the back of my saddle is wearing the hair down on my horse...

[bruce johnson]

JW,

Maybe one well driven nail and one bent and pounded down under the cantle maybe. The only ones more fun to take apart are some of the Tenn saddles with bent and driven ring shanks driven up at random places from the bottom under the skirts into the bars.

Mort,

I'd sure agree it is hard to tell a lot from a picture.

Where in that article you linked to is he referring to deciding on a saddle tree size to get within tolerances to fit the horse? He talks about it early in the article but has never given any of the criteria he uses here or anyplace else that article was published. I am actually kind of surprised his article is even on that site, pretty much word for word what he wrote for the LCSJ. I thought they bought the first NA rights for any articles they published. He talks about buying shoes and backpack frames. At least with those, they come in different sizes and you try them on first before you take off on the hike. Unless he has built on the exact same size tree since the beginning, he has chosen a tree he figures fits the type of horse the rider is saddling. I would consider that to be "fitting" as much as many of us do. He seems to go to great lengths to explain every factor of not fitting but anything to do with the saddlemaker. Looks like he wouldn't consider the narrow front, saddle sitting up high, bridging, too flat back pad angles, pressure on the inside saddle tree experience you had as anything but your fault or your horse's, not the tree or his choice to put it in a saddle for your horse. That looks as close as he gets to choosing a tree, the owner is responsible. There are many legitimate points he made there that affect fit. The saddle is the part he mostly left out.

Not as many of us are talking about "perfect" as he appears to want me to believe. I'd agree that perfect isn't going to happen. We just want to get closer the first time.

[Denise]

Joanna,

Sorry, didn't read back far enough again to see the type of saddle. I would be surprised if a flex tree were used in a saddle that might be used for roping. The reason I asked is that the shape of the back of the bars is so different from most traditional bars I have seen so I just wondered why and that thought came to mind. (Note to self: read and think before typing...)

Just FYI in case you haven't had a chance to really look at a tree, here is a picture of a more typically shaped back bar pad. You can see it is not square but tapered so it is not as likely to interfere at the hip when turning as it would if it were more square.

The rear part of the bar doesn't have enought angle on them. So all the pressure is on the inside of the bar.

Mort, if the inside of a bar is sitting on the horse too heavily, it is because there is too much angle, not too little. Too little angle and the outside edges dig in.

[Traveller]

Denise, when I'm at the barn on Friday, I'll feel the edges of the bars and then mark them with green tape. Hopefully that will help.

And Bruce, I took this picture of the lacing behind the skirts. I don't know if it gives much in the way of information or answers any of your questions, but here 'tis:

Thanks again, all!

[bruce johnson]

Traveler,

I think I am getting closer in my mind. It doesn't answer one question, but answers a whole lot more. I was wondering if the skirts are held together or in place from the bottom under the cantle gullet. What this picture does tell me is - pocketed bars, loose strings, and gives me a frame of reference for just how thick that pad might be.

With minimal blocking, those bars don't have a place to "set into" all the way around. The skirts are held up to the bars by those pockets sewn to the skirts over the bar ends. If those pockets stretch in the least, don't fit tight to start with, or the stitching stretches - room for sliding around. I have dropped the skirts on some and found the rawhide worn or completely abraded off and the wood polished from dust and grit working in under there from that setup. There can be that much movement. A lot of guys do a good job of putting on pocketed bars. I can about bet these are hit and miss.

The off string is loose. If it even went through the bars to start with, it isn't holding the skirts up to the bars now. I would wager with this saddle it is probably throught the rear jockey only. On the $500 specials, it might be through the leather concho only and nailed on.

How thick is the pad? With your fingers and that edge of the skirts lifted now for reference, I am thinking 1-1/4"?

Now my thoughts as to why this problem is getting worse as the horse is apparently improving. It has nothing to do with the horse. It has to do with the saddle breaking in, things stretching, and getting looser as time goes on.

[Traveller]

Bruce, do you think the saddle would be worth taking to someone for a tune-up? Or are the raw materials possibly not good enough to begin with? I don't want to put a whole lot of money into it but I need a saddle to ride in and since I'm not in a position to order a custom saddle right away and the horse isn't objecting to this one (not yet, anyway!), it would be great to get the one I've got going properly.

Joanne

[Blake]

Bruce, do you think the saddle would be worth taking to someone for a tune-up? Or are the raw materials possibly not good enough to begin with? I don't want to put a whole lot of money into it but I need a saddle to ride in and since I'm not in a position to order a custom saddle right away and the horse isn't objecting to this one (not yet, anyway!), it would be great to get the one I've got going properly.

Joanne

Hello Joanne

You have some excellent Saddle Makers in Canada and some are on this forum.

Why not consider shipping the saddle to one of them to at least evaluate the saddle and recommend what might be done to correct some of the issues and make it more user friendly until the day comes that you can get your dream saddle.

