow you to saddle stitch and if thats what you have go for it, but on the whole those who do it for a living use a pricking iron and awl because the results are the best.

I agree with most of what you say Charlie, but this is not student saddlers dot net. Unless I'm mistaken, it's a forum for all, from someone who just wants to make a bit of something for their own use, to professionals and everything in between. To suggest that someone who just wants to know a good way of sticking 2 bits of leather together, needs to spend hundreds of hours learning to freehand with an awl, is just absurd.

On the subject of rudeness, I wasn't referring to you, but I would add that being rude isn't a right or a privilege, no matter who you are or what you've accomplished.

[cjmt]

4 hours ago, Martyn said:

I agree with most of what you say Charlie, but this is not student saddlers dot net. Unless I'm mistaken, it's a forum for all, from someone who just wants to make a bit of something for their own use, to professionals and everything in between. To suggest that someone who just wants to know a good way of sticking 2 bits of leather together, needs to spend hundreds of hours learning to freehand with an awl, is just absurd.

On the subject of rudeness, I wasn't referring to you, but I would add that being rude isn't a right or a privilege, no matter who you are or what you've accomplished.

It absolutely is a forum for all, and should be. We should promote the best standard of work we can though and knowing the best techniques has to be a good thing. Perhaps the detail in this thread is overflow from the guy enquring about making belts earlier in the week, but I do genuinley think the best way of learning is pricking iron + awl, in some sort of clam. Ive seen people starting to run businesses with fundamentally incorrect self limiting techniques fail because they dont have the time or inclination to relearn, and that seems a shame when they could have succeeded given the right start. Anything to get the job done has to be the right answer if you have no tools and are starting off, but if you start of with a chisel, or a drill press or whatever, maybe its like EasyStart, you get addicted and dont learn the right way. Saddlers are never exposed to these methods, they just learn to be tidy as they practice and personally I think thats the right way. Its not rocket since, a few hours will get you to the stage of being moderately tidy. Saddlers certainly dont have a God given right to dictate or ride rough shod over anyone, but it is called saddle stitch and it is fundamental to how we keep a roof over our heads so we are bound to have views, and if they are expressed politely by someone with a lot of experience then really we have earned a right to them. I think best to say we will have to agree to differ in the great iron vs chisel debate, but thats fine and is both our collective rights so to do!

Fully agree no-one has the right to rudeness or we ruin a nice forum. That was the point of my original post. We can agree to differ - both sides can make their point without attacking a person or their work

[Johanna]

If anyone wants to discuss hand sewing, chisels vs. awls vs. Dremel tools vs hand carved bone needles with a mini scrimshaw portrait of your dog, start a new thread. The "gold standard" of sewing in 10K+ years of leatherwork is with the awl you never set down, and 12 spi. (12 stitches an inch) In 30 plus years of leatherworking I have seen very few that were really good at it. Ann Stohlman and Verlane Desgrange come to mind, probably because they were also great teachers. And that's what the forum is all about, folks. We can always learn from each other. Whether you punch, prick, stab, or chew your sewing holes, I'm sure someone has approached you in wonder that your hands are so strong you can just push the needle through the leather. If I had a dollar for every time I explained you had to make holes first I would fly to someplace warm.

~J