First Saddle Design

[HannahT]

Hello everybody!

I'm looking forward to starting my first saddle, and I'd like some advice. I've been doing leatherwork for a little while now, but I've never attempted a saddle. What style of tree/rigging/etc. will be the best for me to start on? I obviously want to make something that works, but what is least likely to get me in big trouble halfway through? I have my eye on Sonny Felkins' Quality Mfg trees, and I'm hoping I can describe the kinds of horses I ride most often to him so he can make me a tree that fits most of them. I have the Al Stohlman books and am reading them, pretty much word for word. I like a smaller round skirt with either flat plate or in-skirt rigging, and I'm looking at either a wade tree or something like a bowman. This will probably end up being my personal saddle (I like trail riding and occasionally get the chance to do some ranch work). Am I heading in the right direction?

I'm also curious about strainer plates vs. leather seats, and whether I can do a narrower Cheyenne roll than normal because I don't care for the look of a really wide one.

Edited October 17, 2016 by HannahT

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Hello Hannah. What I recommend for your first build and what I like to ride are two different things.  A slick fork is sure easier to fit up than a swell fork, even though I really don't like riding a slick fork. I grew up riding swell forks and still prefer them. Some people never do get the hang of putting in nice-looking welts, and if you can eliminate that step in your first one, it will save you some aggravation.  I would avoid an in-skirt rig for your first one, even though it is my preferred rigging style for my own use.  They are a little more complicated to build than either a flat plate or dee ring rig. In a way, with an in-skirt, you are combining two major steps in the process into one that is more complicated than either of the two steps by themselves, and it took me quite a few before I came up with patterns and a sequence that worked well for me, and it is NOT the way the Stohlmans do it!  The Stohlman books are good and I wish I'd had them starting out, but it seems they go out of their way to make some things more difficult than they need to be. 

I experimented quite a bit with ground seats before I settled into the way I do it now, and I never say I'll never change it.  I tried a couple all-leather ground seats. My thoughts are this: I think I can get a closer, narrower, less bulky ground seat using a strainer. All-leather adds weight, and I feel that if I skived it down as thin as I wanted to in order to get the seat I wanted, it would compromise the strength. However, many builders much more experienced and better than myself use that method successfully.  I also experimented with a two-piece metal strainer, but have come back to a standard one- piece metal using risers so I don't have to cut stirrup slots. I have seen so many old saddles, even by reputable makers, where the rawhide was scored cutting the slots and with time it spilt apart, weakening the tree in that area.

A narrow Cheyenne roll is easier than a wide one, and I like the look of them also. I was surprised at how easy it was when I built my first narrow roll.

 It will take you a few saddles to develop your own rhythm and style of building. Hopefully you'll hear from Keith Seidel or one or the others who has reached the level of a master of the craft. Best of luck and keep us posted.

[oltoot]

What he said with a little extra to think about. Skirt rigs require some sewing experience to get them right whereas a plate rig is pretty much straightforward and well within the capacity of any good machine. And with a good set of buck rolls you will have most of what a swell fork provides without the weight. Sonny Felkins is a great choice IMHO.

[HannahT]

