Segma snaps...

[faceOdd]

Hello Leatherworkers!

I taught an Introduction to Leatherworking: Cuff Bracelets class this past weekend. I typically make masks, and when I need to use snaps, Line 24 have always been great. For bracelets, I was thinking the lower profile of Segmas would be better. Having no experience setting them myself, I pulled up a quick YouTube tutorial and we were on our way. To disaster!

We had to pull out about 80% of the snaps we set because they were mangled in the setting process. 

Once we adjusted the amount of force and focused on keeping the driver perpendicular it got a little better, but it seemed like the driver was causing some of the grief.

Aside from ever using them again, what suggestions do you have?

Thank you!

Tamara

faceOdd Wearable Art Masks

 

 

 

 

[TomG]

When I first started leatherwork, I used them almost exclusively for a time.  I found them to be temperamental and pretty fussy about factors like the leather thickness, how hard I set them and whether the setter was perfectly vertical.  Same as you have found. I also had a couple of setters of vaious ages and found differences in which one I was using.

Although I got fairly good a developing a routine, I still had way too high of a redo rate.

Now, in all fairness. I was using them on 2/3 and 3/4 oz leather.  This is actually too thin for what they are intended for. On 5/6 to 7/8, they worked much better.  So, a large part of it was "wrong tool for the job".  But even with the correct thickness, I was still experiencing too much waste.

I also was using Tandy snaps, and the female socket was kind of flimsy. I bought a small package of them recently for a custom request, and found that I could actually move the "ears" with my thumbnail after setting them. 

So, now I use glove snaps for the thinner stuff and line 20 or 24 for the thicker stuff.

Finally, I have heard that using a press and dies reduces the error rate significantly.  But I don't have those dies and am not spending $100 to find out

So, check out the glove snaps if you are using the thinner leather and see if they fit the bill for you.

Later

[faceOdd]

Thank you, Tom!

Tamara

[NVLeatherWorx]

I use them religiously on the thinner leathers as they are more forgiving and versatile than the Line 20 or 24 which are both for thicker leather anyway.  It actually takes very little force or "hammering" to set the Segma's, especially on thinner leather.  I just set 4 about 10 minutes ago on 3 to 4 oz. veg-tan.  These are the snaps that us "old timers" started with so we have had plenty of time to get them figured out.  You may want to take a few and mark them off for use as "practice/sample" and then tinker with them until you find the right balance of "hammering" required to set them the way you are looking to achieve.  They are actually the easiest snaps to set of all of them because they are so basic in their design.  I would just suggest that you practice a bit more and get a good feel and result from them or, if the the leather is thicker (4 to 7 oz.) you can use the Line 20's.

[faceOdd]

Thank you! Is there a better setting tool? I have the Tandy basic glove and Segma set. I'm not ready to give up yet!

Tamara

[NVLeatherWorx]

I have been using the Deluxe Snap and Rivet Setting tools for decades without issue but it isn't necessarily the tool as much as the technique.  I am sure that some here are going to chime in of their use of the hand setting press and this and that die but unless you are looking to spend several hundred dollars on a piece of equipment that you will most likely not use very often the hand setting route is the best way to go.  I have been hand setting for over 40 years and there are days when I can end up setting over 200 assorted rivets and snaps (and those are frequent) without an issue at all.  Just like everything else with this trade, you have to learn how much is required to accomplish what you are looking to do and then refine that until it becomes second nature.  Nobody in this trade or craft has ever just grabbed a swivel knife and created a flawless work of art, they have practiced and continued to learn and refine those skills to create some beautiful works but they would admit themselves that they still have a lot to learn.

[TinkerTailor]

I have noted a big difference in the quality of the materials between snaps myself. Most of the snaps (and other hardware) I have got from Tandy in the recent past have been hard too set due to too thin material. It is the nature of the market these days. Make it JUST strong enough to work, but as cheap as possible. I use snaps from a local guy who buys them 20-40 lbs at a time, from a wholesaler he won't give up, and repackages them. Every size and type work great. I have set his line 20s with a phillips screwdriver and a rock....I imagine he is using Ohio travel Bag or somebody similar. The current owner bought the shop from a guy who had been making handbags and selling leather/hardware for 30 years. He had some connections, let me tell you.....

