Gasping, grasping, pawing, and clawing

[monicaj]

Sounds maybe dramatic but it's accurate.  

Before I get into the extremity of my anxiety, I need to say that the expertise and talent on this site is overwhelming and spectacular.  Also depressing because I desire so much to reach the level of skill I see here and I don't see how I can achieve that without apprenticing in person with a master.  There's a wealth of info online but sometimes I need hands on with someone.  The skills I see here blow me away.

Anxiety... I'm trying to understand leather products and I'm getting more confused.  Yesterday I did a couple of tests, thinking that I'd come out of it with knowledge, but it just made things worse.

The first test I did was to compare 12 products just to see how they darken leather and make the leather feel.  The products I used that are conditioners or preservatives are Neatsfoot Compound (I wouldn't even have bothered with it if I had had Pure Neatsfoot oil on hand), Leather Therapy, Lexol Leather Conditioner, Lexol NF Leather Dressing (non darkening), Beesbutter, Heavy Duty LP, and Atom Wax.  (I also threw on some virgin coconut oil just to see what would happen.) 

The LP was a little weird, took really long to dry/soak in.  The beesbutter felt pretty filmy for a long time until it soaked in more.  I thought I would notice the leather feeling super soft with the products but I really didn't.  And also, I guess after a few more days the oils will lighten up a bit?

That test didn't confuse me too bad.  I just wonder why both Lexol's look about the same.  The non-darkening one darkened just about as much as the other.  

I also wanted to if some of the acrylics products darkened leather and in that test I used Angelus Satin Acrylic Finisher, Resolene, Eco Flo Satin Shene, and Eco Flo Super Shene.  Only put on about 2 coats each, 20 minutes between coats (not long enough?).  With that test, I let the 2 coats dry for about a half hour (not long enough?) and took some Fiebings Antique Finish and rubbed it on bottom half to see if the resist would resist.  Resolene worked best in that case.  Also, the diagonal line that runs through the top and bottom of the test was me seeing what denatured alcohol would do on a q-tip... if it would take away the shine of the resist (thinking that I'd later test and see if I could take a finish off with denatured alcohol to let dye absorb in a case of if I wanted to change the color slightly of the existing dye).  I was surprised that the den. alcohol cut through both the acrylic and the antiquing stain.

Here is the final test... the one that about destroyed me.  The scrap leather looks a mess from all the stuff I did to it to experiment and I'm going to try my hardest to explain it.

 

I wanted to test the 4 products I was using as a resist, as well as 3 different antiquing stains... Eco Flo gel antique, Fiebings Black Antique Leather Stain, and Fiebings Antique Finish (a paste).  That test were on the top half of the leather.  On the bottom half, I wanted to play with removing the resist with denatured alcohol and try an idea of putting stain on top of the leather, while leaving the stamped letters free of stain.

As you guys probably could have told me, trying to take off all the resist with denatured alcohol was messy and not efficient.  But I was surprised that when I put the stain (Fiebings Antique Finish, paste) on after getting most of the resist off, the stain had NO PROBLEM wiping right off with a wet rag.  I don't understand. Shouldn't the leather have absorbed the stain?  OR... is paste different than stain?  Am I not understanding the properties of that?

The bottom half of the test doesn't take much of my focus right now though because I've already decided never to put on an acrylic finish then try to take it off.

The top half...  in each section, EXCEPT for the Angelus Satin Acrylic Finish section, you can see a reddish strip. That's where I put the Eco Flo Gel Antique (mahogany color).  It stained all the way through the resist.  The 2 Fiebing products I used on the right side of the sections were much better.  

I put 2 strips of paint in between the Resolene and Angelus sections.  The white paint is matt acrylic paint, and the green is Lumier.  I wanted to see if the paints would resist stain.  The white didn't, and the green might have.  It wasn't noticeable. 

One of my questions is this:  if the resists are acrylic, wouldn't it be the acrylic part that does the resist action?  Would the white acrylic paint have resisted stain if it had been gloss?  Acrylic.  I know it's water based but I thought that when it dries (and I thought it dries quickly) that it becomes like a plastic, making it resistant to water.  But it's not resistant to alcohol products then?

The other question... when I used a rag and wiped pretty hard on the white paint, it wiped right off the leather.  So I was curious and tried wiping a glossy part of the Resolene.  It wiped right off.  I thought this stuff would be partially absorbed into the leather and not just wipe right off.  I wondered if I contaminated the test by not cleaning the leather first.  Then it wasn't until today that I thought to try to rub off one of the other products.  I tried rubbing off the Satin Shene but it held.  So I went back to the Resolene, tried rubbing another spot.  It held.  So do those resists really need at least 24 hours to dry?

You can see on the bottom half at the right, I played with dye.  (Fiebings Oil Dye)  At the very right edge, I was curious to see if the green dye could be removed with denatured alcohol.  It could.  So another confusion... does the denatured alcohol reactive the alcohol in the dye and that's why it can come off?

I'm so sorry to be confusing.  I know I should have taken time to really clarify my questions, but I'm just so disappointed and confused that I was hoping you guys could make sense of me and give clarification.

Really new to leather, but love it.  And I know whatever I make loses value if I don't learn the properties of leather and the products to use on it.

[Ferg]

You need to know what you are delving into but I think you are beginning leather work at the wrong end. lol

Do some research on types of leather to be used for different things. Get a copy of one of Al Stohlman's books on beginning leather craft (available at all Tandy Stores and on-line.) Work on tooling etc. on some scrap. If you don't have any Veg Tanned scrap, that is available most anywhere also.