Great advice. Now I'm going to ask something that may make you all think I'm crazy. I know Hermann Oak is the best to use, and Wickett & Craig is pretty close. I've used W&C before and it's gorgeous. But for a first saddle, since I just KNOW I'm going to make about a thousand mistakes, would it be okay to use Tandy skirting, at least for part of the saddle? If it won't work, I won't use it. I just thought I might be able to use the side I have for stuff like the ground seat, horn covering, maybe the fenders or something.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Please do not use the Tandy skirting for anything that matters!  When I built my very first saddle, I had no other resources other than Tandy.  I had no account at Weaver, didn't even know they existed, had no idea that I could buy direct from HO, and even if I had, the minimum order would have been impossible at that point.  I don't think Wickett was even in the US at that time.  I still have that first saddle, built with Tandy skirting.  I've taken pretty good care of it, in that it gets oiled periodically, but I wish I had used good leather. For one thing, HO and Wickett are so much easier to work than cheap imported stuff.  I don't know if it's the tannage, or If all the stretch and moldability has been taken out of the inferior brands, but it does not work up as nicely or easily as the good stuff tanned here in the US. Also, poorer, cheaper leather tends to grow mold and mildew much quicker than the better stuff.  It does not respond to reconditioning as well either. I got a saddle in last winter that I built back in the early 2000's. The owner brought it in for a clean and oil and ordered another. This saddle had never been oiled since it left my shop when it was new and had dried cow manure on the flank cinch and billets, fenders and stirrup leathers and it had been there for awhile.  I like getting my work back after it's been used for years. It allows me to evaluate my methods and materials.  I was amazed at how well the leather responded to careful reconditioning.  Cheap leather will not "come back" like that saddle did.  If you wish, I suppose it wouldn't make any difference to use what you have in the ground seat, except it would drive me crazy knowing that I did!  I would not use it for anything that shows or where durability (such as fenders) is important. Just my opinion:-).  Leather that is a little lighter in weight might make sense for your first one as it will be easier to work.  So many people think heavy=quality and that is just not true.  Use good sense when cutting and use the right leather for the right parts and you'll get by a little lighter. Plus it'll be lighter to throw up on a horse;-)

[cowboycolonel]

Hannah,

 

Here's a lengthy answer from one guy's perspective.  When I built my first saddle (out of Al Stohlman's books) I chose a Wade tree because I wanted to eliminate as many variables as I could, ande thus could cut the cost of my learning.  I used a Bowden Tree because of availability, reputation, and cost, figuring... well, what if I make a mistake.  I studied the different types of rigging that I'd seen (I'd been repairing for about ten years before I decided to build) and chose Flat plate rigging for several reasons.  It's stronger than in-skirt.  It's straight forward, requiring fewer measurements, and if you have to tear it out and replace it, it won't cause a total re-build and possibly re-design of the saddle. 

One of the best, first lessons I learned was to talk to someone who has already built several saddles.  Yeah, I know there are videos out there, but they don't answer most of the questions that a first-timer might have.  For example, I decided to build everything out of leveled skirting, and started following Stohlman's recipe by cutting the gullet cover -- out of prime leather.  After cutting out six of these, I decided to ask a maker and he told me that the gullet should be cut from the stretchy leather from near the belly - and unless it's going to be tooled, it doesn't make much difference how thick it is, because all it does is cover the tree - no weight or stress.

I also fell into the trap that Sioux spoke about -- equating thickness with strength.  Not True!!!  Just like plywood, two layers can be stronger than one. Now I use 11/12 for riggings backed by 8/9.  No need to go for 15 oz leather that's hard to work with -- especially for Saddle #1.

I agree with Sioux on choice of suppliers as well.  It might just be that the leather you get from Tandy will work and nobody else will know -- but you will always know, and you won't be as proud of your work.  First saddles are not cheap!  My first too 5 sides of leather and about six months.  That's because I had no idea where I could recover or where the measurements were a bit less critical.  Now I use two sides and build in about 100 hours, exclusive of tooling.  I can build heavy on demand, but a working saddle (just like the one I live in for up to eight hours a day at times) comes in at about 33 pounds, and that's great for a saddle you rope and brand calves out of. 

I heartily suggest that you do the following.  Even if you're only intending to build one saddle, buy a maker's stamp.  Buy a quality tree, quality leather, and quality hardware.  Then take as long as it takes to do a job you'll be proud to show off and put your stamp where it proclaims that this is your work and you're proud of it. Even if you have to tear out a stitch line a few times, make it something you'd want to show off. If you need help and no maker is available to you locally, then get back to this site and post your questions,  You won't find a more handy resource. 

