hand sewing thick leather

[Martyn]

2 hours ago, Birdman said:

My original post still stands, it is better for a beginner to learn to stitch properly from the outset, using the correct tools to enable him to learn properly.

Your assumption is that everyone here is going to put 20 years into a trade. I would suggest that most, are like me, either part timers or hobby leatherworker. I dont sell anything, I make things for my own use and my own pleasure. Although I've been playing at it for several years, sometimes I go six months or even a year without touching a piece of leather. Realistically, I doubt I will ever posses the skill you suggest with a freehand awl. For me and many like me, a stitching chisel is a superb alternative. I can produce work that is a far higher standard. The above is a test piece and I wasn't trying to show off my skills, I was trying to show off the holes. Your criticism of my alignment skills was neither asked for, warranted, nor relevant. See my stitching on the previous page - with respect, it's straighter than yours! I doubt I'll ever be able to produce stitching that straight with an awl and there are many like me. Chisels have a place, You may not like the idea of them, but your way isn't the only way. Something I suggest you consider before you next reprimand someone, your next victim may not be so gracious.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Martyn

[Birdman]

I do not consider you a victim.

I have been polite in all my postings. I have patiently explained my reasoning's, and listened to yours, explaining why I did not agree. I have treated you you as someone who is keen to produce good work but may not have had the advantages that I had in learning the job properly. That was evident from the advice you offered the OP. That advice would/could produce a poor stitching line, strength of stitch and damage to his tools. Awls are not made to be pushed through leather into a piece of wood.

I have not referred to your alignment skills. The tools have been clearly placed on the marked line at either end of the tool(s).

I DID refer to the marks left by the tool. And that IS highly relevant. It is the tool that is out of alignment, that is if the marks shown were made in one action using that tool. It has quite clearly got bent and damaged prongs. As I said, it is not fit for purpose.

And if the tool is in good order, why are the resulting marks/holes all over the place? 

The piece of stitching I have shown, a belt, the first item I made looks fairly straight stitching to me, especially as a first attempt. Bear in mind this belt is 48" long, has two rows of stitching both sides, at  8 and 10 spi using different colours through 3 to 3.5mm bridle leather. It was made in October 1988 (typo in earlier post) and has a reasonable amount of use since. So even with the belt now having a curve, bends and knocks from use, that stitching still looks pretty straight to me.

My way is not the only way, ( as you say)  but it is arguably a better way, it has stood the test of time through a whole range of leather products.  And it is definitely a better way two join two pieces of thick leather than that which you advised----  which was the question asked by the OP.

Another minor point----you mention sharpening awls. Do you know, unless I have dropped an awl on the floor and bent it, I have never ever had to sharpen an awl. My first awl has shortened by 1/3 and worn so thin that it is now unusable for bridle leather. But its a dainty little tool for the 1mm stuff!

 

 

[cjmt]

Hello all,

Please can I suggest, in the spirit of keeping the thread useful to all that

a) Birdman is somewhat less brutal in your choice of language! Im sure the intent is to educate not offend, but somewhat more gentleness may help!

2) Martyn, peraps you could accept the point about chisels - if you disagree you clearly arent going to persuade him so quit whilst your ahead!

I was also trained by an ex Gideons Master Saddler and I would agree with Birdman that a chisel isnt the right tool and isnt used by the top end of the trade. Its an intriguing idea, but all of the blades are so much heavier than an awl you, by definition, are making holes that are too big. The answer from the saddlery trade to work that doesnt have a back or front, ie untidy stitching is unacceptable on either side of the work, is portmanteau irons. They are used more for leathergoods than saddlery in my experience, in saddlery the emphasis is skill and there being a defined back side of work piece, leathergoods often doesnt have that luxury. It should be pointed out Hermes for eg use bog standard boring Blanchard irons like the rest of us, they would certainly adopt chisels if it improved the work.

Its a fair point to say a chisel might give you better looking work now, but its cosmetic - better to learn right and either buy a set of regular and portmanteau irons or accept the back of your work wont be perfect, IMO anyway

Let peace, harmony and agreeing to differ reign!

Charlie

[Martyn]

16 minutes ago, cjmt said:

I was also trained by an ex Gideons Master Saddler and I would agree with Birdman...

Charlie, I would expect nothing less. I've never suggested that saddlers should adopt chisels as the new gold standard. I agree, they are not good enough for that. However, there are very many professional leatherworkers who do not hand sew, or if they do hand sew, they use all sorts of interesting techniques for punching, like putting an awl blade in a drill press - or even using a drill. While a chisel might not be the gold standard, they produce a superior hole and product to a sewing machine and just about everything else. Are they as good as a hand awl? No. But they are better than everything else. If you can live with those horrible sewing machines being part of the industry, then you should be able to live with chisels. To chastise someone for suggesting the appropriate use of a good tool just because the tunnel vision of their professional pedantry doesn't like the idea of them, is not only wrong, it's rude.

[cjmt]

1 hour ago, Martyn said:

Charlie, I would expect nothing less. I've never suggested that saddlers should adopt chisels as the new gold standard. I agree, they are not good enough for that. However, there are very many professional leatherworkers who do not hand sew, or if they do hand sew, they use all sorts of interesting techniques for punching, like putting an awl blade in a drill press - or even using a drill. While a chisel might not be the gold standard, they produce a superior hole and product to a sewing machine and just about everything else. Are they as good as a hand awl? No. But they are better than everything else. If you can live with those horrible sewing machines being part of the industry, then you should be able to live with chisels. To chastise someone for suggesting the appropriate use of a good tool just because the tunnel vision of their professional pedantry doesn't like the idea of them, is not only wrong, it's rude.