I would try some snaps from OTB and see if it helps you. Special bonus is they sell in a bunch of finishes sizes and thicknesses, better to match your mask with..

[TomG]

On 10/20/2016 at 5:41 PM, NVLeatherWorx said:

I use them religiously on the thinner leathers as they are more forgiving and versatile than the Line 20 or 24 which are both for thicker leather anyway.  It actually takes very little force or "hammering" to set the Segma's, especially on thinner leather.  I just set 4 about 10 minutes ago on 3 to 4 oz. veg-tan.  These are the snaps that us "old timers" started with so we have had plenty of time to get them figured out.  You may want to take a few and mark them off for use as "practice/sample" and then tinker with them until you find the right balance of "hammering" required to set them the way you are looking to achieve.  They are actually the easiest snaps to set of all of them because they are so basic in their design.  I would just suggest that you practice a bit more and get a good feel and result from them or, if the the leather is thicker (4 to 7 oz.) you can use the Line 20's.

I'll do that.  I have generally been using a 12 oz rawhide maul. I put the cap holder on my slab and hammer until the sound changes from soft to sort of a "tink".  Hard to explain unless you're listening as you hammer... But I still have to fiddle with the female socket.  I have never figured out what I have, as far as setters go. I have 2 setters for these but they are slightly different.  I know there are Line 14's out there, but the difference is not enough for that to be the answer.  Both appear to be Tandy setters.

So, what I wind up doing. is setting as above using the slightly smaller setter and then testing the fit.  I then use the slightly larger setter and gently tap the socket until I get a good snap,  I then snap them together and tap the cap on an anvil to "set it".

If I just set with the smaller setter, I can set the on the anvil but can't get them apart without prying them.  If I use the larger setter, they don't hold well.

I placed an order for some buckles and D-Rings from OTB today and they are sending me a few samples of their Segmas to try.

BUT... They have Size 21 and Size 22.  I have not seen those sizes anywhere else and Google couldn't find them either.

Has anyone heard of these sizes?

[TinkerTailor]

A ligne is an old french measure that equates to 1/40" so my guess would be 20/40= 1 inch. Line(ligne) 14 is 14/40" or 0.350"

This may help.

[NVLeatherWorx]

The official designation for the Segma snap is Line 16. The 21 and 22 that OTB is sending to you relates to the length of the eyelet (this is the post that you set the stud onto); the 21 is 3/16" long and the 22 is 1/8" long (OTB lists it as 4/16" but we all know the math on that one).   OTB has a wide array of snaps to choose from so if you ever order any of them in bulk pay close attention to the lengths of the posts.  Even the Line 20 and Line 24 snaps from them can be customized to length which blows any of the other suppliers out of the water because they only send them out in one size configuration.

 

[TinkerTailor]

43 minutes ago, NVLeatherWorx said:

The official designation for the Segma snap is Line 16. The 21 and 22 that OTB is sending to you relates to the length of the eyelet (this is the post that you set the stud onto); the 21 is 3/16" long and the 22 is 1/8" long (OTB lists it as 4/16" but we all know the math on that one).   OTB has a wide array of snaps to choose from so if you ever order any of them in bulk pay close attention to the lengths of the posts.  Even the Line 20 and Line 24 snaps from them can be customized to length which blows any of the other suppliers out of the water because they only send them out in one size configuration.

 

Yes, the ligne/line designation is for diameter of head.

[TomG]

I did not know a lot of this.  I wondered about the Ligne/Line designations but never took the time to learn the history. 

Thanks for the education!

[TinkerTailor]

I have to apologize, I simplified a bit. A ligne is 1/12 of a french inch which is 1/16 of a US inch officially, and was a common measure in clockmaking.  Button makers used the thickness of a candlewick pounted flat as a ligne, which was closer to 1/40 of an inch. The US chose this as the measure for a line. The ligne is also used to measure hatband width and is closer to 1/11". It's one of those units like horses being so many hands high that has stuck around in only one place just to confuse us.