Squawk if you need help.  Good luck, and happy building.

 

[cowboycolonel]

Oops, forgot to address the cantle question.  My first saddle, and most I've built since then, had a straight up cantle - no Cheyenne roll.  Not only do I like the buckaroo look, but again, it eliminates several variables.  Primarily, when you go to add the binding, you will find the corners VERY difficult to stitch, and even more difficult with a Cheyenne roll because you will be working in the blind for more of the time.  I prefer a straight up cantle with a rawhide binding, but if I'm going to bind with leather, then I use a blind stitch so the back stitches don't show.  When someone rides up behind you, that stitch line will scream at them if it is other than perfect, and it doesn't take more than one bad stitch to make it so. 

I make with either a full leather seat or with a two-piece strainer, which I make.  Both approaches have advantages,, but I don't find the use of leather to be necessarily too much heavier.  I would caution you to stay away from rawhide though -- too fiddly for a beginner and takes too long to dry properly.  I don't cut holes/slots for stirrup leathers, but take them into account while building the ground seat, so I don't have the problem that Sioux mentioned about scoring the rawhide. 

 

If you think you are going to ride this saddle on your horses, then make a jig -- I can tell you how -- and send it to Arlen down at Bowden saddletree.  He'll work with you to get it right, and if you need to go to a custom tree. the marginal cost is only about $35. If you want to take a flyer, just buy a tree that you like the looks of and use it as a learning tool,.  If you've done quality work, you'll probably be able to sell it.  But if you've done great work, you won't want to.

[HannahT]

You guys are really clearing up some stuff for me. Cowboycolonel, a jig would be wonderful. I do intend to use this saddle myself, and right now I'm working part time and thought I'd have plenty of time to build one (but unfortunately not a whole lot of extra cash). I'm getting REALLY tired of production saddles, and I want something that makes me and my horses happy. Burning through 5 sides of Hermann Oak or Wickett & Craig scares me... Hopefully I can glean enough from everybody on here so I won't make too many huge mistakes. Have you ever used the pre-dyed skirting from W&C before? I'm wondering if it would save me some dye money and trouble of trying to get my dye even.

[cowboycolonel]

I have used pre-dyed stuff, but I usually end up tooling the leather, and then you have to antique it or hi-lite it to make the carving pop.  Dye is not that expensive when you're talking about a saddle, is it?  It only takes a quart.  That's negligible when compared to the other costs.  Again, referring back to my first, I used Fiebing's Antique Mahogany.  Very forgiving when it comes to getting an even finish and if everything goes south, you can always cover it with a proper dye. 

I could type something up here, but I would just be repeating what Bowden has on hand.  Call 915-877-3191 and ask them to send you instructions for measuring your horse for a tree,  If it turns out that your horse is "nominal" they won't charge you custom prices, and if you get a stock tree that you don't like, you can return it for the cost of the shipping.  Bowden is wonderful do deal with.  Website www.saddletree,com for choices on stock trees.

There's no need for you to use up 5 sides.  I did because I had to invent my own wheel at every piece.  With Leatherworkers.net at your disposal, you should be able to get by with 3 or less.  Do you have a supplier near you where you can look at the leather beforehand?  Are you going to tool the leather? Smooth or rough out? Halfbreed? 

Maybe you could share what your "dream saddle" looks like and we can be of more help?

 

[HannahT]

 I'm thinking about roughout in the seat only, and the rest a very dark brown (maybe Fiebing's show brown). Either a wade or a roper bowman, with a round skirt like the wades usually have or maybe a bit smaller, and a mulehide wrapped horn. I want to tool oak leaves and acorns on the jockeys, fenders, etc. if I'm brave. I haven't done much tooling. I love the idea of a rawhide cantle binding. The only reason I thought about Cheyenne rolls is because it's easier for me to get it up on my horse (I saddle up like Clinton Anderson).