I cant live with the horrible sewing machines - my company doesnt own one! Every sinle piece we produce is totally hand sewn.

If Im being accused of rudeness I don't think I am being. Im expressing an opinion I have earned a right to have by thousands of hours of handstitching with no ad hominem or ad fabrico attacks. I dont mind at all what tools you use - use a butter knife for me if you find it works,  but I do agree with Birdman that this is an arena where people come to learn and its right that the correct way of doing it is given visibility or people will go away with the idea the wrong way of doing it is the right way, and thats bad for the trade. If all you have is a stitching chisel of course use it, but if you/one/the person reading this in the future has no tools at all and wants to know what to buy or wants to improve their work pricking irons and an awl are the correct and best way of doing it and produce the best work, not just for saddlery but also leather goods (which is actually what I do for a living nowadays). My experience is no established companies making top end work use them, or some of the other techniques you mention, (though Im sure somone somewhere does just to disprove me). By that I dont mean people learning their skills or one man bands, regardless wether they sell their products etc etc, I mean high end established professional firms or craftspeople who have devoted their lives to this. My area is leathergoods now not saddlery so Im not just talking about saddlery co's.

A drill press with an awl blade mounted correctly, some guides to keep everything perfectly set up, an infinitely sharp awl, some means of the awl not getting blunt and some means of supporting the back of the work so it isnt distorted as the awl passes through would be an interesting device and better than a chisel because the blade would do less damage to the leather. It would also need to space the stitch marks evenly. More or less thats a sewing machine with an awl not needle in a sewing machine, which I know some people do use. You'd still need to use an awl to open the hole and guide the left needle, so really might as well just use a pricking iron.

Anyway - those are my views, A chisel, any means you have of making a hole in a bit of leather will allow you to saddle stitch and if thats what you have go for it, but on the whole those who do it for a living use a pricking iron and awl because the results are the best. 

Enough on the subject from me..

Charlie

 

[Martyn]

51 minutes ago, cjmt said:

Anyway - those are my views, A chisel, any means you have of making a hole in a bit of leather will allow you to saddle stitch and if thats what you have go for it, but on the whole those who do it for a living use a pricking iron and awl because the results are the best.

I agree with most of what you say Charlie, but this is not student saddlers dot net. Unless I'm mistaken, it's a forum for all, from someone who just wants to make a bit of something for their own use, to professionals and everything in between. To suggest that someone who just wants to know a good way of sticking 2 bits of leather together, needs to spend hundreds of hours learning to freehand with an awl, is just absurd.

On the subject of rudeness, I wasn't referring to you, but I would add that being rude isn't a right or a privilege, no matter who you are or what you've accomplished.

[cjmt]

4 hours ago, Martyn said:

I agree with most of what you say Charlie, but this is not student saddlers dot net. Unless I'm mistaken, it's a forum for all, from someone who just wants to make a bit of something for their own use, to professionals and everything in between. To suggest that someone who just wants to know a good way of sticking 2 bits of leather together, needs to spend hundreds of hours learning to freehand with an awl, is just absurd.

On the subject of rudeness, I wasn't referring to you, but I would add that being rude isn't a right or a privilege, no matter who you are or what you've accomplished.

It absolutely is a forum for all, and should be. We should promote the best standard of work we can though and knowing the best techniques has to be a good thing. Perhaps the detail in this thread is overflow from the guy enquring about making belts earlier in the week, but I do genuinley think the best way of learning is pricking iron + awl, in some sort of clam. Ive seen people starting to run businesses with fundamentally incorrect self limiting techniques fail because they dont have the time or inclination to relearn, and that seems a shame when they could have succeeded given the right start. Anything to get the job done has to be the right answer if you have no tools and are starting off, but if you start of with a chisel, or a drill press or whatever, maybe its like EasyStart, you get addicted and dont learn the right way. Saddlers are never exposed to these methods, they just learn to be tidy as they practice and personally I think thats the right way. Its not rocket since, a few hours will get you to the stage of being moderately tidy. Saddlers certainly dont have a God given right to dictate or ride rough shod over anyone, but it is called saddle stitch and it is fundamental to how we keep a roof over our heads so we are bound to have views, and if they are expressed politely by someone with a lot of experience then really we have earned a right to them. I think best to say we will have to agree to differ in the great iron vs chisel debate, but thats fine and is both our collective rights so to do!

Fully agree no-one has the right to rudeness or we ruin a nice forum. That was the point of my original post. We can agree to differ - both sides can make their point without attacking a person or their work

[Johanna]

If anyone wants to discuss hand sewing, chisels vs. awls vs. Dremel tools vs hand carved bone needles with a mini scrimshaw portrait of your dog, start a new thread. The "gold standard" of sewing in 10K+ years of leatherwork is with the awl you never set down, and 12 spi. (12 stitches an inch) In 30 plus years of leatherworking I have seen very few that were really good at it. Ann Stohlman and Verlane Desgrange come to mind, probably because they were also great teachers. And that's what the forum is all about, folks. We can always learn from each other. Whether you punch, prick, stab, or chew your sewing holes, I'm sure someone has approached you in wonder that your hands are so strong you can just push the needle through the leather. If I had a dollar for every time I explained you had to make holes first I would fly to someplace warm.

~J