Ask many questions and read all you can find, then understand what you read.

Ferg

 

[billybopp]

Leather dyes, paints and finishes can indeed be a complex maze to navigate.  There are a lot of products and ways to apply them all with different properties.  Combine them in differing combinations and the number of results can be astounding.   The best thing that you can do  when working on a project, until you learn what works best for you, is to experiment on a scrap piece of leather from your project.  

A few general pointers, tho ..

With all dyes and paints in leather, some colors cover better than others .. you mostly have to experiment to find what works best there.

There are essentially two types of dyes, which mostly soak into the leather.  Spirit (alcohol) based such as Fiebings dye and fiebings pro, and water based such as eco-flo.  The spirit based dyes penetrate a little bit better and can be thinned with alcohol, and will yield nice colors, although generally a bit muted.  Water based dyes tend to be somewhat brighter, and can be thinned with water if necessary. 

Paints are almost all water based acrylics.  They adhere to the leather and mostly sit on the surface, and will yield the most vibrant colors.  Acrylics made for leather tend to adhere better than those not made for leather.  I've done some work with liquitex artist acrylics, and they don't stick as well as the stuff that's designed for leather .. but they do stick well when used atop the leather acrylics.  To get really bright colors, you sometimes need to put a coat of white on before the colors, although some folks suggest mixing white with the color that you're using.  Yellows, for example, are almost always translucent so have to have an undercoat to show well.  Sometimes, you can use that translucent quality to your advantage too!

I don't know anything about antique stain since I've never used it, but the antique gel and paste are mostly meant to fill in low spots to give a sort of two tone .. .well .. antique look!  It can really bring out the 3-D quality of tooling.  The Tandy antique gel does a nice job as a regular dye, and does tend to color at least the acrylic finishes a little, which can be used to your advantage.  Fiebings antique paste has only slight effect as a dye, and mostly just settles into low spots .. Sometimes including pores in the leather.  To confuse things even further, there are Hi-lighters, which are very thin and will flow into low spots, but I haven't really used them yet.

Where finishes are concerned, you've experimented with mostly acrylics as finish and resist.  They mostly work well as both, are water based, and can be thinned with either water or with some a thinning medium.  Note that matte finishes have a little bit of "grit" in them to scatter light giving that matte look.  That grit also can give a slightly (microscopic) bumpy finish, which antiques and other things will stick to, and may darken a bit more than shiny finishes.  There are also other classes of finish/resist which are lacquer based.  Many folks like the lacquer based finishes such as ClearLac/NeatLac, etc, but I haven't really used them yet.

Acrylics tend to be best when you do multiple coats, leaving just a several minutes between so that they will bond together while still not completely dry.  When using as a resist, I tend to let them dry at least overnight.

If you need a COMPLETE resist, liquid latex over an acrylic can work quite nicely.

You could write books on this subject, but above are a few highlights.  Remember that the leather itself is also part of these techniques, so best practice is to try what you think will work on a similarly tooled piece of scrap from the project that you are working on!

Also .. if you would, please clarify .. Did you try the antique gel on Angelus?  If so, it looks like that might be a really good resist for gel! (if that's what you need).

 

Hope that helps

Bill

 

[monicaj]

Yeah, I know.  I'm kinda bouncing around all over the place with it.  I've done some tooling to see what it's like, but have a LOT of practicing to do.  So far I haven't succeeded in doing any tooling that doesn't look crappy to me.  I also need more stamps.

 

 

 

And I did a little pyrography to see what it was like, but I have a lot of practicing to do.  I'm decent at drawing, so I think once I get a feel for the pyrography pens and the leather, I might be able to do something decent.

 

 

One thing I really want to nail down is embedding stones so, when I learn to make boxes, I can incorporate stones into the designs.  I haven't succeeded making them the way I want them to be. Because I can't find much on it on the net.  I've seen AWESOME imbeds... but for the ones I like, I can't figure out how they did it. 

gn.  

 

I really think I'll only want to work with veg tan leather.  But I'll have to learn to put in liners at some point so I guess I'll be using different leather then.  I've put off delving into sewing because I dread it.  Some day I'll face that dread, but I'd really like to understand finishes, conditioners, etc. before learning to sew.  These sheaths are just for a couple skivers... and they aren't really that good and the stitches suck.  I don't really know if making sheaths is something I want to do, but I have to get the hang of sewing.

Been giving things out to friends and family without understanding the finishes and products that I'm using, so I tried researching and became overwhelmed with the information out there.  So I did tests.  And now I have questions.

[monicaj]

Billybopp, you and I were hitting the submit button at the same time.  I'm going to go back and read what you wrote, but wanted to first thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions.

[monicaj]

Bill, yes I did use the gel on the Angelus and couldn't believe it didn't stain it like it did the others.  Also, another difference, was that when I was wiping off the antique paste, the resolene, compared to the others, didn't feel as smooth.  It felt more draggy.  I know that's not really important as long as it works... but it just didn't seem as easy to get the gunk off the resolene as the other 3.  

[Chopinzee]

I don't have a ton of info to add, but wanted to thank you for posting the results of your test; I'm about to start exploring using dyes on my leather and this was very helpful to me.  Also, your stuff looks beautiful--love the journals!

[monicaj]

Thank you Chopinzee.  Your compliment is very much appreciated!  I'm really new too and have so much to learn.

[Chopinzee]

I was doing some more research and came across this site--http://www.johan-potgieter.com/ll/?cat=8.  He's done some tests similar to these; scroll down to get to the coloring/finishing part, it's definitely worth checking out!