[cowboycolonel]

Hannah,

 

This is going to sound daunting, but it really isn’t.  Just read through the instructions once or twice and then contact me if you need to.

 

Get a 24-inch long flexible curve from your hardware store or a woodworking shop.  They are made to hold the shape you put them in.

 

Put a piece of masking (Blue painters’ tape is great) tape in the center of the flexible curve to mark the center. 

 

Put a Flex-curve on the horse where the center of the fork (fore and aft) should sit.  This should approximate a line upward from her armpit – where the cinch will go.  In reality the tree maker will read this as the center of the fork.  Mark this line with a long piece of tape. Once you have the flex-curve centered on your horse’s back, use BOTH hands and mold the curve to the shape of her withers.

 

Remove the flex-curve being very careful NOT to alter the shape!  Lay it down carefully on a large piece of cardboard or stiff paper.  Be careful not to let it slip, and draw around the inside of the curve after marking the center on the cardboard. 

 

Place the Flex-curve back on the horse 15 inches behind the tape mark, and form it to fit her back just like you did the first one.

 

Remove it and place it on the cardboard and trace around the inside again.

 

Send the cardboard to Bowden and they’ll know what to do.

 

If you have a specific horse in mind for this saddle, it would be good to take a photo of her making certain that the light and shadows show the withers and back (highlights), shadows and form.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

If you are wanting a dark brown finished saddle, do yourself a big favor and get drum dyed skirting. I use just as much dyed skirting as I do natural some years.  Antiquing the tooling is a whole lot easier than dying the whole saddle.  For years I didn't use dyed skirting on something I knew I was going to tool for the reason that all the tooling cuts would show raw, undyed leather. Once I figured out that I could antique the leather to remedy this after applying a resist, I never dyed a piece of skirting again. Realize that if you use dyed skirting, you will still have to dye the edges, which is a job I hate.  It adds a lot more time to a saddle having to dye every edge, as well as finish them. 

Not to be discouraging, but if you haven't done much tooling, maybe a saddle isn't the place to practice?  Or do some more tooling before you get to that point on your saddle?  If you plan to build more than one (even people who just plan to build one end up building another, and another, etc, etc) I would build the first one plain.  I wanted EVERYTHING in the first saddle I built.  And then I considered resale. . . if I ever wanted to sell it, what would other people want? In the end, the saddle turned out to be a hodgepodge of a lot of different things and not really a great saddle for any one thing.   

I'm going to disagree with the Colonel on the cantle binding. Personally, I HATE rawhide bindings. Rawhide can be a bitch to work; moisture content is VERY finicky, it's difficult to skive. Seems like if it's wet enough to work easily, it wants to shrink too much upon drying and then the stitches are loose.  If you want to save aggravation on this first one, I'd avoid it.  I've heard that a rawhide binding won't last as long and is not as durable as leather.  I'm not totally convinced of that but it IS a pain in the rear to work. I think if you use rawhide that is thin enough to work easily, then durability and longevity is sacrificed.  A short roll is not at all difficult to install.  The leather that the roll cover is cut from needs to be chosen very carefully, and then you skive, skive, skive!  Most people that have trouble with a Cheyenne roll do not skive enough off.  I am not a good teacher and have trouble explaining things, but I would highly recommend getting Cary Schwarz's videos.  There is not enough information in them to build a saddle if you've never built one, but they do contain some very valuable information and they are not expensive. Hearing him explain and watching him install a cantle binding helped me a lot. Cary is a very good teacher, although his voice puts me to sleep:-)  I agree that if at all possible, enlist the help of someone with some experience, even if you have to compensate them.  To do it all over again, I think I would attend a good saddle making school right off.  Not that you learn everything you need to know in one, but it would have saved years of learning by trial and error to have some hands-on instruction. Didn't the Colonel mention something about having to reinvent the wheel?     If funds are tight that is probably not an option and I understand that.  I guess that's when you turn to the forum.  There is so much more information available now than when I built my first saddle.  In all honesty, I'm amazed by some of the first efforts I've seen here.  There are some really nice looking first saddles that folks have built with the books and videos now available.