The resources available here on the forum are pretty awesome and by putting the saddle in one of these peoples hands that can evaluate the saddle first hand and share the findings if something is encountered with a questionable fix would in my opinion be the best way for you to go at this point. It will probably also be the most economical in the long run too because it will be done and over.

My 2 Pesos

Blake

[bruce johnson]

Joanne,

I agree with Blake. I wouldn't trash it or take a big hit on it. I'd get it to someone and let them take a look and feel. These are not uncommon things to see on saddles of several price levels.

If what I think I see is real, yeah they are fixable to a great degree. The skirts can be laced together further forward. They can be wet and reblocked. The skirt attachments can be tightened up or replaced with lugs depending on the saddle repair guy's comfort level with one or the other.

If this is a true tree won't fit this horse deal, then it might help some but won't solve your problem. But again, going back to the history here. If you had a serious fit problem, I think things would have gone south on you before now, more severely. and in different places.

I had an email today from someone asking if it was possible to block skirts with the wool is on after seeing this thread. I have seen it done as have Mike, Brent, David, and anyone else who has done saddle week. One of the instructors routinely does it. I don't do it except as a repair deal, but you can. JW and I were talking on the phone a few days ago about the old time saddles that weren't blocked. One of my old pals told me about that. A lot of those old mailorder saddles weren't blocked when you got them - flat skirts with the tree sitting up proud , the stirrup leathers weren't turned either. Most have probably heard grandpa talking about "taking that new saddle and soaking it in the horse trough, riding it until it was dry, then oil it". It was a for real deal - soak the leather and as you rode it, the bars sunk into the skirts and blocked, the skirts molded to the horse, and the leathers turned and set.

[Traveller]

Thanks Blake and Bruce, I'll do that. Darc Kabatoff from this forum e-mailed me with info on how to best block the skirts so I'll give that a shot first. I don't think the saddle is a terrible fit or, as you say Bruce, it would have been a bigger problem than just some rubbed hairs (my horse has already proven that he's willing to buck under a poor-fitting saddle!).

I'll still outline the tree shape to satisfy my curiosity (thanks for that, Denise!) and will post those pictures.

This has been a very helpful thread!

[StolpSaddles]

Joanne

I read this tread a little late but if you bring the saddle around to my place I will have a look at it. Sounds like you are not far away

Ron

Ps if you do not get this thread I will talk to you next week or at the Kamloops festival

[Traveller]

I actually sold the saddle tonight! I'm sure it'll be a good one for the guy who bought it, as it was very good for me for about six months... until it wasn't.

See you (and others!) at the Kamloops Cowboy Festival this weekend.

[Echo4V]

I may be too late but I just found this thread. I think a lot of your problem could be that saddle pad. Here are my reasons...

1 you live in Canada ( where it gets cold) and the whole time you had problems was during the winter.

2 gel impact saddle pad

3 cold gel pockets are about equal to putting a rock under your saddle

I have seen these pads cause sore backs and back sores. I know you sold the saddle but if your next saddle gives you any issue try changing out the pad with a plain felted wool pad.

David

[Traveller]

Hi David,

Thanks for weighing in! I'm definitely going to an all-wool pad, though I don't think the gel was the entire cause of the problem. The gel pockets are only at the front of the saddle and the rubbing was at the back. Plus, fortunately for me, I live in the "warm" part of Canada and was riding in an indoor arena, so it wasn't all that cold (kind of like riding in fall weather, for the most part). I think in this case, it was a simple case of poor saddle fit.

However I do think that the gel doesn't do the horse any favours and, thanks to you folks here, have been convinced of the superiority of full wool for my next saddle.

Now to find the next saddle....

Joanne

[colttrainer]

Joanne

I have been reading all the advice you are getting. Some good some total B.S.

First with out seeing the horse in person all you are going to get, is guesses. Bruce has the best advice that I have seen so far on here, some others are along the same idea.

My advice comes from training horses for over 30 years for a living. 1st leave the lacing alone, never been a problem. 2nd take the thin pad and turf it, & while you are at it your gel pad can go with it (a pad as it has been pointed out needs to take the sweat away from the back). Go and by a good pad with wear bars on it, I like ones made from alpaca or a natural wool of some sort, I also use felt ones. Put on a good roping cinch, again natural fiber. Use your flank cinch, it should be pulled up snug not tight but snug ( don't want a hind foot in it, are a branch running between it & him) it will also keep the rear of the saddle where it belongs. Your front cinch should be tight enough to keep that saddle from moving around (side to side) if you are always having to shift your saddle it is to loose &, or he my be lacking in the wither department. Now this is my proffesional opinion, Have 2 saddles that I prefer to use, I ride many many different horses & have never had a problem with a sore back or hair rubbing off.

Al