 

[cowboycolonel]

I came back to discuss the issue of a rawhide binding, but it looks like Sioux beat me to it.  Yes, moisture is important, as is having a uniform thickness. But I really like the look, and durability is an issue especially when you live or ride in areas with a lot of rain/humidity.  If you are in coastal Oregon, stay away from rawhide.  Here on teh central coast of California, I use it because I like it to match the horn binding and I use rawhide there to prevent the rope from burning through the seam when you miss a dally.  What!  I'm the only guy that ever missed a dally? Also it keeps from wrecking the cantle if a calf runs behind you and the rope runs over the cantle edge.  Some folks I know in western Nevada will not have rawhide anywhere because of moisture,  Here's a picture of a Cliff Wade I made for a lady near here.  Rough seat and fenders, but all else tooled.  Remember, if you pay attention to the design space, you do not need to tool the whole area to have it look tasteful.  An oak leaf and pair of acorns at the corner of the fender can look better than having the entire fender tooled.

[HannahT]

That's a beautiful saddle. Unfortunately moisture is a problem here in Kentucky--I've had saddles start to mold just sitting in the tack room. I think you're right about not going wild with the tooling. I think I'll practice on the piece of Tandy skirting I have, and do some round knife practice while I'm at it. Maybe I'll tool a little piece somewhere and leave the rest plain, or more likely with some border stamping. Maybe I could tool a little piece for the top of the horn. Sioux, I may go with W&C drum-dyed skirting, partly because they have such nice colors and partly because I'm usually too lazy to put gloves on when I'm dyeing and end up going to work with brown streaks all over my hands  Colonel, I'm definitely going to get measurements & pictures of all the horses I ride regularly. And I may go with SOME rawhide, atleast, even if I have to keep this thing in the house. I really wish I could pick a saddlemaker's brain in person and watch him work, but not many people do or own custom saddles around here (a Circle Y is about as good as it gets). Who knows--maybe I'll change that someday.

[oltoot]

From using, repairing, making; Rawhide holds up better in all but the most humid climes but it is more demanding to work with. Once you start,you have to carry through to finish which adds a little demand in learning to sew a cantle binding, straight up or Cheyenne roll but maybe you should settle for comfort in completion for your first and try rawhide after you have sewn a cantle binding or 2. 

[HannahT]

This is just what I needed-somebody to tone down my enthusiasm. Otherwise I would've ended up with something half finished sitting in the basement somewhere that I was too overwhelmed to finish. My saddle design is changing, but I'm much more confident about it.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

I agree with Oltoot, get a couple simple ones under your belt and then try more complicated things on later ones. There are enough snags to run into without looking for them.  A saddle CAN be an overwhelming project, especially if you work a day job and don't get regular time to work on it. I think it took me two years to complete my first one. I was working and had two small children. It was very difficult to find several hours of uninterrupted time to work on it. Again, good luck, we look forward to seeing your progress.

[HannahT]

Thank you, and I really appreciate hearing from you guys. Not everybody is so willing to share knowledge that has taken so long to get.

[rktaylor]

Hannah,

You have already received a lot of good advice. I am not very far ahead of you on the trail. I am putting the finishing touches on my fourth saddle in about three years. So far for me, it has just been a fun hobby and like Big Sioux said it can be tough to find uninterrupted time to work on it. I have a tree waiting to start my fifth. Maybe I'll have it done before summer. For what it's worth, here's my advice for a first timer (in no particular order).

1. Build a slick fork. I put three welted swell covers on my second saddle before I was happy whereas it only took one on the SF Bowman I built first.

2. Buy three sides of good leather. This should be enough and as oltoot once told me, 'Build a scabbard with the leftover material." If you are particular about your work, you will make some mistakes that you want to do over. I had the same thoughts that you had regarding cheaper leather, but a third of your cost will probably be in the tree. Why cover it up with cheap leather.

3. Try to draw as many of your patterns as possible before you start cutting leather. All the folks who make saddles for a living have walls of patterns and that makes it easier to efficiently use a side of leather. I personally like Saddle Maker's Shop Manual by Harry Adams. It has really good instructions for drawing patterns.

4. Build a good ground seat. You can cover it up, but you can't hide it. Study this as much as possible. I personally think shape is infinitely more important than construction method (but remember, I am no expert).

5. Educate yourself as much as possible, but try to follow one set of instructions as best you can. Just as there are many ways to do it wrong there are also many ways to do it right. It's just that some of the different methods may not go together well.

There's going to be a lot of head scratching and staring into space. Take a deep breath and study some more, post pictures and questions here. Responses usually come quick. I have thoroughly enjoyed learning to build saddles and continuing to learn.

Enjoy the ride,

Randy

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Hannah, I just dropped in to see what is going on here, been off all summer, and saw this thread.  Most of the advice you have gotten from the guys is spot on.  It would have been great to have this forum back when I started but; that was back before dirt was invented   Anyway, if you follow the guys advice you won't go wrong.  Enjoy the ride!

Bob

[HannahT]

Rktaylor, I'd been wondering about following one set of instructions. I'm glad you mentioned it. I'm thinking about following the Stohlman books as close as I can, though I'm going to need a LOT more clarification on ground seats. I'm looking at the Ray Hunt wades--I like of like the shape that I'm seeing on a lot of them. 

[HannahT]

And BondoBob, I'm really seeing what you mean! If I hadn't started asking questions I'd have a HUGE mess on my hands.

[HannahT]

It looks like I'm going to need several pieces of thinner leather, according to the Stohlman instructions. Would you guys say 2 sides of 10-12 oz and another of 8 or 9 would be my best bet? I don't have a splitter myself.

[cowboycolonel]

You have a skiver. 

 

It might do to have someone job the thinner pieces you think you need.  Most saddle shops will have work order residue (you'd call it scrap) that they could cut/send you.  Better than buying a side in the blind. 

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Unless you buy your stirrup leathers pre-cut, you'll want a heavy side, either 13/15 from HO, or 12-14 if you buy from Wickett. I think that is their heaviest weight and sometimes I have a hard time finding a side from heavy enough for stirrup leathers, but when I do, I save it for that only and try not to cut anything else from the top 20 inches or so.  Honestly, if you're putting in a flat plate, the stirrup leathers would be the only thing that you'd need that heavy.  You'll line the flat plate so you can use lighter leather, although cut it out of the prime area.  A regular dee ring rigging would be cut from heavier stuff, but most of the other parts just don't need to be that heavy if they're cut from the correct area of the hide.  I normally get a couple sides of 8-10 in whatever color I'm ordering.  I might not use much of it for the saddle itself, but a lot of times, the customer might want bags, or a headstall, and depending on what the saddle will be used for, I might cut the breastcollar from the 8-10. It's great for belts and lots of little incidental parts like hoof pick holders, breast collar dee chapes to install on the saddle, dee ring chapes to put under rosettes, buck rolls, spur straps, and many other miscellaneous items.  If I was going to order just enough leather for one saddle, from Wickett I'd order an 8-10 and two 12-14's.  HO I'd probably order an 11-13, and two 12-14's or one each of 12-14 and 13-15, depending on if you're going to cut your own stirrup leathers. That would be the one part that I'd job out if I had to.  Color matching can be an issue with leather from different shipments, or sometimes even within the same batch, if you choose to job out some of the other stuff. It's really hard to order only as much leather as you'll need.  Be sure to be very specific with your salesperson when ordering.  It sucks to order three sides and for whatever reason not be able to get a seat out of any of them.